How do you explain the existence of evil, despite God being almighty, and all knowing, and perfect love?

[Aviel]

Why does God permit or create evil?

I posted this yesterday on another Thread..



God is in a unique position, based on allowing us all : free will.

See, when God allows us to be "like Him" or "made in His image", then He has opted to allow Man to choose what they are going to do.

So, when we see Child Molesting, or when see, Islam or Gay Adoption, being allowed to exist..
When we see a Hitler, or a Ted Bundy, or a School Shooting...... it's because God is allowing them to exist, because every single person, has a right to choose to do what they want.

God created us all as free will moral agents, and some chose to not be moral, and some choose to be immoral, and some choose to kill other people.

This is not God "letting it happen".....This is God's gift to Humans.....in that God has given you the right to choose your behavior.

If you decide to use your life to harm others, then that is not God's fault, that is your CHOICE.

Never blame God for giving mankind the opportunity to choose what they do.

Even Choosing to go to Heaven or Hell, is our decision.

 

[timothyu]

We are ALL sinners

 

[Simon_Templar]

How do you forum posters explain that evil exists despite God being, all powerful, all knowing and all love?

Why does God permit or create evil? Or did God not want it for anything? Is evil and illusion?

Why did Jesus create the situation of the crucifixion and go through that? Why does the victory of death and Satan, take so long to fully establish?

Will the fallen angels and souls ever repent?

1. First you must distinguish what you mean by "evil". Specifically there is moral evil, which we would call sin. There is also what has been called "natural evil" which is not sin, but rather it is suffering, calamity, misfortune.

God does not create moral evil. Everything that God created is good by nature.

Evil is not a positive thing, like light or heat, or matter. It is a privation, like darkness, cold, or emptiness. Evil is not a thing in itself, there is no object out there in the world that is "evil". Evil is an adjective, or a state, specifically it is the state of lacking or being deprived of what you ought to have.

God created human beings to be loving, honest, kind, brave, noble, etc. He also gave us free will, which means we can choose to embrace or to reject what God has created us to be. We can choose to love, or not to love. We can choose to be honest, or not to be honest.

When a human being lacks love, that is evil because they are not being the fullness of what they were created to be. When a human being is not honest, that is evil and so on.

In all such cases, human beings are called to be good and to possess and act from goodness. When we choose NOT to do those things, we lack goodness, and that is what evil is.

God did not create evil, because he did not create us with lack or privation. He created us with perfect natural goodness and we chose to give it up. Thus we created evil, not God.

2. God did not create evil, we did. However, God permitted evil because the possibility of evil is essential to the perfection of Goodness that God intended. God wanted to create us as free moral agents who are capable of love. In order for us to be free moral agents capable of love, that means that we must be capable of choosing love, and if we are capable of choosing, we must also be capable of choosing NOT to love.

Evil is not an illusion, and it is necessary in a sense, but not in the sense that people often think. God deemed that the price of evil existing was worth the goodness of us existing.

He decided that you existing was worth the price of allowing evil to be possible.

This also reflects the principle that God would not and never does permit an evil, unless he can and will bring a greater good out of it. Thus he has deemed that the goodness of you existing is so great as to make the possibility of evil worth it.

3. There are several different answers to this question. The central point of the Crucifixion was to demonstrate the power and perfection of Love. Many Christians mistakenly believe that salvation is the result of how much Jesus suffered. In reality, salvation is the result of how much and how perfectly Jesus loved. The suffering was just a means of demonstrating his love and his obedience.

In the fallen world Love is virtually inseparable from suffering. Love almost always bring suffering and it is often actualized and proved by suffering. But love also makes suffering meaningful and bearable.

The victory over Satan and death is not what takes a long time. God could defeat them with a thought. In less than an instant.

What takes a long time is human beings to be born, grow, learn, etc. The time that God has allowed is not because it was necessary to conquer Satan, but because it was necessary for many people to be brought into his family.

4. The general teaching of Christianity for most of its history is that it is not possible for Angels to repent, because they make their choices will full knowledge and understanding and as a result they never change their minds.

 

[GoldenKingGaze]

1. First you must distinguish what you mean by "evil". Specifically there is moral evil, which we would call sin. There is also what has been called "natural evil" which is not sin, but rather it is suffering, calamity, misfortune.

God does not create moral evil. Everything that God created is good by nature.

Evil is not a positive thing, like light or heat, or matter. It is a privation, like darkness, cold, or emptiness. Evil is not a thing in itself, there is no object out there in the world that is "evil". Evil is an adjective, or a state, specifically it is the state of lacking or being deprived of what you ought to have.

God created human beings to be loving, honest, kind, brave, noble, etc. He also gave us free will, which means we can choose to embrace or to reject what God has created us to be. We can choose to love, or not to love. We can choose to be honest, or not to be honest.

When a human being lacks love, that is evil because they are not being the fullness of what they were created to be. When a human being is not honest, that is evil and so on.

In all such cases, human beings are called to be good and to possess and act from goodness. When we choose NOT to do those things, we lack goodness, and that is what evil is.

God did not create evil, because he did not create us with lack or privation. He created us with perfect natural goodness and we chose to give it up. Thus we created evil, not God.

2. God did not create evil, we did. However, God permitted evil because the possibility of evil is essential to the perfection of Goodness that God intended. God wanted to create us as free moral agents who are capable of love. In order for us to be free moral agents capable of love, that means that we must be capable of choosing love, and if we are capable of choosing, we must also be capable of choosing NOT to love.

Evil is not an illusion, and it is necessary in a sense, but not in the sense that people often think. God deemed that the price of evil existing was worth the goodness of us existing.

He decided that you existing was worth the price of allowing evil to be possible.

This also reflects the principle that God would not and never does permit an evil, unless he can and will bring a greater good out of it. Thus he has deemed that the goodness of you existing is so great as to make the possibility of evil worth it.

3. There are several different answers to this question. The central point of the Crucifixion was to demonstrate the power and perfection of Love. Many Christians mistakenly believe that salvation is the result of how much Jesus suffered. In reality, salvation is the result of how much and how perfectly Jesus loved. The suffering was just a means of demonstrating his love and his obedience.

In the fallen world Love is virtually inseparable from suffering. Love almost always bring suffering and it is often actualized and proved by suffering. But love also makes suffering meaningful and bearable.

The victory over Satan and death is not what takes a long time. God could defeat them with a thought. In less than an instant.

What takes a long time is human beings to be born, grow, learn, etc. The time that God has allowed is not because it was necessary to conquer Satan, but because it was necessary for many people to be brought into his family.

4. The general teaching of Christianity for most of its history is that it is not possible for Angels to repent, because they make their choices will full knowledge and understanding and as a result they never change their minds.

Looking at the angels as the root of the free choice of evil, how does that fit in with your theodicy?

The fallen angels met Hell, they did not know of that, perhaps they could eventually repent?

Why cannot God change all the people in the world overnight with tremendous grace, and the holy angels?

 

[Simon_Templar]

Looking at the angels as the root of the free choice of evil, how does that fit in with your theodicy?

The fallen angels met Hell, they did not know of that, perhaps they could eventually repent?

Why cannot God change all the people in the world overnight with tremendous grace, and the holy angels?

Good question,

I suppose that the Angelic choice would have preceded the human choice and thus that would have been the first instance of evil. Thus making Satan the originator of evil.

I'm not going to die on the hill of whether angels can repent or not. There are well established views historically, but I would tend to say that they pretty much all fall into the category of "theological opinion" rather than things that must be believed.

However, if I were to argue the point I would probably say that the angels did not foresee every circumstance that would arise as a result of their choice. In that sense they could acquire new knowledge. For example, I don't think they knew that the incarnation would happen, or how it would work out.

However, they perfectly understood what it meant to reject love in favor of self-service and self-aggrandizement. As such, their rejection of love in favor of serving self, will never change.

God is in the process of changing people by grace. That's what the gospel is.

However, it is a logical contradiction to say that God can give people free choice AND at the same time make them choose love and goodness. It's like saying God can make a triangle with four sides. God can't make contradictions because that goes against his own nature. They are fundamentally meaningless.

God COULD simply make everyone choose goodness, but in that case they wouldn't really have a choice. They would no longer have their own will, and as such would no longer truly be people in the sense that we know understand what a person is.

Another way of saying this is that God appears to think that people being free and able to go to hell, is better than people not having their own will and automatically going to heaven, but not really being persons anymore.

We can have certainty, I think, that God will give every person the circumstances that give them their best chance to choose Love, Truth, and Goodness.

 

[GoldenKingGaze]

Good question,

I suppose that the Angelic choice would have preceded the human choice and thus that would have been the first instance of evil. Thus making Satan the originator of evil.

I'm not going to die on the hill of whether angels can repent or not. There are well established views historically, but I would tend to say that they pretty much all fall into the category of "theological opinion" rather than things that must be believed.

However, if I were to argue the point I would probably say that the angels did not foresee every circumstance that would arise as a result of their choice. In that sense they could acquire new knowledge. For example, I don't think they knew that the incarnation would happen, or how it would work out.

However, they perfectly understood what it meant to reject love in favor of self-service and self-aggrandizement. As such, their rejection of love in favor of serving self, will never change.

God is in the process of changing people by grace. That's what the gospel is.

However, it is a logical contradiction to say that God can give people free choice AND at the same time make them choose love and goodness. It's like saying God can make a triangle with four sides. God can't make contradictions because that goes against his own nature. They are fundamentally meaningless.

God COULD simply make everyone choose goodness, but in that case they wouldn't really have a choice. They would no longer have their own will, and as such would no longer truly be people in the sense that we know understand what a person is.

Another way of saying this is that God appears to think that people being free and able to go to hell, is better than people not having their own will and automatically going to heaven, but not really being persons anymore.

We can have certainty, I think, that God will give every person the circumstances that give them their best chance to choose Love, Truth, and Goodness.

Some ask why the angels do not preach? And Calvinists say God's grace is marvelous in that it can lift you from sin, regardless of your nature or choice, at the same time, it is your choice. Arminians and myself a bit different, following NDE accounts, I think salvation slowly makes us perfectly holy into the afterlife and after a time, able to fully know and fully freely choose anything, and yet never sin. It puts a limit on God almighty to say it takes time.

 

[timothyu]

We are expected to be followers, not leaders in our own right. Creative yes, self-willed, no.

 

[Stephen3141]

(I find so many of the comments on this topic, are the projections of
personal value systems upon God.

Also, there is a common theme of assuming that a righteous life,
should not include struggle or discipline or training.

I think that these objections tend to be very parochial, and American, and
cultural.

I don't think that a lot of Americans, would want to impose these
requirements on the Olympic Games. Not everyone is worthy of
receiving a trophy.

I have trouble, taking a lot of the objections to God, seriously.)

 

[timothyu]

Making Him in our image rather than changing ourselves to suit His will.

 

[Stephen Andrew]

Peace to all,

Freedom gives choice a chance through the fall of Adam and Eve. With choice we can now keep the old spirit in the soul of the being or be regenerated by the Holy Spirit into becoming transfigured into the image of the Father by the will of the Father by the Power of the Holy Spirit.

What would Jesus do in all cases of faith and morality? We know we have the power to judge ourselves through the Power of the Holy Spirit will of the Father, and we know we are not to judge others.

Peace always,
Stephen

 

[Hawkins]

Looking at the angels as the root of the free choice of evil, how does that fit in with your theodicy?

The fallen angels met Hell, they did not know of that, perhaps they could eventually repent?

Why cannot God change all the people in the world overnight with tremendous grace, and the holy angels?

God sets mathematical laws. He doesn't work against logic and mathematics.

The nature of freewill granted is that entities are given the ability to choose to sin. Freewill at the end means angels and humans can choose to oppose God. By mathematics (statistics and probabilities) some will do. By the hint from the book of Revelation, the mathematical expected outcome (assuming a Normal Distribution of behavior) is that 2/3 angels will pass the Judgment of Law to enter Heaven. Law is a tool of assessment, an open standard to make a cut to produce the outcome. It's like the completely sin-incompatible God gives out the promise that, if one can pass the Judgment of Law God would bear with him in eternity no matter what, like a Shepherd to His sheep.

By the same token, with the larger degree of freewill granted to humans, the mathematical expected outcome for humans is that 1/3 or less humans will be saved by the same Judgment of Law. This is the mathematical calculation based on the factor of freewill alone. There is however another factor which affects the formula. The much more intelligent angels (crafty snake in Eden) can have an effect on humans, causing them to completely corrupt. With this "crafty snake" factor, no human can be deemed savable. Satan literally keeps all mankind captive, such that no one can be saved by the Judgment of Law.

Under the circumstance, either all mankind as a whole shall be destroyed (by Noah's flood) or God need to provide an alternative for the salvation of humans. Needless to say, Jesus is the way to go. With Jesus' self-sacrifice, it makes possible that humans now are judged by Covenant instead of Law. With the Judgment of Law, 0 human is savable. With the Judgment of Covenant, 1/3 or less humans will be saved through the narrow gate.

By mathematics if true freewill is granted, some will inevitably choose to oppose God by sinning against Law. Law is an assessment on an entity's obedience to see if he can live with the sin-incompatible God in eternity. To this aspect, all mankind would fail. In contrary Covenant is an assessment of Faith. To humans faith is equally important as obedience for them to live with God forever.

 

[JimR-OCDS]

True freedom isn't the privilege of having the choice between good and evil, but the
ability to choose only good. No one chooses evil knowing that it will be bad for themselves.
Instead, we choose evil thinking it will somehow benefit us. We lost the ability to see good only
when Adam and Eve sinned.

God has the ability to choose only good.