How Do You Deal With This?

[Greatfull]

I believe in Election. Was exposed to it in a Christian college. Then I remember now that I tried to forget it. I have not really forgotten about election but I have not thought about it like I have been since reading about it again. I have guilt thoughts. Why have I been saved. There are people in this world that are not evil people who try to hurt others but they will spend eternity in Hell if they don't apply the plan of Salvation to themselves. I feel really bad about that. It makes me realize the tragic situation they are in. If they live a long life and experience many beautiful things of this world then have to spend eternity in Hell...........................It's just hard to understand that. Eternity is forever and the good life that they have here on earth seems meaningless to me. It was just a time that they were not in Hell. My tag is Greatfull because that is how I feel. That God chose me. But the guilt thoughts don't go away. But that would be such a light burden to bear when I think of the lost and what is in store for them.

 

[heymikey80]

I believe in Election. Was exposed to it in a Christian college. Then I remember now that I tried to forget it. I have not really forgotten about election but I have not thought about it like I have been since reading about it again. I have guilt thoughts. Why have I been saved.

You've been saved because God had mercy on you.

Honestly, escaping any trauma in which people like you undergo violence, that brings about thoughts of guilt. Why am I saved? Why didn't I go through that? How am I any different?

You're truly not different, at least not in your own thoughts & actions. It's not you. It's God. And it's not capriciousness on His part. If any of us deserved saving, then all of us would, and we might have something to condemn God for. But none of us deserves saving.

In fact we so richly don't deserve it, our guilt feelings, our embarrassment over receiving it -- is richly deserved. But that embarrassment shouldn't be directed at people who also richly deserve it -- and neglect so great a salvation. Many are nice people. But they're not good people. Many treat others kindly -- just not justly. Many have a human level of hygiene, social awareness, love for those around them, and social action. That justification won't even justify their actions in the next century, much less eternity. Look at the past: why will future generations justify us? We haven't affirmed any past generation as just.

God knows this. God judges. We all are guilty -- far more than even we can see simply by looking into the past for some perspective.

We are far worse than we've ever imagined.
And far more loved than we've ever conceived as possible.

 

[gort]

You've been saved because God had mercy on you.

Honestly, escaping any trauma in which people like you undergo violence, that brings about thoughts of guilt. Why am I saved? Why didn't I go through that? How am I any different?

You're truly not different, at least not in your own thoughts & actions. It's not you. It's God. And it's not capriciousness on His part. If any of us deserved saving, then all of us would, and we might have something to condemn God for. But none of us deserves saving.

In fact we so richly don't deserve it, our guilt feelings, our embarrassment over receiving it -- is richly deserved. But that embarrassment shouldn't be directed at people who also richly deserve it -- and neglect so great a salvation. Many are nice people. But they're not good people. Many treat others kindly -- just not justly. Many have a human level of hygiene, social awareness, love for those around them, and social action. That justification won't even justify their actions in the next century, much less eternity. Look at the past: why will future generations justify us? We haven't affirmed any past generation as just.

God knows this. God judges. We all are guilty -- far more than even we can see simply by looking into the past for some perspective.

We are far worse than we've ever imagined.
And far more loved than we've ever conceived as possible.

I agree with what you say. We don't deserve it. We all don't deserve it and agree that we're all far worse off than imaginable.

But why were you chosen?

I can agree to reformed theology, but my main sticking point is election.

 

[hlaltimus]

My tag is Greatfull because that is how I feel. That God chose me. But the guilt thoughts don't go away.

Assuming that you do not deliberately choose to feel guilty, only two other sources of this guilt are likely to be possible: The Holy Spirit of God and the Accuser of the Brethren...(Satan).
If your a true Christian, (and it sounds like you are,) that is if you really do love the Lord out a deep appreciation for Him over all that He has graciously done for you, then you can rule out a conviction of biting guilt as having come from the Holy Spirit since, "For you did not receive the Spirit of bondage again to fear, but you received the Spirit of adoption by whom we cry out, 'Abba, Father.' " Romans 8:15
The Holy Spirit does convict for sin, but He will not condemn for sin since a perfect substitute was found to absorb that penalty of yours given you presently exercise faith in His sacrificial atonement. Nor will the Holy Spirit induce any gloomy fear of pending penal or punitive judgment for exactly the same reason: Christ beat you to it and now you are "off the hook" in point of God's retributive wrath and forever "hook, line and sinker" in love with such a wonderful Redeemer. You, (We,) must still face a non-penal judgment...Yes, a penal judgment...No.

You might want to try a little experiment next time your "guilt" harasses you: Assume for the sake of a process of elimination that this guilt just might be coming from the "Accuser of the Brethren". "Agree with thine enemy" and admit that you fully, originally deserved not only guilt but punishment for any and all issues of which you were truly guilty, and then plead the blood of Christ against that sinister and illegitimate guilt and then promptly tell your accuser to "Be quiet!" This issue was permanently settled over two thousand years ago outside of Jerusalem and he, the accuser, lost that battle to Christ forever.

As to the "sticking point" of the doctrine of eternal election, I happen to be a modified Calvinist right now, disagreeing with both Arminius and Calvin over their views on election. Calvin must surely be correct in point of principle as he saw God as being antecedent to any and all events or actions of all inferior creatures, (Us!) Common sense demands an infinite Creator of all of what we can see, and surely of all of what we yet cannot see, and if He is properly infinite then out of necessity He must also be "before all things" just as the scriptures represent Him. I think that the problem with election is that it is an eternal election or a "marking out" which marking out took place in His state of eternity and we haven't the foggiest idea of what this truly means. The position of the triune God in eternity and the position of both angels and saints there differs enormously: He, God, occupies an unfixed conscious moment while they, the angels and saints, still occupy a fixed conscious moment in eternity. What this would imply is that when God elects from His eternal position, (it being not the position that a glorified angel or saint would enjoy,) His eternal position, being an unfixed one, comprehends all the conscious points of our one relative fixed moment of consciousness. To explain it differently: You are currently fixedly conscious of whatever screen you may happen to be reading at this moment...That's a fixed moment of consciousness. But suppose that every single such moment in your entire past life or yet to be life was included in that one conscious moment when you sat in front of the computer screen. Here you can see the sheer, pompous idiocy of Lucifer coveting the status of being a "God"! If God were to make a determinative choice in eternity as concerns an event or action in time, He could make such a choice in what we would call our future state of eternity and there wouldn't be the slightest difference in this reckoning than if it had been made in what we would call our unconscious past. There is no past, current or future in this Being's conscious moment because He is the Eternal One in eternity and that puts Him an infinity beyond our computation.

I'm still working on it, but you need not worry over eternal election due to any problems that have arisen over the views of either Calvin or Arminius. Both of these old thinkers were far more intelligent than I ever will be, but they just didn't properly grasp eternal election and I wouldn't let any "hand-me-down" worries consequent to their concepts trouble you.
God knows what He is doing...We don't.

 

[BBAS 64]

I agree with what you say. We don't deserve it. We all don't deserve it and agree that we're all far worse off than imaginable.

But why were you chosen?

I can agree to reformed theology, but my main sticking point is election.

Good Day, Gort

Eph 1:11 In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:

Because he worketh out all things according to his will...


U -- unconditional election. God chooses to save people unconditionally; that is, they are not chosen on the basis of their own merit.

In Him,

Bill

 

[bradfordl]

But why were you chosen?

For the reason given in scripture:

Rom 9:21-24 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour? (22) What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction: (23) And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory, (24) Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?

 

[McWilliams]

'In this day of multiple human 'rights', most people wrongly assume that God owes us something--salvation, or at least a chance at salvation. He shows astonishing favor to many, but He does not have to(that is the essence of grace). If He were obliged to be gracious, grace would no longer be grace and salvation would be based on human merit rather than being sola gratia. This is why the doctrine of election is opposed by so many. It doesnt seem 'fair' to them. But as soon as we introduce the doctrine of fairness, we introduce a standard of right by which God has to save all or at least give everyone an equal chance of being saved. And that is not grace!! If God were motivated only by what is right, without any consideration of grace made possible by the work of Christ, all would be condemned, and all would spend eternity in hell. Humbled, we celebrate a 'Declaration of Dependence', agreeing that we are endowed with alienable (transferred to us from our Creator) rights.

pg 121,122 Tell the Truth,A Training Manual on the Message and Methods of God-Centered Witnessing, by Will Metzger

I was just reviewing this and it seems to fit in here!
Soli deo gloria
This is a great book on how calvinists evangelize!

 

[BBAS 64]

'In this day of multiple human 'rights', most people wrongly assume that God owes us something--salvation, or at least a chance at salvation. He shows astonishing favor to many, but He does not have to(that is the essence of grace). If He were obliged to be gracious, grace would no longer be grace and salvation would be based on human merit rather than being sola gratia. This is why the doctrine of election is opposed by so many. It doesnt seem 'fair' to them. But as soon as we introduce the doctrine of fairness, we introduce a standard of right by which God has to save all or at least give everyone an equal chance of being saved. And that is not grace!! If God were motivated only by what is right, without any consideration of grace made possible by the work of Christ, all would be condemned, and all would spend eternity in hell. Humbled, we celebrate a 'Declaration of Dependence', agreeing that we are endowed with alienable (transferred to us from our Creator) rights.

pg 121,122 Tell the Truth,A Training Manual on the Message and Methods of God-Centered Witnessing, by Will Metzger

I was just reviewing this and it seems to fit in here!
Soli deo gloria
This is a great book on how calvinists evangelize!

Good Day, Mcwilliams

Great quote....

I have changed my reading habits for now and Evanglism is my first topic.... I have recived 4 books on the subject and this is not one of them....

I added Mark Devers book, with I have not purchased yet. How many books should I read on a given subject.

Speaking of books, are you looking to "clear" some out?

In Him,

Bill

 

[Hackett]

I have the 'Tell the Truth' on my book shelf. It has been a while since I read it. Sounds like I will be reading it again. I recall that it does a lot of good info in it. That is a good reminder..thanks McW

 

[gort]

'In this day of multiple human 'rights', most people wrongly assume that God owes us something--salvation, or at least a chance at salvation. He shows astonishing favor to many, but He does not have to(that is the essence of grace). If He were obliged to be gracious, grace would no longer be grace and salvation would be based on human merit rather than being sola gratia. This is why the doctrine of election is opposed by so many. It doesnt seem 'fair' to them. But as soon as we introduce the doctrine of fairness, we introduce a standard of right by which God has to save all or at least give everyone an equal chance of being saved. And that is not grace!! If God were motivated only by what is right, without any consideration of grace made possible by the work of Christ, all would be condemned, and all would spend eternity in hell. Humbled, we celebrate a 'Declaration of Dependence', agreeing that we are endowed with alienable (transferred to us from our Creator) rights.

pg 121,122 Tell the Truth,A Training Manual on the Message and Methods of God-Centered Witnessing, by Will Metzger

I was just reviewing this and it seems to fit in here!
Soli deo gloria
This is a great book on how calvinists evangelize!

For me, it's not a case of God has to be fair to everyone. Being convicted of sin by the Holy Spirit leaves one with the understanding that there is no arguement I can stand pat on at all that I deserve or am obligating God to save me.
But there are many who do hold to the view that GOd is obligated.

I've tried for several days to hold the view that I personally was chosen back in the eternities and it certainly had a deeply humbling effect. But that view segued into the thought that there are others who were not chosen to eternal life and to me, this conflicts with the nature of God:

1. Who desires all to come to repentence
2. Is not willing that any should perish
3. Makes God a respector of persons

 

[McWilliams]

Actually scripture has more to say about God's wrath than His love!
The most eye opening and helpful book for me about God's sovereignty is The Sovereignty of God by A.W. Pink and its available online. For me it was such a great 'wow' and coming to understand who our holy God truly is and how we must relate to Him! Its all about Him! Remember we have no rights and that includes those who you're thinking about that are 'left out'. Those who are left out have no desire at all to know Him and have chosen their own way of sin and hell. Soooo, we all get what we want! For me, I am so grateful for His mercy and grace! I thank Him!

http://www.reformed.org/books/pink/

 

[Erinwilcox]

There are people in this world that are not evil people who try to hurt others but they will spend eternity in Hell if they don't apply the plan of Salvation to themselves.

I think that an understanding of this issue would be key in helping you to overcome your feelings of guilt.

First of all, realize that God is holy. Simple right? Well, sometimes it is difficult to comprehend just HOW holy God is. He is so holy that He cannot abide sin, no matter how "small." Sin is sin. Everyone in this world is a sinful person. There is not one person who hasn't sinned.


For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God; Romans 3:23

As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one: Romans 3:10

All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the LORD hath laid on him the iniquity of us all. Isaiah 53:6


Another important thing to realize is that unbelief is a sin. Any time someone breaks a commandment of God, that is a sin and all men everywhere have been commanded to repent.

And saying, The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand: repent ye, and believe the gospel. Mark 1:15

Truly, these times of ignorance God overlooked, but now commands all men everywhere to repent, Acts. 17:30

If God has commanded all men to believe, then for them to disobey this command is a sin.


Now it is often said that isn't fair for God to command all men to repent, hold them responsible for repenting, and then to elect some to eternal life and damn the rest. However, RESPONSIBILITY does not imply ABILITY. God gave us the ten commandments and, apart from Jesus Christ, not one man has EVER been able to keep them perfectly. But wouldn't most Christians agree that lying, stealing, adultery, and taking the Lord's name in vain are all sins? Yes. But he was commanded to obey (in other words not sin). Still, he is held responsible for his actions. Adam chose to sin and with him fell the entire human race. Man is sinful. Man has the choice and the command to obey God and believe in Him, but does he? No. That brings us to total depravity. Given the choice, man will never choose God. In his fallen, sinful state, man will ALWAYS choose sin. Choosing God would be a good thing, a good work, an act of obedience (since to not believe is disobedience), but the Bible clearly teaches that there is none that does good and none who seeks after God.
Rom 3:10 As it is written:

"There is none righteous, no, not one;
Rom 3:11There is none who understands;
There is none who seeks after God.
Rom 3:12 They have all turned aside;
They have together become unprofitable;
There is none who does good, no, not one."[fn2]
Rom 3:13 "Their throat is an open tomb;
With their tongues they have practiced deceit";[fn3]
"The poison of asps is under their lips";[fn4]
Rom 3:14 "Whose mouth is full of cursing and bitterness."[fn5]
Rom 3:15 "Their feet are swift to shed blood;
Rom 3:16 Destruction and misery are in their ways;
Rom 3:17 And the way of peace they have not known."[fn6]
Rom 3:18 "There is no fear of God before their eyes."[fn7]




Therefore, if God did not elect men unto Himself, there would BE nobody saved. Men are damned because they choose to reject God and men are saved, not by any righteousness on their part, but because God, in His infinite goodness and mercy, chose to save them.

I don't generally like to cite huge chunks of Scripture because its all to easy for people to just slap down some verses and then say "aha! My case is proved!" but I do think that I must include this portion:


Ephesians - Chapter 2:1-9
¶And you [hath he quickened], who were dead in trespasses and sins;Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us,
Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved)
And hath raised [us] up together, and made [us] sit together in heavenly [places] in Christ Jesus:That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in [his] kindness toward us through Christ Jesus.For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: [it is] the gift of God:Not of works, lest any man should boast.


God chose us, quickened us, saved us, and gave us the gift of salvation and it was NOT of any work that we had done. So when God saves us, it is not a cruel thing for the rest of the world--they choose to disobey Him and reject Him.

God created man. We are here to bring Him glory in all that we do. He has the freedom to do with us as He pleased. What if He'd created us, let Adam sin, and then never sent Christ? Would that be wrong of Him? No, it would be JUST. All men DESERVE the justice of God, but He chooses to have mercy on some. He can do whatever He chooses with us (He is the Potter, we the clay) and He has chosen to show us mercy.

Friend, you have been saved because God chose you. Thank and praise Him for this. Know that "There but the grace of God go you" in the ways of sinners--God didn't have to save you, but He did. Election doesn't mean that we can kick back and relax and leave the rest of the world all up to God. He uses means and has commanded for us to share the Gospel with the lost. God causes the rain to shine on the just and on the unjust. He has given so many blessings to the unregenerate here on Earth. They have the same opportunity and the same command as we to repent and turn to God. He has blessed them enormously and they will not be able to claim ignorance at the last day, for even the creation proclaims the glory of God. God is holy and He is just, but he is also merciful and loving. Rejoice (but do not gloat) in your salvation, Proclaim the Word to the lost, and Rest in the knowledge that you serve a sovereign God.

 

[bradfordl]

A few questions:

1. Who desires all to come to repentence

Can you show this from scripture used in it's proper context?

2. Is not willing that any should perish

Same question as above.

3. Makes God a respector of persons

Could you define what you think the term "respector of persons" means?

Thanks

 

[McWilliams]

Speaking of books, are you looking to "clear" some out?

Hey there Bill, so good that you're studying evangelism! What an open field and great need!! The Tell the Truth book can be bought at Amazon for 10.00 including postage used. I was preparing to loan this book out and started scanning thru it and cant put it down! Great book!

I'll have to check the bookcase and see whats there!

Blessings,

 

[gort]

Actually scripture has more to say about God's wrath than His love!
The most eye opening and helpful book for me about God's sovereignty is The Sovereignty of God by A.W. Pink and its available online. For me it was such a great 'wow' and coming to understand who our holy God truly is and how we must relate to Him! Its all about Him! Remember we have no rights and that includes those who you're thinking about that are 'left out'. Those who are left out have no desire at all to know Him and have chosen their own way of sin and hell. Soooo, we all get what we want! For me, I am so grateful for His mercy and grace! I thank Him!

http://www.reformed.org/books/pink/

Thanx for the linky. I have partially read one of Pinks works:http://www.lgmarshall.org/Pink/pink_depravity.html

I did enjoy reading what I have so far. Of particular note is this passage:

Third, Adam’s liability to falling lay in the freedom of his will. He was not only a rational creature, but also a moral one.

 

[gort]

A few questions:

Can you show this from scripture used in it's proper context?

Same question as above.

Could you define what you think the term "respector of persons" means?

Thanks

2Pe 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

With predestination on my mind, I can see this referring to the elect; God is purposely minded that none of the elect to perish.

Prior to entering this forum to ask questions, I viewed is God not desiring any at all to perish.

willing

boulomai

1) to will deliberately, have a purpose, be minded

2) of willing as an affection, to desire

http://cf.blueletterbible.org/lang/lexicon/lexicon.cfm?Strongs=G1014&Version=kjv

Act 10:34 ¶ Then Peter opened [his] mouth, and said, Of a truth I perceive that God is no respecter of persons:

Act 10:35 But in every nation he that feareth him, and worketh righteousness, is accepted with him.

Ok, my bad. Context refers to nations; God does not discriminate both according to what Peter saw and was told by Cornelius, a Roman centurion.


Thanx for pointing this out.

 

[mlqurgw]

2Pe 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

With predestination on my mind, I can see this referring to the elect; God is purposely minded that none of the elect to perish.

Prior to entering this forum to ask questions, I viewed is God not desiring any at all to perish.





Ok, my bad. Context refers to nations; God does not discriminate both according to what Peter saw and was told by Cornelius, a Roman centurion.


Thanx for pointing this out.

I am very thankful that our gracious God has stuck His finger of grace into your heart and begun shedding the light of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ to your heart and mind. It is amazing how the Scriptures begin to open up as you begin to see how it is that God saves sinners such as we are. A friend once commented to me, " It is as though someone took my Bible away and gave me a new one." You will find that most of what you have been taught in free- will religion simply isn't what the Scriptures say.
Now in an effort to help you along the way I will give you the key to unlock the truth of Scriptures: Jesus Christ. The Scriptures aren't about the history of a people or how they worshipped but about the person and work of Christ. Every doctrine taught in them is in the context of the Gospel of Christ. Election isn't salvation but unto salvation, 2Thess. 2:13. We were chosen in Christ before the foundation of the world, Eph. 1:4. He is our wisdom, righteousness, sanctification and redemption. 1Cor. 1:30. He is the Prophet, Priest and King. He is the message of the Book and all the types and pictures are of Him. John 5:39 If I would reccommend just one commentator that always points you to Christ it would be Robert Hawker. You can find his New Testament commentary here:
http://grace-ebooks.com/library/index.php?dir=Hawker, Robert/

 

[heymikey80]

For me, it's not a case of God has to be fair to everyone. Being convicted of sin by the Holy Spirit leaves one with the understanding that there is no arguement I can stand pat on at all that I deserve or am obligating God to save me.
But there are many who do hold to the view that GOd is obligated.

But this wouldn't make sense, in principle or in Scripture.

If justification is a free gift of grace (cf. Ep 2:8-10) then it can't be an obligated gift.

I've tried for several days to hold the view that I personally was chosen back in the eternities and it certainly had a deeply humbling effect.

In Calvinism the critical point here is chosen, undeservedly. Humility can occur before a group you respect, even if you feel you deserve their accolades.

Here you don't deserve what you're getting. The humility is born (pun intended) out of not simply the God of the Universe choosing you -- it's out of the God of the Universe rescuing you from the horror you richly deserve for your evil actions. And no action you've taken really pays God back for that. "It takes more than your saline eyes to make things right."

But that view segued into the thought that there are others who were not chosen to eternal life and to me, this conflicts with the nature of God:

1. Who desires all to come to repentence
2. Is not willing that any should perish
3. Makes God a respector of persons

On 1 & 2, if this were God's nature, then none would perish, all would come to repentance. There's no "doorstop" immovable object of free will that would get in the way of God's nature. He'd just have made a different universe in which all would have come to repentance.

2 Pt 3:9 is not a good support for 1 & 2. "The Lord is not slack concerning his promise ... but is patient with you": here Peter is talking specifically about those who will have faith, those who will be saved.

On 3, this idea misses the critical point of unconditional election -- it's unconditional. If God's not respecting any attribute of the person, how can God be called a "respector of persons"? In fact the opposite is true. Those who have God looking into the future to find some attribute in people that cause God to save them -- and promoting that attribute undeservedly into His cause for their salvation -- that would be respect of persons before unconditional election could ever be so considered.

In fact "respect of persons" is simply a way of talking about higher consideration for someone with social status, class, or ethnicity. If it's anything more, it's something non-Calvinists need to watch out for. Among Calvinists it's an error -- disbelieving Unconditional Election.

 

[bradfordl]

Who is Peter addressing in this epistle?

2Pe 1:1-4 Simon Peter, a servant and an apostle of Jesus Christ, to them that have obtained like precious faith with us through the righteousness of God and our Saviour Jesus Christ: (2) Grace and peace be multiplied unto you through the knowledge of God, and of Jesus our Lord, (3) According as his divine power hath given unto us all things that pertain unto life and godliness, through the knowledge of him that hath called us to glory and virtue: (4) Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises: that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust.

A certain group of people, right? Those who have obtained a like precious faith. So when a few verses later he makes this statement:

2Pe 3:7-9 But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men. (8) But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day. (9) The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

The words any and all must refer to the group defined by the words beloved and us-ward, or for what reason would he refer to ungodly men for whom fire is reserved? If God were not willing that those ungodly men perish, what power in the universe is capable of thwarting His will? But no, He is so set on their destruction that He has reserved fire for them. That imagery does not have connotations of a hand-wringing would-be saviour suffering the defeat of his intentions by the superior authority of any man's free will, does it? I doubt He would be reserving that fire for people He was hoping wouldn't end up there. God doesn't hope for things, He ordains all His will to be.

Isa 46:9-10 Remember the former things of old: for I am God, and there is none else; I am God, and there is none like me, (10) Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure

 

[gort]

First off, I'd like to thank everyone for the sincere answers you've given. And apoligize to the OP for sidetracking this thread.

I am still vexed with the relationship of the sovereignty of God and the free will to choose or not choose God, if there is one at all.

My quandry wholly consists of the aspect of love in this. God loved me first of course. Freely loved me. Is this not a 2 way street? (rhetorical question)

Again, thanx. I've never spent any time at all on the doctrine of election until asking some questions to a couple calvinist friends and asking questions in this thread. Most of my time is spent contradicting mormon theology.