How do we sort out different intepretations, and seeming contradictions?

[Tutorman]

So, if someone is dying and cannot be baptized he is going to Hell?

Of course not. The thief on cross was baptized with the baptism of desire just as a person who convert and was dying and could not be water baptized.

 

[timothyu]

baptized with the baptism of desire

Never got that memo

 

[kcnalp]

Of course not. The thief on cross was baptized with the baptism of desire just as a person who convert and was dying and could not be water baptized.

The baptism of desire? I don't remember seeing that one in the Bible.

 

[kcnalp]

Do you not have faith in God?

2 Peter 3:9
The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

Also, if we are going to play the "what if" game, then let me throw this thought back at you for consideration.

What if someone dies before they can repent? Luke 13:3

What if someone dies before they can confess? Matthew 10:32-33; Acts 8:36-39

What if someone dies before they can believe? Hebrews 11:6

What if someone dies before they get the chance to hear the word? Romans 10:17

We need to get out of the whole "what if" shenanigans because those don't work here.

If someone is dying and cannot be baptized in water he can't be saved?

Romans 10:9-10 If you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved.
10 For with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

 

[Acts2:38]

If someone is dying and cannot be baptized in water he can't be saved?

Romans 10:9-10 If you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved.
10 For with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

Your just not getting it are you?

If someone gets killed, or dies, before they can confess, can they be saved? This was my question in response to your question. I gave other questions too in response. You have not answered them. So before you continue your same question in which I responded to, it would be proper (and dialog would dictate in order to proceed further) for you to answer me back. Not with the same question that I answered already.

However, for the sake of saving time before waiting for you to respond to my previous questions, I will proceed with some things for you to consider. Please still answer my questions (I answered your first post question with a few questions, in which you should have been able to draw a conclusion. Please do not continue the same question I answered already)

Do you not have faith in God?

2 Peter 3:9
The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

Also, if we are going to play the "what if" game, then let me throw this thought back at you for consideration.

What if someone dies before they can repent? Luke 13:3

What if someone dies before they can confess? Matthew 10:32-33; Acts 8:36-39

What if someone dies before they can believe? Hebrews 11:6

What if someone dies before they get the chance to hear the word? Romans 10:17

We need to get out of the whole "what if" shenanigans because those don't work here.

I see your scripture, I understand it. However, scripture has given us many such verses with different requirements that we need to do. So, when you look at ALL of them as a whole, you need to do ALL of them.

Let me give you some scripture to contemplate with some questions.

1-Can you receive the Holy Ghost AND remission of sins, without baptism? Acts 2:38

2-Can you enter the kingdom without baptism? John 3:3 and 5

3-Can you obey the gospel of which the meaning is stated in 1 Corinthians 15:1-5, Death, Burial, and Resurrection, like Romans 6:1-5 tells us to do, without baptism?

4-Can you put on Christ, without baptism? Galatians 3:27

5-Can you receive any spiritual blessings (including prayer) if you do not put on Christ? Combine Galatians 3:27 with Ephesians 1:3

6-Did you forget that Mark 16:16 states," He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned."? (Puts a stumbling block on your Romans 10:9-10 with what you believe doesnt it?)

7-Did you not know that Peter explains baptism saves "eight souls saved by water...even now baptism saves you...not the removal of filth, but a good conscience toward God"? 1 Peter 3:20-21

8-Did you know, that when you inherently preach Christ, you also teach that baptism is necessary? Ethiopian eunuch Acts 8:27-39
*Ethiopian-"look see, here is water, what hinders me?"
*Philip- "if you believe then you may"
*Ethiopian confesses he believes
*Philip brings Ethiopian into the water
*Ethiopian is baptized
*Ethiopians rejoices

9-Did you know Paul didn't begin his ministry professing Christ until he was baptized? Acts 22:16

10-Did you know, Cornelius still was baptized in order to enter the kingdom? Acts 10:47 (Cornelius received special gifts before baptism with the Holy Spirit, but he still needed to be baptized to obey the scriptures and teachings. Cornelius received the Holy Spirit to show the Jews, that Gentiles are to be included too see Acts 11 not because he was saved before baptism like many falsely believe)

11-How does one become a disciple? Matthew 28:19-20
"Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost: (Ethiopian eunuch situation ring a bell here for anyone?)

Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you always, even unto the end of the world. Amen."

I better stop here as I could go on and on with these questions about baptism's necessity for salvation.

I really do hope you answer these honestly with yourself. Even if you don't post them, I hope you answer them to yourself at least.

 

[Acts2:38]

Of course not. The thief on cross was baptized with the baptism of desire just as a person who convert and was dying and could not be water baptized.

Consider this for a moment:

Christs death would bring the new covenant right?

Was Christ dead when he was talking to the thief, or was he still alive?

And if Christ was still alive, talking to the thief, then was there a new covenant BEFORE Christ died or after?

Or, because Christ was STILL ALIVE, and he did NOT die yet to start the new covenant, that maybe they were still under the old laws/covenant?

Friend, Christ didnt die yet when he was talking to the thief and therefore the new covenant had not begun.

In conclusion, Christ had the power to forgive the thief under OLD TESTAMENT laws/covenant. That is why the thief didnt need to be baptized.

After Christs death, burial, and resurrection 1 Corinthians 15:1-5, now you need to be baptized Romans 6:1-5, to obtain forgiveness of sins and the Holy Spirit Acts 2:38, to put on Christ Galatians 3:27, into water 1 Peter 3:20-21, like the Ethiopian eunuch Acts 8:36-39.

 

[kcnalp]

Consider this for a moment:

Christs death would bring the new covenant right?

Was Christ dead when he was talking to the thief, or was he still alive?

And if Christ was still alive, talking to the thief, then was there a new covenant BEFORE Christ died or after?

Or, because Christ was STILL ALIVE, and he did NOT die yet to start the new covenant, that maybe they were still under the old laws/covenant?

Friend, Christ didnt die yet when he was talking to the thief and therefore the new covenant had not begun.

In conclusion, Christ had the power to forgive the thief under OLD TESTAMENT laws/covenant. That is why the thief didnt need to be baptized.

After Christs death, burial, and resurrection 1 Corinthians 15:1-5, now you need to be baptized Romans 6:1-5, to obtain forgiveness of sins and the Holy Spirit Acts 2:38, to put on Christ Galatians 3:27, into water 1 Peter 3:20-21, like the Ethiopian eunuch Acts 8:36-39.

It is the Blood of Jesus that cleanses us from our sins. Not water baptism. His Blood was already shed when He was speaking to the thief on the cross.

1 John 1:7-9
7 But if we walk in the light as He is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus Christ His Son cleanses us from all sin.
...
9 If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

 

[kcnalp]

6-Did you forget that Mark 16:16 states," He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned."?

And that would have been the perfect time to say "he that is not baptized shall be damned". He didn't.

 

[Acts2:38]

It is the Blood of Jesus that cleanses us from our sins. Not water baptism. His Blood was already shed when He was speaking to the thief on the cross.

You don't get what 1 Peter 3:21 says do you?

The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ

It's not the water, and the water alone, that saves you. It is the obedience to His commands from what scripture has told us to do.

Acts 2:38
Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

What don't you understand about that verse?

Acts 2:41
Then they that gladly received his word were baptized: and the same day there were added unto them about three thousand souls.

You still have yet to answer my questions. I find that a bit disappointing, because you have no clue how to still believe your doctrine and refute the scriptures given to you.

How do you put on Christ? Galatians 3:27

How do you enter the kingdom? John 3:3 and 5

How do you receive remission of sins and receive the holy spirit? Acts 2:38

How do you get around verses like Romans 6:1-5 combine with 1 Corinthians 15:1-5

You have no answer for Mark 16:16? believe AND be baptized you will be saved

How do you make a disciple? Matthew 28:19-20

If you cannot confront these verses, and you just want to keep spinning out, then I can have nothing more to say.

1 John 1:7-9
7 But if we walk in the light as He is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus Christ His Son cleanses us from all sin.
...
9 If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

Yea, for people who are Christians already. Not for those who are outside of Christ.

 

[Acts2:38]

And that would have been the perfect time to say "he that is not baptized shall be damned". He didn't.

Obviously if you do not believe, you wont seek baptism. Sorry, you didnt prove anything.

 

[kcnalp]

Obviously if you do not believe, you wont seek baptism. Sorry, you didnt prove anything.

I've been baptized in Jesus' Name as the Apostles did. Not to be saved, but to obey God. How about you?

 

[kcnalp]

You don't get what 1 Peter 3:21 says do you?

The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ

It's not the water, and the water alone, that saves you. It is the obedience to His commands from what scripture has told us to do.

Acts 2:38
Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

What don't you understand about that verse?

Acts 2:41
Then they that gladly received his word were baptized: and the same day there were added unto them about three thousand souls.

You still have yet to answer my questions. I find that a bit disappointing, because you have no clue how to still believe your doctrine and refute the scriptures given to you.

How do you put on Christ? Galatians 3:27

How do you enter the kingdom? John 3:3 and 5

How do you receive remission of sins and receive the holy spirit? Acts 2:38

How do you get around verses like Romans 6:1-5 combine with 1 Corinthians 15:1-5

You have no answer for Mark 16:16? believe AND be baptized you will be saved

How do you make a disciple? Matthew 28:19-20

If you cannot confront these verses, and you just want to keep spinning out, then I can have nothing more to say.





Yea, for people who are Christians already. Not for those who are outside of Christ.

 

[kcnalp]

You don't get what 1 Peter 3:21 says do you?

The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ

It's not the water, and the water alone, that saves you. It is the obedience to His commands from what scripture has told us to do.

Acts 2:38
Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

What don't you understand about that verse?

Acts 2:41
Then they that gladly received his word were baptized: and the same day there were added unto them about three thousand souls.

You still have yet to answer my questions. I find that a bit disappointing, because you have no clue how to still believe your doctrine and refute the scriptures given to you.

How do you put on Christ? Galatians 3:27

How do you enter the kingdom? John 3:3 and 5

How do you receive remission of sins and receive the holy spirit? Acts 2:38

How do you get around verses like Romans 6:1-5 combine with 1 Corinthians 15:1-5

You have no answer for Mark 16:16? believe AND be baptized you will be saved

How do you make a disciple? Matthew 28:19-20

If you cannot confront these verses, and you just want to keep spinning out, then I can have nothing more to say.





Yea, for people who are Christians already. Not for those who are outside of Christ.

You didn't answer my simple question.

 

[Andrew Cheng]

Hi. I've never had any formal Bible study training... and that's probably part of the problem. I was raised Southern Baptist, but am now getting myself all twisted in knots after reading Church history and some of the Church Fathers and trying to read Scripture with an open mind...

I do believe that the Bible is supposed to be our ultimate authority, but I'm really getting frustrated at all the places where the right way to understand doctrine doesn't seem clear. I know what Baptists have traditionally taught and believed -- but the early Church Fathers seem in many places to teach something different, and I'm finding the Bible seems to teach something different -- that is, unless I begin with Baptist assumptions.

It seems like everybody has to begin with a certain set of assumptions -- or else there's no way to make sense of all this at all. For an example of just one knot I am twisting myself in, one I was thinking about earlier today -- What is actually required for salvation? Rather than being simple and clear like I've always been told this is supposed to be, I find that the Bible isn't very clear at all -- unless I begin from a certain assumption (sola fide for example) and subject everything else I read to that.

• Paul talks about being "saved by grace through faith" and "not a result of works" in Ephesians 2:8-10. Protestants take this to be a statement of sola fide, justification by faith alone.
  
• James says "a person is justified by works and not by faith alone" (James 2:24). And yes I know how Protestants usually explicate this in light of Paul -- but why do we prioritize Paul over James? How is that decision made?
• Jesus makes statements that seem to pretty clearly state there are things we have to do (works?) in order to be saved. For example, He says "unless one is both of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God" (John 3:5), traditionally understood to refer to baptism; He says "unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you have no life in you" (John 6:53), traditionally held to refer to the Lord's Supper. And yes, Baptists say neither one refers to either, but they still both apparently refer to something we have to do.
• Jesus also gives parables of the Judgment indicating we will be judged according to our works (Matt 25:31-46). Paul also says pretty plainly that God "will render to each one according to his works" (Roman 2:6) -- shortly before the passages where Protestants find the boldest proclamations of sola fide. How does that square?

And I could go on. There are other passages that don't seem to line up with the rest of these. And I'm just making myself miserable trying to figure out how all this sorts out. People tell me in sola fide threads to "use Scripture to interpret Scripture" -- but I don't see how that works at all, when these Scriptures appear to be saying completely different things. It feels like trying to solve a mathematical proof -- I feel like everything should make sense, if only I know the theorem to start with. But I feel like, in my mind, I have no idea where to begin... People tell me to keep studying, that if I study more, it will all begin to make sense... but it feels like the more I study, the less anything makes sense.

And yes I know that the Catholic Church has a magisterium that "fixes everything"! But is that the only answer? I know that the Church Fathers give guidance in how they, the Early Church, understood things -- and that helps a lot. But should I prioritize their interpretations? How do Protestants make it work at all?

God's intention was never for us to be confused about His Word. It's the one thing that He uses for us to connect with Him. But even looking historically in the Bible, people were adding and subtracting to His Word, hence how we have all sorts of interpretations, seeming contradictions, and misunderstandings even today (Hosea 4:6). As His people, we have the choice to see the Bible as our foundation and standard, see the entire Scripture as God-breathed and His story (2 Timothy 3:16, John 1:1), and have the hungry heart to receive His Word and His Word only (Matthew 5:6). When the apostles preached the gospel, they didn't add to their own thinking/interpretation (2 Peter 1:19-21, Galatians 1:10-12). Hope that helps! If you're interested in studying and talking more, please feel free to message me.

 

[Acts2:38]

You didn't answer my simple question.

I did, and I told you I did. I answered you with a question. Actually, lots of questions. And on top of that I provided scripture, of which you have been found lacking.

 

[Acts2:38]

I've been baptized in Jesus' Name as the Apostles did. Not to be saved, but to obey God. How about you?

So you have not been baptized to be saved, but to obey God?

Can you elaborate for me please? Because that statement is pretty contradicting.

I got baptized because it is the only way I can obtain remission for sins. Acts 2:38

It was the only way to receive the Holy Spirit. Acts 2:38

Being baptized is the only way I can put on Christ. Galatians 3:27

It is the only way you can be "...buried with Him...in likeness of death...". Romans 6:3-4

It is the only way I can obtain spiritual blessings such as prayer. Combine Galatians 3:27 with Ephesians 1:3

Did you know, the gospel is defined here - 1 Corinthians 15:1-5?

So if you want to obey the gospel, you would need to do what Romans 6:1-5 states. That is what I did.

I did what Paul did Acts 22:16. I did what the Ethiopian eunuch did Acts 8:27-39. I did what the Jews did in Acts 2.

Not only because it saves me Mark 16:16; 1 Peter 3:20-21, but because it is the only way to enter the kingdom John 3:3 and 5, and obey the gospel 1 Corinthians 15:1-5/Romans 6:1-5

 

[kcnalp]

Can you elaborate for me please? Because that statement is pretty contradicting.

I got baptized because it is the only way I can obtain remission for sins. Acts 2:38

Do you reject Jesus' Blood atonement for our sins?

Lev 17:11 It is the blood that makes atonement for the soul.

 

[kcnalp]

I did, and I told you I did. I answered you with a question. Actually, lots of questions. And on top of that I provided scripture, of which you have been found lacking.

Fact is, the thief was not baptized but he was saved.

 

[rjs330]

The thief on the cross was under the OT mosaic law, not the NT Covenant. Christ wasn't dead yet for the NT covenant to begin.

So if I get shot and am dying, but the Christian EMS person leads me to Christ before I die I will not be saved because I wasn't baptized?

 

[Acts2:38]

Do you reject Jesus' Blood atonement for our sins?

Lev 17:11 It is the blood that makes atonement for the soul.

I thought my last post put it pretty clear.

Why did you use Lev? We are NOW under a new and better covenant. I would have referred people to the book of Hebrews. The blood of bulls and goats don't cut it.

Fact is, the thief was not baptized but he was saved.

Yes, that is fact, however your missing ANOTHER FACT to this puzzle. The thief and Christ (because face it folks, Jesus wasnt dead yet for there to be a new covenant) they were under the OLD TESTAMENT LAWS.

How are you not getting this? I don't know how much more I can break that down for you.

Since you pulled Leviticus in the other posting, you should know that the high priest was able to have the sins of the nation forgiven. Thats right! He was able to go to God for the nation and be forgiven, all of them, by the high priest doing what he was suppose to do yearly.

So, with that in mind, who do you think Jesus was that he couldn't just forgive the thief, under the old covenant, and save him?

I like how you avoid virtually ALL of the scripture I gave several times. Since you are not going to answer them, and repeatedly ask the same things over and over regardless that they get answered, I believe we can be done now. Maybe next time when you are willing to have the dialog actually progress further than your first question, then we can have a go at it again.

Take care, with love, best regards!