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TimRout

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Can anything take place in this universe beyond the scope of God's sovereign control?
Of course it can. Do you think it was the sovereign will of Yahweh for man to sin? Permissive will versus perfect will. He gave man free will to choose. Man chooses his own way over God's perfect will for him. Sin enters the world. The rest is history.
Of course Adam's fall is in accord with God's decretive will! Are you suggesting that the occurrence of sin is not a part of God's plan? What then do you make of Joseph's brothers [Gen. 45:5-8; 50:20], the Assyrian invasion of Israel [Is. 10:5-7], or Jesus' crucifixion [Ac. 2:22-23]? Is not the Bible explicit that God CAUSES all things to work together for good to them that love Him and are CALLED according to His PURPOSE [Ro. 8:28]? How can God have a purpose for all things if He is not in control of all things?

Mindful of secondary means, I would suggest that God is indeed in control of all things, including evil. The very notion of sovereignty demands no less.
 
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Andy S. Wright

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Can anything take place in this universe beyond the scope of God's sovereign control?Of course Adam's fall is in accord with God's decretive will! Are you suggesting that the occurrence of sin is not a part of God's plan? What then do you make of Joseph's brothers [Gen. 45:5-8; 50:20], the Assyrian invasion of Israel [Is. 10:5-7], or Jesus' crucifixion [Ac. 2:22-23]? Is not the Bible explicit that God CAUSES all things to work together for good to them that love Him and are CALLED according to His PURPOSE [Ro. 8:28]? How can God have a purpose for all things if He is not in control of all things?

Mindful of secondary means, I would suggest that God is indeed in control of all things, including evil. The very notion of sovereignty demands no less.


...It's been a crazy weekend and I've been pondering this topic since you brought it up. In fact, it's funny you bring this topic up as this has been one of the major questions I've wrestled with over the last 25 years.

I've written about 5 different responses to your questions and they've all ended up longer than most novels. There is no simple answer to this, at least from my admittedly flawed perspective.

As I see it, the sovereignty of God covers two basic levels: individual and universal. As far as the universal plans of God are concerned, yes, God's ultimate plan will be realized in His time. By that reckoning, sin's admission into the human equation, while probably not his first choice for his kids, did fall into the plan of God before the foundation of the world.

On the individual level, I will simply say that if, by the definition you've given, the sovereignty of God means He is in control, either passively or agressively, of every single moment of every single day, 24/7/365, with every single event and circumstance, no matter how infinitesimally small, throughout human history since the beginning of time working out to His perfect plan and purpose then he is either a schizophrenic lunatic or a sadistic liar because he certainly isn't "good".

Of all the scriptures I could produce to show God's will NOT being done on earth as it is in heaven, I believe 2 Peter 3:9 pretty much sums it all up. The clearly expressed sovereign will of God for all of humanity that will NEVER be realized. Ever. Again, I could elaborate but I think it is clear that God's promise in Romans 8:28 is a conditional one; conditions that are never met by the majority of humanity, including faithful church attendees.

Therefore, I resubmit my original premise that for a vast majority of churches, Christ is not the head and only when he is "restored" by a repentant body willing to deny themselves, take up their crosses and follow Him will we see the type of reformation within the Body of Christ that will really make an impact on the world around us.

Therefore, that won't happen until he returns for His bride and establishes his physical kingdom on the earth.
 
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TimRout

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...It's been a crazy weekend and I've been pondering this topic since you brought it up. In fact, it's funny you bring this topic up as this has been one of the major questions I've wrestled with over the last 25 years.
You are I are about the same age. I can't blame you for pondering this one for so many years. It took me many years to come to my present position on sovereign grace. Blessings in the journey. :)
I've written about 5 different responses to your questions and they've all ended up longer than most novels. There is no simple answer to this, at least from my admittedly flawed perspective.
I'll second that, brother! Our answers are of necessity complex and I'm grateful you're willing to take the time to work through the issues with care. After all, each of us bears an imperfect/incomplete theology in some respect.
As I see it, the sovereignty of God covers two basic levels: individual and universal. As far as the universal plans of God are concerned, yes, God's ultimate plan will be realized in His time. By that reckoning, sin's admission into the human equation, while probably not his first choice for his kids, did fall into the plan of God before the foundation of the world.
In differentiating the "individual will" from the "universal will", I gather you're making room for human libertarian freedom. What biblical evidence would you offer in support of this assertion?
On the individual level, I will simply say that if, by the definition you've given, the sovereignty of God means He is in control, either passively or agressively, of every single moment of every single day, 24/7/365, with every single event and circumstance, no matter how infinitesimally small, throughout human history since the beginning of time working out to His perfect plan and purpose then he is either a schizophrenic lunatic or a sadistic liar because he certainly isn't "good".
Two questions:

Firstly, what do you make of the Scriptures I cited Gen. 45:5-8; Gen. 50:20; Is. 10:5-7; and Ac. 2:22-23? These support a compatiblist understanding of divine sovereignty and you didn't even touch them in your response. If you require exposition on these texts, I'd be happy to provide it.

Secondly, by what objective standard do you presume to judge the character of God, since it is also possible to conclude that a meticulously sovereign God may do with His creation as He pleases?
Of all the scriptures I could produce to show God's will NOT being done on earth as it is in heaven, I believe 2 Peter 3:9 pretty much sums it all up. The clearly expressed sovereign will of God for all of humanity that will NEVER be realized. Ever. Again, I could elaborate but I think it is clear that God's promise in Romans 8:28 is a conditional one; conditions that are never met by the majority of humanity, including faithful church attendees.
3Know this first of all, that in the last days mockers will come with their mocking, following after their own lusts, 4and saying, "Where is the promise of His coming? For ever since the fathers fell asleep, all continues just as it was from the beginning of creation."
5For when they maintain this, it escapes their notice that by the word of God the heavens existed long ago and the earth was formed out of water and by water,
6through which the world at that time was destroyed, being flooded with water.
7But by His word the present heavens and earth are being reserved for fire, kept for the day of judgment and destruction of ungodly men.
8But do not let this one fact escape your notice, beloved, that with the Lord one day is like a thousand years, and a thousand years like one day.
9The Lord is not slow about His promise, as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing for any to perish but for all to come to repentance. [2 Ptr. 3:3-9/NASB] Notice the clear distinction between reprobates (those kept for destruction), and the elect (the beloved). One group is described with words like "they" and "their". The other is described with words like "your" and "you". Thus Peter is NOT saying God wants to save everybody, but He's going to be very disappointed. Rather he is saying, God desires to save every one of His elect, and He will fully succeed in due time. I would challenge your application of this text.


28And we know that God causes all things to work together for good to those who love God, to those who are called according to His purpose.
29For those whom He foreknew, He also predestined to become conformed to the image of His Son, so that He would be the firstborn among many brethren;
30and these whom He predestined, He also called; and these whom He called, He also justified; and these whom He justified, He also glorified. [Ro. 8:28-30/NASB]Where is the condition of which you speak? It seems the promises of God are accomplished by God alone from beginning to end. Indeed, every verb herein is an active verb, and every verb describes an action performed by God.
Therefore, I resubmit my original premise that for a vast majority of churches, Christ is not the head and only when he is "restored" by a repentant body willing to deny themselves, take up their crosses and follow Him will we see the type of reformation within the Body of Christ that will really make an impact on the world around us.
Therefore, that won't happen until he returns for His bride and establishes his physical kingdom on the earth.
I'm sorry Andy, but it seems you have a ways to go in making your case for:

a) The libertarian freedom of human will.
b) The self-limitation of divine sovereignty.

I'll stop here until you've had time to consider your response.
 
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