How do YECs explain the dinosaurs?

[Job 33:6]

Let me save you some time.


Another example:
"If you have 5 independent glaciations, one would anticipate this taking longer than a single year to unfold."

That may possibly be the rate NOW, but do you know what the rate was just after the flood? Do you? No... you do not. This again is uniformitarianism and assumptions being made to extrapolate a past and a timeline that was never observed.

Repeating yourself missing the mark still does not hit the mark Komatiite. The past, the present, and future are God's story to tell, not you. For you, story time is over.

Well, There are few things to make note of.

Firstly, you cant have glaciers forming during a flood in which rocks are simultaneously being metamorphosed.

Unless God made super cold temperatures in an isolated area, sub zero, while then making 500 degree temperatures in strata below at the same time. That doesnt really make any sense.


The burrows...we know about animals and how they make burrows. And we know that these things take time...right? How long would it take an armadillow to dig a 100 foot deep tunnel? Realistically, it would take some time. So, these animals werent being affected by the flood. If they were in the flood, they would have been drowned of course.

But as we can see, they are independently doing things at different periods of time.

You also cant have strata moving in two different directions at the same time.

So we would need two independent periods of time for this to unfold.

But also, you cant have ophiolites being fractured and faulted while also forming.

So you have the formation of the ophiolites, and the compression and the extension and the erosion of the ophiolites, before we even get to the animals digging their complex burrows in the oiligocene, and then later the deposition of pleistocene-pliocene strata, and then later more animals digging burrows and then later strata lithifying.





And all of this again is just the surface, this is a small fraction (maybe a few percent?) of the geologic column.

 

[Job 33:6]

So in order for, lets say our flood happened and the flood occurred over one year. Im pretty sure thats what young earthers believe, they believe the flood happened in a single year.

The structural deformation would have to be a product of the flood. It cant be post flood because we live in post flood times and we know that these things take millions of years.

They must be produced by the flood. But then, that automatically comes with questions of how animals are digging complex burrows and laying eggs and building nests, right in the middle of the flood.

In order for rock to move tens of kilometers, then to about face and reverse motion, theres no feasible way this could occur while simultaneously, animals were living on it. Imagine north america, ripping across the atlantic ocean at miles per hour. The physics behind such a thing would just annihilate the entire continent as north america collided with all the oceanic rock.

But the rock in many cases, such as the oligocene cyclothems, has not been melted or metamorphosed, so it has not been super heated, nor has it taken on exceptionally high pressures.

When things are heated, they melt and when theyre compressed, they get smashed.

So if many of these rocks arent melted and arent smashed on a molecular level...then it must be that, indeed these continental shifts, did not happen in a fast period of time.


Unless of course, God did cause compression and pushed continents tens of kilometers overnight, without the continents displaying evidence for such expedited motion.

Which again, is akin to playing the lord of the rings trilogy on 100,000x fast forward.

But again, imagine taking these events, and multiplying them in number by a million. Then you might have a better grasp on how many independent events you have to contest with.

 

[Job 33:6]

When i return, ill jump over a few periods and will dive into the cretaceous to add to our list.

 

[Job 33:6]

Oh and btw, ophiolites really are entire systems of rock. Its a particular pattern of rock that forms in particular places on earth. Its something we observe happening today, and these ophiolites exist, in late uplifted strata as discussed above. They consist of pillow basalt, which is aphanitic and flows slowly from magmatic chambers. Pillow basalts themselves are viscous in nature, all basaltic magma is viscous and slow flowing, like in the hawaiin islands. So to have bands of pillow basalts tens of kilometers wide, you need time for magma to slowly pour out and to cool and bubble. Thats what pillow basalt is. If it were chaotic and fast exploding, it would take the form of less viscous, explosive, felsic magma. Progressive dikes of salt in oceanic ridges are from seafloor spreading, which also only happens so fast.

If we sped up these processes, we would be altering the chemistry and physics of what makes them what they are. If you tore continental plates apart, hundreds of kilometers in the span of say...a year, you would have ultramafic mantle based rock, all over the place.

It would take thousands of years for wind to erode away stone such as the outcrops of ophiolites noted above. Unless flood waters were pure acid or something, in which case, we would still have issues understanding how animals were burrowing tunnels and living in the middle of oceans of acid.

 

[Job 33:6]

But anyway, aside from these above details that do not make any sense from a young earth perspective, and if we ignore these issues with physics and chemistry, we can just proceed along with other issues which i will pick up on later.

 

[Job 33:6]

Let me save you some time.

Another example:
"If you have 5 independent glaciations, one would anticipate this taking longer than a single year to unfold."

That may possibly be the rate NOW, but do you know what the rate was just after the flood? Do you? No... you do not. This again is uniformitarianism and assumptions being made to extrapolate a past and a timeline that was never observed.

Repeating yourself missing the mark still does not hit the mark Komatiite. The past, the present, and future are God's story to tell, not you. For you, story time is over.

Even if you think that glaciers would advance miles, hundreds of miles down from the arctic in a single day, and would scour across miles of land even in a single day...and then would melt completely away in a single day, over and over again...

Aside from it not making any sense at all with respect to animal life living and walking and burrowing in such a wild environment...

you would still have another million days of independent wild events to account for. Because the ice ages are superpositionally and temporally independent of events before them. And we are only looking at less than a single percent of the geologic column.


To suggest that all this happened in a matter of maybe a year, or even 100 years or a thousand years...you would have to suggest that these ice ages unfolded, literally in...seconds (including burrows and trace fossils forming and being made by life in between each layer).

Which of course is crazy.

 

[NobleMouse]

Well, There are few things to make note of.

Firstly, you cant have glaciers forming during a flood in which rocks are simultaneously being metamorphosed.

Assumption. See, right off the bat you start with assumptions. You and I do not know what the conditions were at the time of the flood, nor can refute God's word on the basis of things never observed.

Unless God made super cold temperatures in an isolated area, sub zero, while then making 500 degree temperatures in strata below at the same time. That doesnt really make any sense.

Assumption. God separated light from dark and made everything by His word. He is not limited to this nonsense of yours.

The burrows...we know about animals and how they make burrows. And we know that these things take time...right? How long would it take an armadillow to dig a 100 foot deep tunnel? Realistically, it would take some time. So, these animals werent being affected by the flood. If they were in the flood, they would have been drowned of course.

Assumption. You don't know Armadillos were the only thing that contributed.

But as we can see, they are independently doing things at different periods of time.

Assumption, you do not know that the events had to be different time periods or by what extent they are different times. And stop double-posting the same pictures, you're wasting server space : )

You also cant have strata moving in two different directions at the same time.

So we would need two independent periods of time for this to unfold.

Assumption. You don't know that, you've just never observed that. And again, you do not know the timing.

But also, you cant have ophiolites being fractured and faulted while also forming.

Assumption.

So you have the formation of the ophiolites, and the compression and the extension and the erosion of the ophiolites, before we even get to the animals digging their complex burrows in the oiligocene, and then later the deposition of pleistocene-pliocene strata, and then later more animals digging burrows and then later strata lithifying.

Again, more assumptions.

And all of this again is just the surface, this is a small fraction (maybe a few percent?) of the geologic column.

Assumption. You assume God made Earth absent a geological column and that the entire column is the result of millions of years of sediments that have lithified. The only thing I see evidence from your posts is millions of layers of unverifiable assumptions.

 

[Job 33:6]

"Assumption. See, right off the bat you start with assumptions. You and I do not know what the conditions were at the time of the flood, nor can refute God's word on the basis of things never observed."

How is it an assumption to state that objects cannot be frozen and melted at the same time?

If this is really what you're willing to believe in order to maintain young earth beliefs, I think I'll pass.

 

[Job 33:6]

"Assumption. You don't know Armadillos were the only thing that contributed."

Do you think angels flew in from the sky to help animals dig their burrows faster?

I'm not sure if you saw the photographs but the burrows have claw marks and everything. So...

 

[Job 33:6]

"Assumption, you do not know that the events had to be different time periods"

They had to occur at different times.

Unless God instantaneously created everything in an instant. Which of course doesn't make sense.

If you have dinosaur nests for example in a lower layer and glacial deposits in a higher layer, you can't have dinosaurs making nests underground simultaneously as glaciers advance and form striations above.

Also, you can't have compressional forces and extensional forces applied on a single location at the same time. It logically doesn't make sense that an object could be pulled and pushed at the same time.

So yes, these events did occur at separate times, again, unless God instantaneously just created everything at once and simply made it look as if dinosaurs we're not making subterranean nests under glaciers.

 

[Job 33:6]

"Assumption, you do not know that the events had to be different time periods"

Another thing to note is that...if you have tracks of one species of animal in layer A, then below you have tracks of another species of animal in layer B,

Time must have passed for the first species of animal to have walked, and burrowed and made nests and to have lived...independently from layer B.

In order to walk, it requires that an animal have oxygen and it requires that the animal not be underground, to walk. So if we see tracks, this implies that both layers at some point in time, were exposed to the atmosphere where life can live and walk.

So, logically, the layers must be of different ages, if multiple layers have independent sets of trace fossils (tracks, burrows, nests etc)

For example, here are miocene tracks

Here are oligocene tracks

Pleistocene-pliocene burrows:

Miocene burrow:

------------------------------------------------



Now, an animal cant walk if its underground, so the oligocene and miocene tracks must have formed at different times.

Regarding the burrows, they exist in stratigraphically different layers. Both burrows have entrances which were at one time, exposed to the atmosphere. So if the entrance of one burrow is actually underneath the ground of and below the entrance of another...

then you know that the two burrows were made at different times by different animals.

The same goes with nests. If there is a nest 10 feet underground, and then another nest 30 feet underground, if the nests were made at grade where there are footprints where animals walked around, then you know that they existed at different times.

 

[The Barbarian]

Assumption. God separated light from dark and made everything by His word. He is not limited to this nonsense of yours.

And in the end, the YE creationist retreats to his bunker: "It was a (non-scriptural) miracle! So there!"

When one must gin up all sorts of new miracles to cover flaws in one's beliefs, then anything is possible.

 

[hiwaystar]

Why would we need to explain them at all? God can create whatever He wants! He made it seem as if dinosaurs existed...and He's not necessarily testing our faith. Maybe He intended dinosaur fossils as Easter eggs or something.

Look, if I carved bunnies on an ice cream cone, does that mean there used to be bunnies sitting in the cone? In the same way, just because God created cool-looking fossils underground doesn't mean living versions of those fossils existed.

 

[NobleMouse]

Even if you think that glaciers would advance miles, hundreds of miles down from the arctic in a single day, and would scour across miles of land even in a single day...and then would melt completely away in a single day, over and over again...

Aside from it not making any sense at all with respect to animal life living and walking and burrowing in such a wild environment...

you would still have another million days of independent wild events to account for. Because the ice ages are superpositionally and temporally independent of events before them. And we are only looking at less than a single percent of the geologic column.


To suggest that all this happened in a matter of maybe a year, or even 100 years or a thousand years...you would have to suggest that these ice ages unfolded, literally in...seconds (including burrows and trace fossils forming and being made by life in between each layer).

Which of course is crazy.

You continue to parrot your assumptions as if this somehow negates God's word. Sorry, you just don't have the omniscience to support the claims you are making. You are drawing conclusions without knowing all the facts - this by definition is called conjecture. Only God is omniscient, and He said He made all life within the span of 6 days and sent a flood that destroyed all flesh on the land.

 

[The Barbarian]

You continue to parrot your assumptions as if this somehow negates God's word.

He's showing you evidence. And your word is not God's word.

And He never said he destroyed all living things on Earth. He said it was on "the land." (eretz)

 

[trophy33]

You continue to parrot your assumptions as if this somehow negates God's word. Sorry, you just don't have the omniscience to support the claims you are making. You are drawing conclusions without knowing all the facts - this by definition is called conjecture. Only God is omniscient, and He said He made all life within the span of 6 days and sent a flood that destroyed all flesh on the land.

Technically, Moses said it, somebody wrote it down and many people in various generations copied it, modified it, added to it, removed from it.

And Moses was not a 21st century scientist, therefore he did not use our language.

 

[NobleMouse]

Technically, Moses said it, somebody wrote it down and many people in various generations copied it, modified it, added to it, removed from it.

And Moses was not a 21st century scientist, therefore he did not use our language.

No, technically God said it and wrote it onto the tablets upon which the 10 commandments were first written (by the finger of God) - go look it up in Exodus. It's easy --> Exodus 20:8-11.

 

[trophy33]

No, technically God said it and wrote it onto the tablets upon which the 10 commandments were first written (by the finger of God) - go look it up in Exodus. It's easy --> Exodus 20:8-11.

Yeah, 10 commandments. Its like 0,01% of Moses' writings. And these tablets were destroyed. Its not your modern Bible print.

 

[NobleMouse]

Yeah, 10 commandments. Its like 0,01% of Moses' writings. And these tablets were destroyed. Its not your modern Bible print.

Can you substantiate how the 0.01% (0.0001) is calculated? I think it's just more conjecture in a strained effort to support this ideation that the Bible is wrong and scientists are right, but will await your response. After the first tablets were destroyed, Moses went back up and spoke with God and God told Moses the words to etch into tablets the 2nd time (Exodus 34:27-28). Further, there are all the references to the people, places, and events in Genesis made throughout the Bible and none of them portray this narrative as symbolic, but always as factual, historical events and real people. It feels like you're making these arguments, but then not giving thought as to the ramifications as to how this destroys the rest of scripture that builds upon Genesis as the basis for it's truth.

Exodus was written in Hebrew and there are direct translations from the original Hebrew to english (this is not the nonsensical argument of a copy of a copy of a copy... = current print is wrong). Yom = day and in Hebrew culture, holidays such as Yom Kippur are celebrated from the evening of day 1 to the evening of day 2 (a 24-hr period of time).

You can go here to see the interlinear translation from Hebrew to English:
Exodus 20 Interlinear Bible

The text states, not in poetic/allegorical form but in narrative, 6 days and resting on 7th in Hebrew and in English. Yom means day and was/is still recognized as a 24-hr period of time. The command to observe the Sabbath could not have been followed if the Hebrews had no idea how long a 'yom' was, if it had been some arbitrary period of time. Think it through.

 

[trophy33]

Can you substantiate how the 0.01% (0.0001) is calculated? I think it's just more conjecture in a strained effort to support this ideation that the Bible is wrong and scientists are right, but will await your response. After the first tablets were destroyed, Moses went back up and spoke with God and God told Moses the words to etch into tablets the 2nd time (Exodus 34:27-28). Further, there are all the references to the people, places, and events in Genesis made throughout the Bible and none of them portray this narrative as symbolic, but always as factual, historical events and real people. It feels like you're making these arguments, but then not giving thought as to the ramifications as to how this destroys the rest of scripture that builds upon Genesis as the basis for it's truth.

Exodus was written in Hebrew and there are direct translations from the original Hebrew to english (this is not the nonsensical argument of a copy of a copy of a copy... = current print is wrong). Yom = day and in Hebrew culture, holidays such as Yom Kippur are celebrated from the evening of day 1 to the evening of day 2 (a 24-hr period of time).

You can go here to see the interlinear translation from Hebrew to English:
Exodus 20 Interlinear Bible

The text states, not in poetic/allegorical form but in narrative, 6 days and resting on 7th in Hebrew and in English. Yom means day and was/is still recognized as a 24-hr period of time. The command to observe the Sabbath could not have been followed if the Hebrews had no idea how long a 'yom' was, if it had been some arbitrary period of time. Think it through.

My point is twofold:
1. The Bible was not given word for word in the same form you have in your Bible today.
2. Your way of thinking (a global planetary perspective with continents and oceans) does not correspond with ancient way of thinking.

---
And another minor point - not everything Moses said was dictated by God. And not everything what is in "Books of Moses" is written by Moses.