How do you define: forgiveness?

[bling]

All that matters is how God defines forgiveness.

I fully agree and Jesus did an excellent job of it in Matt. 18, but that takes some explaining to get to the Spiritual meaning. So looking at scripture does a forgiven debt also require payment?

 

[JohnD70X7]

No.

 

[ViaCrucis]

I agree with you here, but some seem to be saying, you're taking the injury, means you are paying the price punishment, Just thinking about it even if they are punished you still were injured, so it would be double payment?

This seems like a conflation between forgiveness and justification.

Justification includes forgiveness, but justification is also a whole lot more than forgiveness.

We receive both forgiveness and justification as pure grace. Not only does God release us from our debt, but God also satisfies that debt and declares us not only forgiven, but reconciled and just. God says, "I have paid the debt". Not only is the debt forgiven, it is also paid for--satisfied. That satisfaction is made on our behalf. And because it is satisfied, the decree from Mt. Calvary is not only that we are forgiven, but much more than that, that we are guilt-less before God. The Judge has not only pronounced pardon, but has pronounced all accounted for, all settled, all accomplished and finalized: the accused is accused no longer, charges are dropped. The offender is an offender no longer.

In the Parable of the Prodigal Son, the son tells his father that the father is dead to him, that is the meaning of taking his inheritance while the father is still alive. It was to regard the father as dead. After having squandered it, and now living in pig slop, the son thinks about returning to his father's house; not as a son, for he has forfeited any right to be called a son because the father-son relationship died. So the son says to himself, perhaps he could become a slave. But then see how the father acts when the son approaches over the horizon. The father runs out to meet him, and before the son can even say the words he had been rehearsing, the father calls to have the prodigal cloaked and receive a banquet, and says, "My son, who was dead, is alive".

We were, St. Paul says, enemies of God. Set against God, with every animosity. In our sin, we were dead to God, dead in our sin. In Adam we had thrown away our birthright, estranged ourselves, become hostile and raged against God--though He only ever loved us.

St. Paul says, in light of our baptism, to reckon ourselves no longer slaves of sin, but slaves of righteousness; dead to sin now and alive to God (even as we had previously been dead to God in our sin).

But Paul goes further elsewhere, that we are not merely slaves in God's house, but sons. Heirs, joint-heirs with Christ.

This is the love with which God has lavished upon us. That we, who were enemies of God by our sin and anger and hate, are not merely restored as slaves, but adopted as sons and heirs. It would be mercy and grace if we could merely be slaves, but God reaches further and calls us sons, calls us children, His children, His beloved children.

Forgiven, oh yes. But even more, justified. Even more, He will keep us and hold us in His arms. So that those whom He knew, those whom He chose, those whom He justified He will keep and hold, and glorify. So great a salvation, so great a mercy, so great a Father. Who sent His only-begotten Son, the Righteous One and reckoned among the unrighteous and cursed under the Law for us; that the curse of the Law should no longer be held against us. And not only this, that we should be presented before the Father blameless and without guilt as sons and daughters. Clothed with robes of righteousness in Christ, clothed with Jesus Himself, that we should be covered, found spotless, blameless, and perfect before the Father. Not on our account, but on Christ's account.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[Clare73]

"Canceling" sounds mechanical and forgiving a debt is more then just canceling a debt which can be done with a payment of the debt and no forgiveness is needed. God forgave a debt that could not be paid.

It's not about what it sounds like, it's about what it is.

 

[Clare73]

I fully agree and Jesus did an excellent job of it in Matt. 18, but that takes some explaining to get to the Spiritual meaning. So looking at scripture does a forgiven debt also require payment?

It does if you want to get technical in that someone is going to "lose "money in the cancelling of a debt, the guy who owes and pays the debt, or the debtee who is out the money of the unpaid cancelled debt, in effect, paying himself.

 

[bling]

It's not about what it sounds like, it's about what it is.

By just saying "forgiveness" is "cancelling" the debt, your minimizing righteous forgiveness to something almost mechanical.
True unconditional forgiveness is an act of Love for the debtor and God.
You are happy to forgive the person who intentionally took out your eye.
We are to forgive others unconditionally and happily because God has forgiven us and thus we automatically Love much (Luke 7). If the person, we are truly unconditionally forgiven, accepts our forgiveness as pure undeserved charity they will automatically Love us.
This also brings up the idea that forgiveness is a transaction and not just one-sided, you can correctly forgive someone but if they to not humbly accept being forgiving as pure undeserved charity forgiveness did not take place Matt. 18.

 

[bling]

It does if you want to get technical in that someone is going to "lose "money in the cancelling of a debt, the guy who owes and pays the debt, or the debtee who is out the money of the unpaid cancelled debt, in effect, paying himself.

No, he does not "pay himself" he is out the money and may have to declare bankruptcy.

 

[bling]

This seems like a conflation between forgiveness and justification.

Justification includes forgiveness, but justification is also a whole lot more than forgiveness.

We receive both forgiveness and justification as pure grace. Not only does God release us from our debt, but God also satisfies that debt and declares us not only forgiven, but reconciled and just. God says, "I have paid the debt". Not only is the debt forgiven, it is also paid for--satisfied. That satisfaction is made on our behalf. And because it is satisfied, the decree from Mt. Calvary is not only that we are forgiven, but much more than that, that we are guilt-less before God. The Judge has not only pronounced pardon, but has pronounced all accounted for, all settled, all accomplished and finalized: the accused is accused no longer, charges are dropped. The offender is an offender no longer.

Where are you getting the idea “God says, "I have paid the debt"”? The debt was forgiven. Christ paid the ransom, but who was that to and why?

If the debt is forgiven than: The Judge has not only pronounced pardon, but has pronounced all accounted for, all settled, all accomplished and finalized: the accused is accused no longer, charges are dropped. The offender is an offender no longer.

God’s Love is great enough for unconditional forgiveness, but we humans still have an issue, like children we not only need forgiveness we need Loving discipline.

In the Parable of the Prodigal Son, the son tells his father that the father is dead to him, that is the meaning of taking his inheritance while the father is still alive. It was to regard the father as dead. After having squandered it, and now living in pig slop, the son thinks about returning to his father's house; not as a son, for he has forfeited any right to be called a son because the father-son relationship died. So the son says to himself, perhaps he could become a slave. But then see how the father acts when the son approaches over the horizon. The father runs out to meet him, and before the son can even say the words he had been rehearsing, the father calls to have the prodigal cloaked and receive a banquet, and says, "My son, who was dead, is alive".

I would first say by the son’s words: he is wishing his father was dead so he could have his inheritance.

While in the foreign land the father using Christ’s words given him, describes the son as dead. The son has done nothing to deserve being a slave/servant of his father, but the son was willing to humbly accept pure undeserved charity from his father.

We were, St. Paul says, enemies of God. Set against God, with every animosity. In our sin, we were dead to God, dead in our sin. In Adam we had thrown away our birthright, estranged ourselves, become hostile and raged against God--though He only ever loved us.

St. Paul says, in light of our baptism, to reckon ourselves no longer slaves of sin, but slaves of righteousness; dead to sin now and alive to God (even as we had previously been dead to God in our sin).

But Paul goes further elsewhere, that we are not merely slaves in God's house, but sons. Heirs, joint-heirs with Christ.

This is the love with which God has lavished upon us. That we, who were enemies of God by our sin and anger and hate, are not merely restored as slaves, but adopted as sons and heirs. It would be mercy and grace if we could merely be slaves, but God reaches further and calls us sons, calls us children, His children, His beloved children.

Forgiven, oh yes. But even more, justified. Even more, He will keep us and hold us in His arms. So that those whom He knew, those whom He chose, those whom He justified He will keep and hold, and glorify. So great a salvation, so great a mercy, so great a Father. Who sent His only-begotten Son, the Righteous One and reckoned among the unrighteous and cursed under the Law for us; that the curse of the Law should no longer be held against us. And not only this, that we should be presented before the Father blameless and without guilt as sons and daughters. Clothed with robes of righteousness in Christ, clothed with Jesus Himself, that we should be covered, found spotless, blameless, and perfect before the Father. Not on our account, but on Christ's account.

-CryptoLutheran

Yes, we were in satan’s army against God, hating God, but it is a hard fight, the macho can stay to the end, but some wimp out, give up and surrender to out hate enemy while He is still our enemy. We are just willing to humbly accept pure undeserved charity from our enemy and that is all God needs to shower us with unbelievable wonderful gifts.

 

[ViaCrucis]

Where are you getting the idea “God says, "I have paid the debt"”? The debt was forgiven. Christ paid the ransom, but who was that to and why?

There are two ways to look at that. Ransom Theory would say that payment was made to ransom us from the devil, a key text here would be Hebrews 2:14. Satisfaction Theory sees the need to satisfy justice, such justice is satisfied in Christ bearing our sin in His body (1 Peter 2:24).

Colossians 2:13-14 is forgiveness in that there is a cancellation of debt. This is not in contradiction to the making satisfaction of righteousness (remembering that justice and righteousness are one and the same in Scripture), where Christ is the hilasmos for our sins (1 John 2:2), the one who atones, reconciles, expiates, is the propitiation--the amends-maker, the One who satisfies.

Scripture uses a lot of ways to describe the Mystery of the Atonement.

If the debt is forgiven than: The Judge has not only pronounced pardon, but has pronounced all accounted for, all settled, all accomplished and finalized: the accused is accused no longer, charges are dropped. The offender is an offender no longer.

Forgiveness releases one from punishment, but it does not necessarily account for all.

Let's consider an earthly example. A victim may forgive their abuser, but that does not mean the abuser is now in a state of righteousness in relation to the victim. I can forgive what was done to me, but the offender still remains in a state of their own guilt, especially if they are without any remorse for what they have done. If they do not come to me to make amends, then amends are not made even if I forgive them.

In Christ there is not only forgiveness, but amends are made. Christ has amended our relationship with God, by satisfying righteousness and presenting us before God as holy and righteous.

We cannot come to God to make amends and have our communion and relationship restored with Him. "Not by works of righteousness which we have done" as Paul says in Titus 3:5, and "not by works" as Paul says in Ephesians 2:9. But rather by the gift--the grace--of God alone.

The work of restoring our relationship to Him is His work. in our sin, even as we were God's enemies, Christ died for us. God has not purchased us when we were friends, or even just as stranger, but rather He purchased us, loved us, came near to us when we were enemies. Even as we raged against Him, God loved us; even as we raged against Him, God reconciles and restores us and makes us right with Him.

He forgives us, and He comes to us and makes us right with Him. He steps in and gives us faith, and through faith gives us Christ's righteousness, Christ's innocence, Christ's goodness. All the good we did not have, He gives us, and then some, for He gives us Christ and all that Christ is. Exchanging our unworthiness for Christ's worthiness. Our unworthiness is nailed to the cross, and buried in the grave; Christ is risen and His life is now ours as a gift.

God’s Love is great enough for unconditional forgiveness, but we humans still have an issue, like children we not only need forgiveness we need Loving discipline.

Yes. But between those two things is adoption as children.

If you murder my child and I--somehow because I am unreasonably merciful--forgive you, that doesn't make you my child. But God, who is most unreasonable in His mercy, makes us--murderers all of us--His children by His grace.

As children, then, God has become our Father in Christ; the Father of our Lord Jesus is now our Father as well. And it is now as children that, through the Spirit, we are being sanctified. That is where discipline and being a disciple, "Take up your cross and follow Me" happens. This is where "work out your salvation with fear and trembling" takes place. This is where "do not be hearers of the word only, but doers of the word" is found. This is where, "created for good works in Christ Jesus" is. That's sanctification, that's being shaped and molded by grace and the Spirit into the likeness and image of Christ.

Justification is God's declaration of our being right with Him in Christ, because Christ has made satisfaction, Christ has satisfied all righteousness and unites the enemies of God with God and makes them children. We are forgiven and justified, this is most certainly true--and it is present in all the works and gifts of God: His Word and Sacraments. That we should always be comforted in our conscience that we belong to Christ, and if to Christ we belong to God; that God loves us, forgives us, reconciles us, keeps us, preserves us, both now and at the hour of our death--through faith which He grant us, works in us, strengthens us with by His grace.

Sanctification is the daily struggle between the old man and the new; between the flesh and the Spirit; the life of the cross-carrying disciple of Jesus Christ who needs the loving discipline of a good Father, that we should be corrected by the Law and comforted with the Gospel.

I would first say by the son’s words: he is wishing his father was dead so he could have his inheritance.

While in the foreign land the father using Christ’s words given him, describes the son as dead. The son has done nothing to deserve being a slave/servant of his father, but the son was willing to humbly accept pure undeserved charity from his father.

The son gave up the right to be called a son, and he knew it. That is why he comes to his father determined to be a slave. It would have been mercy enough to be given a roof over his head and fed daily as a servant in his father's house.

The father, however, would have none of that. The father does not concern himself with what the son deserves or doesn't deserve, but cares only that the son is alive, "My son who was dead, is now alive". The son was dead to the father because the son killed that relationship, the son terminated his sonship, rendering himself dead to his father and his father dead to him. Perhaps this is difficult for us to imagine because this was a very different culture than ours, but Jesus' original hearers would have understood this, as well as the original readers of the story in the Gospel texts.

The father does not wait for the son to humbly accept anything. The father rushes out, recklessly, to embrace his dead son. And in so doing, the son is restored to life to the father.

Empty hands of faith from beggars, now overflowing with the gifts of God who has become our Father in Christ.

Yes, we were in satan’s army against God, hating God, but it is a hard fight, the macho can stay to the end, but some wimp out, give up and surrender to out hate enemy while He is still our enemy. We are just willing to humbly accept pure undeserved charity from our enemy and that is all God needs to shower us with unbelievable wonderful gifts.

God needs nothing from us to shower us with His gifts. He has instead entered enemy territory, and loved the enemy soldiers and captives by spilling blood for them. And taking them out of enemy territory, brings them into His house and calls them children. Holy, just, and blameless in His sight. All on account of His Son.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[Clare73]

By just saying "forgiveness" is "cancelling" the debt, your minimizing righteous forgiveness to something almost mechanical.

It is indeed that!

God is obligated in justice to cancel my debt when Christ has paid it.

True unconditional forgiveness is an act of Love for the debtor and God.

The love is his giving his own Son to pay the debt.

His obligation to cancel my debt because of faith is justice.

 

[Clare73]

No, he does not "pay himself" he is out the money and may have to declare bankruptcy.

Sorry you don't see the point.

 

[bling]

It is indeed that!

God is obligated in justice to cancel my debt when Christ has paid it.

The love is his giving his own Son to pay the debt.

His obligation to cancel my debt because of faith is justice.

What?? God is never "obligated" to do anything for us. The Bible never talks about God "cancelling our debt", but He forgives our debt.
Christ did not "pay" the debt, which is way beyond being paid, Christ paid the ransom. God forgave the debt.
You are right to realize if Christ had paid the debt, God would not have to forgive us and the debt would have been cancelled without being forgiven.

 

[Clare73]

What?? God is never "obligated" to do anything for us.

God is required to be just. If Jesus has paid for my sin, in justice God must cancel (forgive) it.

The Bible never talks about God "cancelling our debt", but He forgives our debt.
Christ did not "pay" the debt, which is way beyond being paid, Christ paid the ransom. God forgave the debt.

To forgive is to cancel.

You are right to realize if Christ had paid the debt, God would not have to forgive us and the debt would have been cancelled without being forgiven.

To forgive is to cancel a debt.

That's what ransom means.

 

[bling]

There are two ways to look at that. Ransom Theory would say that payment was made to ransom us from the devil, a key text here would be Hebrews 2:14. Satisfaction Theory sees the need to satisfy justice, such justice is satisfied in Christ bearing our sin in His body (1 Peter 2:24).

Colossians 2:13-14 is forgiveness in that there is a cancellation of debt. This is not in contradiction to the making satisfaction of righteousness (remembering that justice and righteousness are one and the same in Scripture), where Christ is the hilasmos for our sins (1 John 2:2), the one who atones, reconciles, expiates, is the propitiation--the amends-maker, the One who satisfies.

Scripture uses a lot of ways to describe the Mystery of the Atonement.

There is a third way to look at it:

Atonement is a huge misunderstood topic which all the theories do a poor job explaining, look at just one aspect they do not address:

The Bible refers to Jesus’ sacrifice as a literal ransom payment:

Mark 10:45 For even the Son of Man did not come to be served, but to serve, and to give his life as a ransom for many.”

1 Timothy 2:6 who gave himself as a ransom for all people. This has now been witnessed to at the proper time

Heb. 9: 15…now that he has died as a ransom to set them free from the sins committed under the first covenant.

We do have the blood specifically mentioned in Revelation 5:9 They sing a new song: “You are worthy to take the scroll and to open its seals, for you were slaughtered and by your blood you ransomed for God saints from every tribe and language and people and nation;

We should agree on:

1. Jesus life and death is the unbelievable huge ransom payment?

2. The ransom payment was made to set children free to go to the Kingdom and be with the Father?

3. Deity (Jesus and God both) made this unbelievable huge payment?

4. All these fit perfectly a ransom scenario?

5. The scripture is not describing Jesus’ cruel torturous death on the cross as being like a ransom payment, but as being a ransom payment?



Now think about this:

In the context of the time and people being addressed how would they have understood this idea of an unbelievable huge ransom being paid?

If it is not a kidnapping then there is no need for a huge “ransoming”, but the Bible tells us there is a ransom payment at least being offered and definitely made for “many” and “God’s saints” and there is a big time redemption (setting free).

Peter even helps us out more by contrasting the unbelievable huge payment of Christ to just a payment of silver and gold. Who might take silver and gold, so it can be a good analogy for Peter? 1 Peter 1:18 You know that you were ransomed from the futile ways inherited from your ancestors, not with perishable things like silver or gold,

A kidnapper, in general, holds back the parent’s children awaiting an acceptable ransom payment, so who do you blame for keeping children out of the Kingdom?

The Kidnapper cannot be God, since He is not an undeserving criminal kidnapper holding His own children back.

Also, the Kidnapper would not be satan, since God has the power to take from satan, without paying anything to satan. There is no cosmic Law saying you got to pay the kidnapper and it would be wrong to do so, if you could get around it and satan is fully undeserving.

We know death, sin and evil were concurred with Christ’s death and resurrection, but those are not tangible things needing to be paid anything.

So who is the kidnapper?

When you go up to a nonbelieving sinner, what are you trying to get him/her to accept: A doctrine, a denomination, a book, a theology, a church or something else. NO, you want the nonbeliever to accept “Jesus Christ and Him Crucified” and if he does accept a child of God is released to enter the Kingdom and be with God, but if the sinner rejects “Jesus Christ and Him crucifies” a child is kept out of the Kingdom.

Does this not sound very much like a kidnapping scenario with a ransom being offered?

“Jesus Christ and Him crucified” is described in scripture as the ransom payment?

Could the sinner holding a child of God out of the Kingdom of God, be described as a criminal kidnapper?

“Jesus Christ and Him crucified” is a huge sacrificial payment, like you find with children being ransomed?

Parents will make huge sacrificial payments to have their children released, but it is still up to the kidnapper to accept or reject the ransom.

Forgiveness releases one from punishment, but it does not necessarily account for all.

Let's consider an earthly example. A victim may forgive their abuser, but that does not mean the abuser is now in a state of righteousness in relation to the victim. I can forgive what was done to me, but the offender still remains in a state of their own guilt, especially if they are without any remorse for what they have done. If they do not come to me to make amends, then amends are not made even if I forgive them.

WOW!! Fully agree with the idea of more being needed, but you nor Christ cannot make “amends” for what was done.

First off: (From Matt. 18 and Luke 7) If the person humbly accepts pure undeserved charity as pure charity, they will Love in proportion to how much was forgiven, so being forgiven of an unbelievable huge sin debt will automatically produce an unbelievable huge Love (Godly type Love).

But even more is needed for us (God does not need anything more, He is a giver and not a getter).

Think about this:

There is a, one of a kind, Ming vase on your parent’s mantel that has been handed down by your great, great, grandmother. You, as a young person, get angry with your parents and smash the vase. You are later sorry about it and repent and your loving parent can easily forgive you. Since this was not your first rebellious action your father, in an act of Love, collects every little piece of the vase and you willingly work together with your father hours each night for a month painstakingly gluing the vase back together. The vase is returned to the mantel to be kept as a show piece, but according to Antique Road Show, it is worthless. Working with your father helped you develop a much stronger relationship, comfort in being around him and appreciation for his Love.

Was your father fair/just and would others see this as being fair discipline? Did this “punishment” help resolve the issue?

Was restitution made or was reconciliation made and would you feel comfortable/ justified standing by your father in the future?

Suppose after smashing the vase, repenting and forgiveness, your older brother says he will work with your father putting the vase together, so you can keep up with your social life. Would this scenario allow you to stand comfortable and justified by your father?

Suppose Jesus the magician waved his hands over the smashed vase and restored it perfectly to the previous condition, so there is really very little for you to be forgiven of or for you to do. Would this scenario allow you to stand comfortable and justified by your father?

What are the benefits of being lovingly disciplined?

Suppose it is not you that breaks the Ming vase but your neighbor breaks into your house because he does not like your family being so nice and smashes the Ming vase, but he is caught on a security camera. Your father goes to your neighbor with the box of pieces and offers to do the same thing with him as he offered to do with you, but the neighbor refuses. Your father explains: everything is caught on camera and he will be fined and go to jail, but the neighbor, although sorry about being caught, still refuses. The neighbor loses all he has and spends 10 years in jail. So was the neighbor fairly disciplined or fairly punished?

How does the neighbor’s punishment equal your discipline and how is it not equal?

Was the neighbor forgiven and if not why not?

Would there be a benefit to God’s other children, if those who refuse the just disciplining to be punished after their death for at least a while?

In Christ there is not only forgiveness, but amends are made. Christ has amended our relationship with God, by satisfying righteousness and presenting us before God as holy and righteous.

We cannot come to God to make amends and have our communion and relationship restored with Him. "Not by works of righteousness which we have done" as Paul says in Titus 3:5, and "not by works" as Paul says in Ephesians 2:9. But rather by the gift--the grace--of God alone.

Do you feel God needs amendment?

The work of restoring our relationship to Him is His work. in our sin, even as we were God's enemies, Christ died for us. God has not purchased us when we were friends, or even just as stranger, but rather He purchased us, loved us, came near to us when we were enemies. Even as we raged against Him, God loved us; even as we raged against Him, God reconciles and restores us and makes us right with Him.

He forgives us, and He comes to us and makes us right with Him. He steps in and gives us faith, and through faith gives us Christ's righteousness, Christ's innocence, Christ's goodness. All the good we did not have, He gives us, and then some, for He gives us Christ and all that Christ is. Exchanging our unworthiness for Christ's worthiness. Our unworthiness is nailed to the cross, and buried in the grave; Christ is risen and His life is now ours as a gift.

Our Godly type Love (which is way beyond anything we could learn, develop or payback) automatically is gifted to us when we humbly accept God’s Love in the form of forgiveness (Luke 7). It is not that we take on Christ’s Love, but this is our Godly type Love.

Be right with God would come from humbly correctly accepting God’s Loving discipline, and going through that disciplining with God/Christ (Being crucified with Christ empathetically).

Yes. But between those two things is adoption as children.

If you murder my child and I--somehow because I am unreasonably merciful--forgive you, that doesn't make you my child. But God, who is most unreasonable in His mercy, makes us--murderers all of us--His children by His grace.

OK

As children, then, God has become our Father in Christ; the Father of our Lord Jesus is now our Father as well. And it is now as children that, through the Spirit, we are being sanctified. That is where discipline and being a disciple, "Take up your cross and follow Me" happens. This is where "work out your salvation with fear and trembling" takes place. This is where "do not be hearers of the word only, but doers of the word" is found. This is where, "created for good works in Christ Jesus" is. That's sanctification, that's being shaped and molded by grace and the Spirit into the likeness and image of Christ.

When you came to the realization it was your personal sins which cause Christ to go to the cross, did you not feel a death blow to your heart (the worst feeling you could experience and live like those 3000 on Pentecost (Acts 2:37)? As your Love grows for Christ and you partake of the Lord’s Supper do you not feel an even stronger hurt and Love at the same time?

Justification is God's declaration of our being right with Him in Christ, because Christ has made satisfaction, Christ has satisfied all righteousness and unites the enemies of God with God and makes them children. We are forgiven and justified, this is most certainly true--and it is present in all the works and gifts of God: His Word and Sacraments. That we should always be comforted in our conscience that we belong to Christ, and if to Christ we belong to God; that God loves us, forgives us, reconciles us, keeps us, preserves us, both now and at the hour of our death--through faith which He grant us, works in us, strengthens us with by His grace.

Sanctification is the daily struggle between the old man and the new; between the flesh and the Spirit; the life of the cross-carrying disciple of Jesus Christ who needs the loving discipline of a good Father, that we should be corrected by the Law and comforted with the Gospel.



The son gave up the right to be called a son, and he knew it. That is why he comes to his father determined to be a slave. It would have been mercy enough to be given a roof over his head and fed daily as a servant in his father's house.

The father, however, would have none of that. The father does not concern himself with what the son deserves or doesn't deserve, but cares only that the son is alive, "My son who was dead, is now alive". The son was dead to the father because the son killed that relationship, the son terminated his sonship, rendering himself dead to his father and his father dead to him. Perhaps this is difficult for us to imagine because this was a very different culture than ours, but Jesus' original hearers would have understood this, as well as the original readers of the story in the Gospel texts.

The father does not wait for the son to humbly accept anything. The father rushes out, recklessly, to embrace his dead son. And in so doing, the son is restored to life to the father.

Empty hands of faith from beggars, now overflowing with the gifts of God who has become our Father in Christ.



God needs nothing from us to shower us with His gifts. He has instead entered enemy territory, and loved the enemy soldiers and captives by spilling blood for them. And taking them out of enemy territory, brings them into His house and calls them children. Holy, just, and blameless in His sight. All on account of His Son.

Just as the father of the prodigal son did not send servants after his son to bring him back nor did the father have servants drag the older son to the party, God allows us to make the choice if we have the information to make the choice, our choice. We do have to be willing to humbly accept the gifts and party as pure undeserved charity or we can be macho and willing to take the punishment we fully deserve and die in the pigsty of life.

 

[bling]

God is required to be just. If Jesus has paid for my sin, in justice God must cancel (forgive) it.

God has to do stuff to be consistent, but that is not “for us”, but for Himself.

God can be obligated to Himself, but not us.

If Christ “paid” the debt, then God is not forgiving the debt but enters “Account paid and cancelled” and not forgiven which applies only to debts not paid (Like you find in accounting).

To forgive is to cancel a debt.

That's what ransom means.

Cancel is not always forgiving, but to forgive does also cancel.

A ransom that is huge and frees a child to go to the child’s parents, is an undeserved payment, a criminal act, and the acceptable amount is set by the kidnapper.

 

[Clare73]

God has to do stuff to be consistent, but that is not “for us”, but for Himself.

God can be obligated to Himself, but not us.

Precisely, his justice requires that he cancel the debt of those who believe in and trust on the atoning work (blood, Ro 3:25) and person of Jesus Christ for their remission of sin and right standing with God; i.e. "not guilty," declared forensically righteous.

If Christ “paid” the debt, then God is not forgiving the debt but enters “Account paid and cancelled” and not forgiven which applies only to debts not paid (Like you find in accounting).

Previously addressed.

 

[concretecamper]

While everyone on this thread is satisfied with forgiveness (even though everyone can't seem to agree what it is), we should all strive to be reconciled with God.