How do you define "perfect" with respect to your god?

[Grega]

I think the word is "utilitarianistically" LOL.

Hey, not a problem - I'm more a mathematician than I am a philosopher and were it not for symbols, there's very little that would get accomplished in the realm of numbers without them - so I understand the desire to use them. And don't get me wrong, it's not wrong at all to use them - but it is important to consider your audience too, something I learned the hard way, trying to explain algebra to my wife

Not all here are entirely unversed in philosophy either so I don't want to totally discourage their use... 'nuff said on that, I guess

Again, fair enough

I think the word is "utilitarianistically" LOL.
Hehe...I've well gotta use that word now when I'm talking to someone!

 

[Grega]

Well yes - because it would mean that God had told me it was a triangular square, and also, by definition, created my understanding mechanism of what he tells me. So I would have no basis for assessing its truth independently. Therefore I would be, once again, left only with trust and faith.

I fully understand that. It is perfectly natural and indeed recommendable not to place one's trust 100% on a book. But that does not prevent one from exploring what that book says by adopting its teachings and trying, for example, regular prayer, and if it appears to stand up for itself in those areas then extending that trust to assume that other concepts may also be true when they are compatible with what one has found so far?

But even if one did do that, no matter how far one got with a growing suspicion that God, is perhaps perfect afterall, it will never be possible to prove it as a human being because a human being cannot know the whole of God to make such a complete assessment - once again we are forced back into trust and faith.

So many people are so desparate to find a way around this trust and faith requirement, but it is uncanny how it always remains an insurmountable obstacle. It seems to me that all attempts to prove God's existence or even his qualities through objective analysis and logic are the equivalent of trying to force God to come to us on our terms, when I suspect God's purpose is for us to answer his call and come to him on his terms, which are - trust and faith.

Well yes - because it would mean that God had told me it was a triangular square, and also, by definition, created my understanding mechanism of what he tells me. So I would have no basis for assessing its truth independently. Therefore I would be, once again, left only with trust and faith.
but an object that has one side less than it has (being a triangular square) whilst having one more side than it has (being a square triangle) is still in my terms a contradiction, and though I anticipate your response that my own sense of what is contradictory is moot with respect to what a god would find contradictory, I say that I disagree with this premise...and our argument here would go round in circles because you will choose to accept that contradictions are not contradictions from your God's perspective...and I say this really really needs to be justified.

But you will of course press forward the point that this is an axiom that need not be justified...and I will say I disagree with your axiom-set and that I find it is inconsistent with the system we exist in.

 

[christloved1122]

I have a hard time defining what perfect is because I am certainly not.
And imaging trying to define what it is for God to be perfect, well thats impossible. If I knew that, then I would have many answers of the world in my hand.

 

[Grega]

Hmm...a number of replies seem to be of the form "God is perfect because He is sinless, always does the right thing, infinitely good, etc..." but given that you define your god to be the entity that defined such things then these statements are vacuously true anyway!
I'm looking for something slightly less circular.


To put it another way: here is a rudimentary but satisfactory way (for example) I might want (I don't) to define your God's perfection:

1. For all things that are possible to be known he knows them
2. For all things that are possible to be done he can do them
3. For all objectives to be achieved, God will never fail when others succeed
4. There exist no other entities that have these properties, and there never will
5. For all moral judgements that any entity x may have about y's actions, the summation of his actions have the greatest positive magnitude in the eyes of x than any other entity.

Note: these in no way reflect my own views on what a perfect god is!

 

[Grega]

I would say it is because He is sinless, His knowledge is perfect and never wrong, His love never fails and is unconditional, He always does the right thing.

Basically perfection is to be without error and God is completely without error.

His knowledge is perfect
Does this mean that for all things that can be conceived...God knows them, even if such things conceived have not yet happened? Or does He know everything with respect to the boundaries imposed on what can be known? Or do you mean that the mechanism via which he retains this knowledge is transcendent over all over mechanisms...please elaborate.

 

[solarwave]

Hmm...a number of replies seem to be of the form "God is perfect because He is sinless, always does the right thing, infinitely good, etc..." but given that you define your god to be the entity that defined such things then these statements are vacuously true anyway!
I'm looking for something slightly less circular

So you wish us to define perfect, but not the perfection of God but the word in general? Ok then, perfection is to be without error.

His knowledge is perfect
Does this mean that for all things that can be conceived...God knows them, even if such things conceived have not yet happened? Or does He know everything with respect to the boundaries imposed on what can be known? Or do you mean that the mechanism via which he retains this knowledge is transcendent over all over mechanisms...please elaborate.

This means that God knows everything that could be known and which of these things are true. In my view God is outside time and space so can see past, present and future all as one and knows exactly what will happen and what would have been is any one thing had changed.

Does that answer your question?

 

[Grega]

So you wish us to define perfect, but not the perfection of God but the word in general? Ok then, perfection is to be without error.



This means that God knows everything that could be known and which of these things are true. In my view God is outside time and space so can see past, present and future all as one and knows exactly what will happen and what would have been is any one thing had changed.

Does that answer your question?

So you wish us to define perfect, but not the perfection of God but the word in general? Ok then, perfection is to be without error.
Part of a response I edited after this reply was:


To put it another way: here is a rudimentary but satisfactory way (for example) I might want (I don't) to define your God's perfection:

1. For all things that are possible to be known he knows them
2. For all things that are possible to be done he can do them
3. For all objectives to be achieved, God will never fail when others succeed
4. There exist no other entities that have these properties, and there never will
5. For all moral judgements that any entity x have about y's actions, the summation of His actions have the greatest positive magnitude in the eyes of x than any other entity.

Note: these in no way reflect my own views on what a perfect god is!
something like the above list would be satisfactory

This means that God knows everything that could be known and which of these things are true. In my view God is outside time and space so can see past, present and future all as one and knows exactly what will happen and what would have been is any one thing had changed.

Does that answer your question?
That does answer my question , I would like to see if mos people have this opinion on this one facet of your gods "perfection"

 

[solarwave]

I think your list of 5 points pretty much hits the nail on the head anyway. It would take too much deep thought to try and improve it much lol.

 

[Grega]

I think your list of 5 points pretty much hits the nail on the head anyway. It would take too much deep thought to try and improve it much lol.

Oh I'm sure you could, they are pretty loose as given (point 3 was made tighter in my OP for example), and certainly not exhaustive...if you do have anything else to offer please post them! (just ensure that they are independent of what you define your god to have defined...if you know what I mean)

 

[tansy]

With God I would say it's the other way round (well to a point). To begin with one isn't sure about God, but as one enters into a relationship with Him and gets to know Him, one discovers more and more just how "perfect" He is.
I doubt again that such an approach would be viable for me since I am a suspicious person...and I am suspicious that if I did *see* God's perfection using that route that it would be a placebo/positive feedback loop type of belief.

Yes, I see that could be a difficulty, but I think in practice it doesn't work like that.
I can;t think what more I can add for the moment, but I do hope you find resolution to your questions.

 

[solarwave]

Ok here is what I have so far and would be glad for anyone to point out what I might have missed:

1) Perfect Judgement: Gods judgements on a situation and on someone are always correct. What He thinks about something is always the correct way to think about it.

2) Perfect Wisdom: Because of (1) Gods wisdom is always right and there is nothing that could be added to it. He always knows the correct way to act in every situation to give the best result. This also means He undestands all things.

3) Perfect Knowledge: God knows everything that could be known and which of these things are true. This includes the past, present and furture events.

4) Perfect Morals: He knows the value of all things and so acts accordingly to bring about the greatest good/ the 'right' action. God never does wrong. Because of (1),(2) and (3) God can make the correct choices every time whereas we cannot.

5) Perfect Love: Gods love is not like human love. Gods love is agape (unconditional). He loves us the way we are with a constant love which is the highest possible love which can be had. I believe that all other good attitudes come from love, such as grace, mercy, forgiveness, which means these are perfect as well.

Because Im calling perfection 'without error' I think think omnipotence comes into this because I dont think you can have an error in power/control because there is no right or wrong in power/control. Though this did confuse me so I maybe be wrong about this.

 

[Grega]

Ok here is what I have so far and would be glad for anyone to point out what I might have missed:

1) Perfect Judgement: Gods judgements on a situation and on someone are always correct. What He thinks about something is always the correct way to think about it.

2) Perfect Wisdom: Because of (1) Gods wisdom is always right and there is nothing that could be added to it. He always knows the correct way to act in every situation to give the best result. This also means He undestands all things.

3) Perfect Knowledge: God knows everything that could be known and which of these things are true. This includes the past, present and furture events.

4) Perfect Morals: He knows the value of all things and so acts accordingly to bring about the greatest good/ the 'right' action. God never does wrong. Because of (1),(2) and (3) God can make the correct choices every time whereas we cannot.

5) Perfect Love: Gods love is not like human love. Gods love is agape (unconditional). He loves us the way we are with a constant love which is the highest possible love which can be had. I believe that all other good attitudes come from love, such as grace, mercy, forgiveness, which means these are perfect as well.

Because Im calling perfection 'without error' I think think omnipotence comes into this because I dont think you can have an error in power/control because there is no right or wrong in power/control. Though this did confuse me so I maybe be wrong about this.

I have a problem with a couple of your points:
1) Your method of determining perfection in this example is given using your god as a reference point...ie: anything not god being less perfect, this I find to be a tautological statement. If on the other hand you were to choose an arbitrary point of reference ie: for any creature/entity, its evaluation of your god's judgement is greater in a positive sense than its evaluation of any other entity's judgement and furthermore that creature could not evaluate it to a higher value; I'd say this would be a better description of what is "perfect judgement".
There are of course subtle (and perhaps not too subtle) problems with this (the term "higher" being very much a problem); but in trying to remain as objective as possible it is difficult to describe something so subjective as having "perfect judgement".

4) I'd have to know what "good" is...again do you define it using your god as a reference point?
Since If I defined say a millywob to be the most "good/un-evil" entity in the universe, then everything that a millywob must do is good by definition...even if a milliwob torturously exterminates all other creatures with complete indifference, this must still be a good thing to do! I again ask for objectivity

5) I'd not so happy with 5...firstly from "...He loves us the way we are with a constant love which is the highest possible love which can be had..." I infer that the extent to which one can be loved is bounded by something...but then presumably something *more* perfect could circumvent such bounds (if we assume omnipotence!), Secondly I can't make much sense of: "I believe that all other good attitudes come from love, such as grace, mercy, forgiveness, which means these are perfect as well."

 

[solarwave]

1) Your method of determining perfection in this example is given using your god as a reference point...ie: anything not god being less perfect, this I find to be a tautological statement. If on the other hand you were to choose an arbitrary point of reference ie: for any creature/entity, its evaluation of your god's judgement is greater in a positive sense than its evaluation of any other entity's judgement and furthermore that creature could not evaluate it to a higher value; I'd say this would be a better description of what is "perfect judgement".
There are of course subtle (and perhaps not too subtle) problems with this (the term "higher" being very much a problem); but in trying to remain as objective as possible it is difficult to describe something so subjective as having "perfect judgement".

So if I change it to, 1) Perfect Judgement: This is when an entity's thoughts on a situation are always the correct way to think about it.

4) I'd have to know what "good" is...again do you define it using your god as a reference point?
Since If I defined say a millywob to be the most "good/un-evil" entity in the universe, then everything that a millywob must do is good by definition...even if a milliwob torturously exterminates all other creatures with complete indifference, this must still be a good thing to do! I again ask for objectivity

I don't think the word good can be defined, the same as you cannot define the word yellow. I was going to try and define it and found that could not. The closest I got was to say what us loving is good unless you have no right to do it. For God this means He has the right to do whatever He wants so He can ether do what is loving or what is just. But to be honest I don't know if 'good' can be defined and what is the 'right' thing is just as hard.

5) I'd not so happy with 5...firstly from "...He loves us the way we are with a constant love which is the highest possible love which can be had..." I infer that the extent to which one can be loved is bounded by something...but then presumably something *more* perfect could circumvent such bounds (if we assume omnipotence!), Secondly I can't make much sense of: "I believe that all other good attitudes come from love, such as grace, mercy, forgiveness, which means these are perfect as well."

Ok then a simple 5) Perfect Love: Constant unconditional love.

I ment that grace is getting good things you dont deserve, mercy is not getting punishment you do deserve; why would you do these things if not out of some sort of love for something/someone. So if there is perfect love there is also perfect grace and perfect mercy, etc.

 

[Grega]

So if I change it to, 1) Perfect Judgement: This is when an entity's thoughts on a situation are always the correct way to think about it.



I don't think the word good can be defined, the same as you cannot define the word yellow. I was going to try and define it and found that could not. The closest I got was to say what us loving is good unless you have no right to do it. For God this means He has the right to do whatever He wants so He can ether do what is loving or what is just. But to be honest I don't know if 'good' can be defined and what is the 'right' thing is just as hard.



Ok then a simple 5) Perfect Love: Constant unconditional love.

I ment that grace is getting good things you dont deserve, mercy is not getting punishment you do deserve; why would you do these things if not out of some sort of love for something/someone. So if there is perfect love there is also perfect grace and perfect mercy, etc.

So if I change it to, 1) Perfect Judgement: This is when an entity's thoughts on a situation are always the correct way to think about it.
This would still not be satisfactory because you would be using your god as the point of origin from which something something can be measured as correct or incorrect...the further away from this origin, the less correct it is. Any descriptions you give of your god's "perfection" under such terms in no way augment the knowledge I already have about your god. In fact to use such terms you could succinctly define perfect with respect to your god as simply: "being God" and I'm still non the wiser!

I don't think the word good can be defined, the same as you cannot define the word yellow. I was going to try and define it and found that could not. The closest I got was to say what us loving is good unless you have no right to do it. For God this means He has the right to do whatever He wants so He can ether do what is loving or what is just. But to be honest I don't know if 'good' can be defined and what is the 'right' thing is just as hard.
Hmm...you can define "yellow" objectively with respect to light and its interaction with our eyes, though I'll agree that you cannot objectively define the sensation of perceiving yellow...that is why I don't like such things as Gods love is perfect, gods morals are perfect,etc...how do we measure such terms objectively? what do such things mean if they can only be quantified with respect to a point of origin that I cannot use?
If you could partition the words love, morals, goodness, evil, etc... into a set of concepts that can be measured objectively then I'd be happier.

Ok then a simple 5) Perfect Love: Constant unconditional love.
Again, what is love?! (the unconditional bit I'm ok with)

I ment that grace is getting good things you dont deserve, mercy is not getting punishment you do deserve; why would you do these things if not out of some sort of love for something/someone. So if there is perfect love there is also perfect grace and perfect mercy, etc.
Hmm...I'm still floundering on these because of the above points, also I'm resisting the urge to go off topic and respond to a particular thing you said about mercy in this bit...but I shall remain silent on this (in this thread anyway!)

 

[solarwave]

I think it comes down to the fact that God knows what good is and acts on it because He is loving. Now I can't define good, and really I don't know if it is possible to do, not at least without major philosophical thought. I'm also too tired at the moment to attempt to define love, but to be honest you must know what I mean by love even if it isn't at exact definition. I think God knows what is right or wrong by reason (eg: It isn't just good because He says it is), but I'm no god and so can't figure it out like Him lol. Anyway Im not expert so I dont think I can take this much further, and I dont think you will get a strick deffinition of perfection, but at least you have an idea what I and others mean now.

Yeah the whole perfect mercy and hell doesn't seem to work together well, but it can. If that was what you were thinking.

 

[Grega]

I think it comes down to the fact that God knows what good is and acts on it because He is loving. Now I can't define good, and really I don't know if it is possible to do, not at least without major philosophical thought. I'm also too tired at the moment to attempt to define love, but to be honest you must know what I mean by love even if it isn't at exact definition. I think God knows what is right or wrong by reason (eg: It isn't just good because He says it is), but I'm no god and so can't figure it out like Him lol. Anyway Im not expert so I dont think I can take this much further, and I dont think you will get a strick deffinition of perfection, but at least you have an idea what I and others mean now.

Yeah the whole perfect mercy and hell doesn't seem to work together well, but it can. If that was what you were thinking.

I actually don't know what love is!...see I'm aware that my mum has deep concern for my well-being and development has this level of concern has been described to me as love...but I could also say this about mummy pigeon and baby pigeon, or mummy bluebottle and and its larvae...and I say that I have most confidence in the assertion that this stems from it being evolutionary advantageous for a species to concerned about its youth (what would become of a species where its lifebearers (or associates/peers) are indifferent to the needs of their offspring?)...I have a couple of friends who I hold in extremely high regard...perhaps someone else would say that they love such friends if they were so important to them but then this would be in someway different to the type of love between mother/father and offspring.

I may actually reciprocate usage of the word so as to be economical with the number of words and hours I'd have to use in order to convey my feelings twards a person more accurately...but I use it knowing that I'm shotgunning them with a myriad of different concepts, where the recipient chooses for themselves which ones are relevant (and these may be different from that which I wanted to convey...and I'll never know this!)

What then does it even mean to say a god *loves* us?
It is certainly not a legacy of evolution unless one takes the view point that god has evolved...and few would take that stance, what would it mean to even say god is concerned for our well being?...our physical well being on Earth?, or our spiritual well-being in Heaven or Hell???

Love is an extremely vague term, and so if one says that a particular facet of gods perfection is that his love is perfect then unless they define what they mean by god's love they might as well say that god is perfect because he is bingjubbydibbywangnong!

 

[ebia]

Hmm...a number of replies seem to be of the form "God is perfect because He is sinless, always does the right thing, infinitely good, etc..." but given that you define your god to be the entity that defined such things then these statements are vacuously true anyway!
I'm looking for something slightly less circular.



To put it another way: here is a rudimentary but satisfactory way (for example) I might want (I don't) to define your God's perfection:

1. For all things that are possible to be known he knows them
2. For all things that are possible to be done he can do them
3. For all objectives to be achieved, God will never fail when others succeed
4. There exist no other entities that have these properties, and there never will
5. For all moral judgements that any entity x may have about y's actions, the summation of his actions have the greatest positive magnitude in the eyes of x than any other entity.

Note: these in no way reflect my own views on what a perfect god is!

If I used the word "perfect" to describe God I would expect to leave that rather fuzzy, or if I did nail down a definition I would expect it to be likely inaccurate.

God reveals himself in story, in person, in relationship, in action. When we try to reduce that to times absolute statements we move away from the truth, not towards it.

(As a maths and I.T. teacher) I value mathematical precision in the right place, but trying to use it for theology is as out of place as using it to appreciate a piece of art or a sunset. It's the wrong tool for the job. A hammer is a very good tool for putting in a nail, but a very poor one for removing a screw.

 

[Grega]

If I used the word "perfect" to describe God I would expect to leave that rather fuzzy, or if I did nail down a definition I would expect it to be likely inaccurate.

God reveals himself in story, in person, in relationship, in action. When we try to reduce that to times absolute statements we move away from the truth, not towards it.

(As a maths and I.T. teacher) I value mathematical precision in the right place, but trying to use it for theology is as out of place as using it to appreciate a piece of art or a sunset. It's the wrong tool for the job. A hammer is a very good tool for putting in a nail, but a very poor one for removing a screw.

Hmm...I'm not asking you to define your god completely (to do so would be a ridiculous request because it's supposed (spiritual) dwellings and construct lie beyond your abilty to know) however I'm asking you to define what it would mean to say this thing for which you have little knowledge about is perfect.
I do believe that this word should be reducable into simpler concepts (not necessarily atoms) since it is a statement about what this entity can do in our physical realm and what others cannot do as a consequence of its perfection. You might not be able to explain what is a perfect spirit (because you probably don't know what a spirit is) but you can certainly explain how the way in which it affects our physical world is perfect.

As a mathemtician I'm sure you want definitions when anybody talks about new concepts, or intoduces new constants/variables into some expression.
At your level I expect you wouldn't accept any conclusions derived from some "advanced" theorem until you actually knew what this theorem was at least talking about!

 

[jellybean99]

The Hebrew perfect should be translated into English as complete.

 

[solarwave]

Well there are different types of love, as in friends, parents and children, lovers, etc.

I suppose when we say God loves you (off the top of my head), it means God unconditionally deeply cares about you. This sort of love can be a feeling and a choice I would say. Actually, what about loving meaning, you want the best for them?

1 Corinthians 13:4-8 4Love is patient, love is kind. It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud. 5It is not rude, it is not self-seeking, it is not easily angered, it keeps no record of wrongs. 6Love does not delight in evil but rejoices with the truth. 7It always protects, always trusts, always hopes, always perseveres. 8Love never fails.