How do you defend opposing capital punishment while supporting legal abortion?

[rahmiyn]

The sad thing is that Religion (Islam, Christianity, and Judaism) Condone such abhorrent practises. Practically the only religion that does not condone violence and wars, and killing is Buddhism!

That's actually not fully true. Jesus was non violent, and he taught precepts that strongly support non violence. It's just that not many versions of Christianity really follow these teachings of Jesus.

 

[lawtonfogle]

You can't have a half male/half female conjoined twin. Conjoined twins come from identical twins that split too late (usually after the 8 day mark of gestation). But, on the whole, yes, it is difficult to tell whether even identical twins are the same person because they will have identical DNA.

No, I am not talking about conjoined twins. This is far far rarer. It is when the embryos are only a couple cells, possibly only 2 or 4 cells, large. The two embryos of fraternal twins, or what would have been such, then stick together. The body chemistry then treats this conjoined mass as one person, and it develops not as conjoined twins, but as a single person. Yet, strange symmetry has been found, and a split down the middle where the left side is male and the right side is female is possible, though highly unlikely. But there is still only one entity, one person.

 

[lawtonfogle]

You have to remember, I'm speaking only as a follower of Christ, so my reply would be restricted to his example.

You would have to pose the same question to him, and ask him why when John the Baptist, who by his own claim was sent by God, was arrested and later beheaded, why didn't Jesus do anything to protect him. Why he didn't later call publicly for Herod's head as the best form of justice. He did not even call his many followers to gather in protest around Herod's palace (something--you'll find in Matthew's telling of the story--Herod feared greatly!). Jesus said nothing in protest to his followers about it. He didn't even try a peaceful appeal to Herod. He actually did nothing, and this was his own cousin to boot.

Later, when his followers told him JtB had been beheaded, Jesus went off to be alone. That was it!

And so, I consider this: Once I saw a news report of a mother who openly forgave her daughter's murderer saying that she was a Christian, and that only God can judge a human life. She left it at that, but I was impressed that she had done something only someone filled with God's Spirit can do. She forgave the most horrible offense one can imagine. She was following Christ's message to us about forgiveness.

If you will, I would ask you a question. What do you believe Jesus meant when he talked about forgiveness, and especially why he emphasized "turn the other cheek?" What does he really mean by such teachings, and are they something we must consider? Again, I'm only speaking as a Christian, a follower of Christ, who really wants to take these teachings very seriously (with God's help!)

Well, would you ever participate in or support imprisonment? You say you cannot do the same for capital punishment because we are not to judge.

As to what I believe, I see the Bible clearly says we are to judge, but we must be very careful of doing such, because we will be held to what ever standard you hold another to. If you hold others to a higher standard than yourself, then God is going to get you on it.

As to the turn the cheek. Well, the literal nature is that one only has two cheeks (or four, but we aren't counting those two). So the first bit of wisdom is to give people second chances, because there are those who will go out and hurt you, but either not mean to, or repent of it right after they have done so.

I also believe that if one truly repents, then you are to forgive them. It takes wisdom to tell when they truly do repent, and sometimes one cannot tell.

 

[lux et lex]

No, I am not talking about conjoined twins. This is far far rarer. It is when the embryos are only a couple cells, possibly only 2 or 4 cells, large. The two embryos of fraternal twins, or what would have been such, then stick together. The body chemistry then treats this conjoined mass as one person, and it develops not as conjoined twins, but as a single person. Yet, strange symmetry has been found, and a split down the middle where the left side is male and the right side is female is possible, though highly unlikely. But there is still only one entity, one person.

Not to derail this convo too much, but take a look at this article. http://www.umm.edu/conjoined_twins/facts.htm

 

[lux et lex]

No, I am not talking about conjoined twins. This is far far rarer. It is when the embryos are only a couple cells, possibly only 2 or 4 cells, large. The two embryos of fraternal twins, or what would have been such, then stick together. The body chemistry then treats this conjoined mass as one person, and it develops not as conjoined twins, but as a single person. Yet, strange symmetry has been found, and a split down the middle where the left side is male and the right side is female is possible, though highly unlikely. But there is still only one entity, one person.

Not to derail this convo too much, but take a look at this article. http://www.umm.edu/conjoined_twins/facts.htm

 

[rahmiyn]

Well, would you ever participate in or support imprisonment?

I'm not sure how to answer your question. Maybe you could ask a more specific question, which I would then try to answer..

As to what I believe, I see the Bible clearly says we are to judge, but we must be very careful of doing such, because we will be held to what ever standard you hold another to. If you hold others to a higher standard than yourself, then God is going to get you on it.

What I'm really saying here is that I can't find any teaching Jesus gave us that tells us to judge, under any circumstance--again, I'm only talking about those who follow him.

As to the turn the cheek. Well, the literal nature is that one only has two cheeks (or four, but we aren't counting those two). So the first bit of wisdom is to give people second chances, because there are those who will go out and hurt you, but either not mean to, or repent of it right after they have done so.

The same is true here. Jesus didn't qualify particular reasons why we might consider not having to turn the other cheek. He simply says we must turn the other cheek. I do believe he means in all cases. It is up to us to accept that this is what he meant, and it will be up to us to explain ourselves to him when he asks us why we didn't follow him in this.

I also believe that if one truly repents, then you are to forgive them. It takes wisdom to tell when they truly do repent, and sometimes one cannot tell.

Again, Jesus never provides conditions like this. We forgive those who hurt us whether they have repented or not. And he tells us seventy-times-seven, which to me sounds as if he's saying always, we always forgive, over and over and over.

We simply cannot live this way without the comfort, wisdom, and grace that only the Holy Spirit can impart to us. Without this, Jesus honestly sounds as if he's out of his mind to expect this of those who choose to follow him. I truly believe he was not out of his mind, but he did come with a message he said would divide like a sword, and I believe this is what he meant by that. To truly follow him, you must have the Holy Spirit's help. There is no other way.

 

[b&wpac4]

That's actually not fully true. Jesus was non violent, and he taught precepts that strongly support non violence. It's just that not many versions of Christianity really follow these teachings of Jesus.

I would hardly consider someone that ran into a temple and whipped people out "non violent".

 

[rahmiyn]

I would hardly consider someone that ran into a temple and whipped people out "non violent".

There's a couple of things I considered when I read this, which I would agree could present Jesus as being contradictory in his commands. First, he is God's son, part of the Godhead and Judge. Secondly, he is at the Temple, his father's house, and he's driving out money lenders who are cheating people with gouging exchange rates, people who had traveled a long way to purchase and present a sacrifice to the Temple priests (a topic that would become clearly Jesus' focus by the time all was said and done).

In this particular event, he is showing his contempt for such practices being in his father's house. Now, we know that an equally oppressive gouging was going on outside the Temple, as was highlighted in Jesus' answer to the question about taxes (render unto Caesar. . . ). Now if you really understood how high the taxes were, how much suffering it caused the Jews in particular to have to pay them, (and don't even get into just what all these taxes funded. ) you really do have to ask the question why Jesus would simply tell them to pay the taxes and not create a similar protest against what really was a terrible injustice in those days.

In another contrasting example, we really have to consider how Jesus handled being arrested, beaten, and finally crucified like a common criminal. He asks God to forgive them. And, I believe he asks us to as well, no matter the seeming cost to us now.

To summarize, I believe the difference shows how much more harshly God will judge those polluting his church over those in the world who, without God's Spirit, don't know what they are doing.

 

[b&wpac4]

So, whipping people and driving them out was an acceptable act for him, instead of, perhaps, teaching them they were wrong to, as you accuse, overcharge people? Sorry, I don't buy into that philosophy.

When the system was given an overhaul by a leading rabbi, after Jesus died and before the Temple was destroyed, no whips were involved, no throwing people out, and no violence was required.

 

[rahmiyn]

So, whipping people and driving them out was an acceptable act for him, instead of, perhaps, teaching them they were wrong to, as you accuse, overcharge people? Sorry, I don't buy into that philosophy.

And, that's where we differ. I trust that he knew exactly what he was doing from God's perspective. I mean, if we believe what the Bible says about God, he will judge very harshly the Pharisaical presence among his followers who lead others into blindness. If you read Jesus' woes, they are directed to religious leaders. My guess is he knew then what we know now. Religious, arrogant leaders are hard to correct, because they fool themselves that their tainted philosophies are from God. I mean, they can be persistently stubborn. Was this the case with those he drove from the Temple? I believe yes, quite strongly actually.

As you so rightly state, it is something we either buy into or we don't. And I buy into anything he did as a visible representation for us of God's will.

But, I fear we are derailing this thread a bit. :o The subject of capital punishment here seems to me to require two different approaches: how those who follow Jesus should view their role, as opposed to everyone else. There will be a difference, if I understand his teachings correctly.

 

[tanzanos]

That's actually not fully true. Jesus was non violent, and he taught precepts that strongly support non violence. It's just that not many versions of Christianity really follow these teachings of Jesus.

I agree but those precepts that support non violence are nullified within the Bible; especially when one takes into account the Atrocious and evil OT. If Christianity held onto only what Jesus taught then yes it would be a religion of peace!

 

[eMesreveR]

That's actually not fully true. Jesus was non violent, and he taught precepts that strongly support non violence. It's just that not many versions of Christianity really follow these teachings of Jesus.

Yes. Only your sect of Christianity, and perhaps the ones that agree with it, are true Christians. Everyone else is faking. Or mistaken. In any case, they're not real Christians. You are, though.

 

[rahmiyn]

Yes. Only your sect of Christianity, and perhaps the ones that agree with it, are true Christians. Everyone else is faking. Or mistaken. In any case, they're not real Christians. You are, though.

That is my hope, but the truth is, only God will judge whether I am or not. Jesus will reject some who follow him, as he indicates by his story in Matthew. If you read the account, they protest saying they did some pretty admirable things in his name, things people with gifts in our churches do today. But, he turns them away, and he tells them he doesn't know them. The parable of the sheep and goats someone quoted above teaches us the same thing, as does the wheat and tares parables. The thing we often miss is that sheep and goats are in the same family, and one can't distinguish wheat from tares until the fruit appears, until the time of harvest. So, there will be many who call him Lord, but he will reject them. Am I one? I sincerely hope I am not.

It is because of this, though, that I seek so to elevate Jesus' teachings above all other interpretations, in my own life. Having said that, I can see where I would not pass his test, as I may not be feeding the hungry, etc. . . in the way he expects us to. I think it's something we strive for our whole life, to follow him in the way he asks us to (as opposed to following the doctrines of men that seem to make better sense, something Jesus' teachings do not easily accomplish.)

 

[rahmiyn]

I agree but those precepts that support non violence are nullified within the Bible; especially when one takes into account the Atrocious and evil OT. If Christianity held onto only what Jesus taught then yes it would be a religion of peace!

I agree, tanzanos, that there are sections of the Bible that bother me, the parts where men kill women and children when possessing a promised piece of land.

But, the truth is, what I've gained most from the old testament is the consistent pattern, the constant theme of how different our lives our when we trust fully in God as opposed to trusting in earthly promises (revealed most in those days by pagan practices that today would be something like playing the lottery, then knocking on wood, throwing salt over ones shoulders, or giving money or things to a church out of fear one will be impoverished.) If the chosen people were trusting in God, if their leader was a godly leader who encouraged the people to trust in God, this pleased him, and they're lives went well.

I do believe when we seek our daily comforts in other ways, when we act out of fear of the unknown future (something that is increasingly becoming a challenge in today's unstable economy), especially when those actions lead us towards greed, fear, lying, stealing, and perhaps worst of all: cheating others on the hopes for our own gain, then I believe we walk away from his favor. It's not that he then sends a lightning bolt down on us, because we rejected him. To me, it's more that we walk away from that which he wants us to take, but we must first have faith in him, before he will bestow the blessings on us.

This is the kind of thing I couldn't understand until I began walking in faith. I think it's one of those things we can only truly understand by God's grace.

 

[tanzanos]

I agree, tanzanos, that there are sections of the Bible that bother me, the parts where men kill women and children when possessing a promised piece of land.

But, the truth is, what I've gained most from the old testament is the consistent pattern, the constant theme of how different our lives our when we trust fully in God as opposed to trusting in earthly promises (revealed most in those days by pagan practices that today would be something like playing the lottery, then knocking on wood, throwing salt over ones shoulders, or giving money or things to a church out of fear one will be impoverished.) If the chosen people were trusting in God, if their leader was a godly leader who encouraged the people to trust in God, this pleased him, and they're lives went well.

I do believe when we seek our daily comforts in other ways, when we act out of fear of the unknown future (something that is increasingly becoming a challenge in today's unstable economy), especially when those actions lead us towards greed, fear, lying, stealing, and perhaps worst of all: cheating others on the hopes for our own gain, then I believe we walk away from his favor. It's not that he then sends a lightning bolt down on us, because we rejected him. To me, it's more that we walk away from that which he wants us to take, but we must first have faith in him, before he will bestow the blessings on us.

This is the kind of thing I couldn't understand until I began walking in faith. I think it's one of those things we can only truly understand by God's grace.

At least we agree to disagree!

 

[rahmiyn]

At least we agree to disagree!

Cheers, tanzanos.

 

[rosenherman]

A liver cell is "alive and human", so it should be immoral to kill one of my liver cells, right?

If you don't know the difference between a liver and a human being, I sure don't want to eat at your house.

 

[tanzanos]

If you don't know the difference between a liver and a human being, I sure don't want to eat at your house.

Hey how about the trillions of Sperm cells that go down the drain? Surely they are deserving of sentient human status; after all they not only have mobility but they seem to know how to navigate also

 

[FU(K(HRIST]

umm... honestly. There is a point when a person becomes a person. it is when they can think and survive without the need of someone else. once they are a person its not your right to decide whether or not they live or die.

 

[UncleHermit]

Hey how about the trillions of Sperm cells that go down the drain? Surely they are deserving of sentient human status; after all they not only have mobility but they seem to know how to navigate also

I like to think that their futile quests for life is at least as symbolic as mine. Poor lucky little guys.