How do we make sustainable environments? Is "Evolution" always the most applicable?

OldWiseGuy · May 10, 2020

Warden_of_the_Storm said:
Science is science. It's neither good nor bad. It's only when it becomes applied that you can attach a morality to it. And it's 99 times out of 100 applied by government.

The government generally acts on the advice of the scientists. If the scientists know that their advice is faulty they must bear some if not all of the responsibility.
Government, in the form of public money, is the only way the plans of the scientists can be carried out. Note I said plans. Government cannot make detailed plans, only the scientists can do that. Therefore they are in it up to their necks.

Speedwell · May 10, 2020

OldWiseGuy said:
Local governments generally follow the recommendations of the scientists they consult with. Scientists aren't free of personal agendas, and often suggest their own pet ideas as solutions to problems, to be carried out at taxpayers expense, and with no conditions or liabilities for the scientists. Pretty smart them scientists.

In other words, blaming scientists for the condition of your lakes is purely magical thinking on your part.

Warden_of_the_Storm · May 10, 2020

OldWiseGuy said:
The government generally acts on the advice of the scientists. If the scientists know that their advice is faulty they must bear some if not all of the responsibility.

Wow. You're really hellbent on just solely blaming scientists.
I've got a lance and a donkey I can sell you, Mr Quixote.

OldWiseGuy · May 10, 2020

Speedwell said:
In other words, blaming scientists for the condition of your lakes is purely magical thinking on your part.

Actually 2+2 is still 4.

OldWiseGuy · May 10, 2020

Warden_of_the_Storm said:
Wow. You're really hellbent on just solely blaming scientists.
I've got a lance and a donkey I can sell you, Mr Quixote.

Not really. Government is to blame as well. But seeing as how government is helpless regarding knowledge of the subject they are at the mercy of the scientists. In fact I could find some aging scientists that have giving bad advice to a long succession of clueless legislators, mayors, and County Executives, regarding the lakes.

Warden_of_the_Storm · May 10, 2020

OldWiseGuy said:
Not really. Government is to blame as well. But seeing as how government is helpless regarding knowledge of the subject they are at the mercy of the scientists.

Nah.

OldWiseGuy · May 10, 2020

Warden_of_the_Storm said:
Nah.

Careful, you'll strain your wrist with all that waving.

Warden_of_the_Storm · May 10, 2020

OldWiseGuy said:
Careful, you'll strain your wrist with all that waving.

Could say the same about your ankles with all that running after scape goats you do.
To be honest, I'm getting tired of seeing your comments, so I'll add you to my ignore list.

Hans Blaster · May 10, 2020

OldWiseGuy said:
University of Wisconsin, Madison.
Wisconsin DNR.
Lake Mendota.

Thanks for the specificity. It helps in my Googling to get a better idea what you are talking about. It's good to know that all of us scientists aren't on your blame list.

OK, Lake Mendota, seems like a nice looking lake. I can see why you'd want to keep it in good condition.

The university seems rather proud of it's place on the shore of the lake, so I doubt UW-Madison as a whole wants to selfishly allow the lake to go into a bad state. So it must be a sub-set of scientists there...

OK, they have a whole center (Home) for studying lakes, located right on the lake shore. It seems they've been studying Lake Mendota for over 100 years. Some links refer to it as the "most studied lake in the world". Methinks I'm getting closer...

Now I'm at a loss for why you think the UW scientists think are messing up the lake, but I can think of a few possibilities:

* They've recommended a specific plan of management that you think is harming the lake
* They don't recommend, or recommend against, some course of action you think would fix the lake
* You think they are deliberately not taking action (or recommending action) because they really like a lake full of algae, `cause you know there aren't any other lakes with enough algae they could study.

OldWiseGuy · May 10, 2020

Warden_of_the_Storm said:
Could say the same about your ankles with all that running after scape goats you do.
To be honest, I'm getting tired of seeing your comments, so I'll add you to my ignore list.

Bye.

OldWiseGuy · May 10, 2020

Hans Blaster said:
Thanks for the specificity. It helps in my Googling to get a better idea what you are talking about. It's good to know that all of us scientists aren't on your blame list.

OK, Lake Mendota, seems like a nice looking lake. I can see why you'd want to keep it in good condition.

The university seems rather proud of it's place on the shore of the lake, so I doubt UW-Madison as a whole wants to selfishly allow the lake to go into a bad state. So it must be a sub-set of scientists there...

OK, they have a whole center (Home) for studying lakes, located right on the lake shore. It seems they've been studying Lake Mendota for over 100 years. Some links refer to it as the "most studied lake in the world". Methinks I'm getting closer...

Now I'm at a loss for why you think the UW scientists think are messing up the lake, but I can think of a few possibilities:

* They've recommended a specific plan of management that you think is harming the lake
* They don't recommend, or recommend against, some course of action you think would fix the lake
* You think they are deliberately not taking action (or recommending action) because they really like a lake full of algae, `cause you know there aren't any other lakes with enough algae they could study.

I'm glad you are doing your homework. Also check out Lake Wingra. The UW also has a lab on it's shore. It is also a mess. They are studying it to observe "how a lake dies" due to hyper-eutrophic conditions. A citizens group, The Friends of Lake Wingra, are constrained to working in the watershed (as are all other citizen groups). They confided to me that they also would like the lake weeds cut and the carp removed but have met "roadblocks" in that effort. I mock them (in a friendly way) that with them for "friends" Lake Wingra doesn't need enemies (they and other such groups suck all the oxygen out of the room). I have been invited to speak to their group but have declined, as they have no influence over the condition of the lake itself.

Check out the actual management of Lake Mendota by both the DNR and one of the science departments of the UW ( Limnology, Professor Steve Carpenter). The lake is being managed for the production of "trophy northern pike", a species that benefits from a weedy environment. The DNR has authority over inland waters and has the special interest of providing fishing opportunities, often at the expense of most other recreational activities, and of course the general enjoyment of a clean lake. They also work closely with the UW science departments.

Our lakes are beautiful, until they warm up and the invasive weeds, mainly Eurasian Watermilfoil, begin their seasonal take over. This is a national problem, not just a local one here, although those in authority don't seem to think so.

Keep digging if you're interested. The story gets darker the more you learn.

Massive Blue-Green Algae Bloom Stretches Across Lake Mendota

Blue-Green Algae Blooms Frequent On Madison's Lakes This Summer

Madison closes four beaches for blue-green algae

We've had algae blooms on our lakes for as long as I can remember, which is common for 'drainage lakes' in agricultural areas, but nothing like we're seeing now.

About 30 years ago a visiting scientist (unconverted husband of church member) was invited to participate in a forum on the lakes. He told me that "everyone wanted authority, but no one wanted any accountability". That's about the way it is today. It's bad enough that most don't know what they are doing, but even worse if they do know what they are doing.

Ophiolite · May 11, 2020

OldWiseGuy said:
I'm glad you are doing your homework. Also check out Lake Wingra. The UW also has a lab on it's shore. It is also a mess. They are studying it to observe "how a lake dies" due to hyper-eutrophic conditions. A citizens group, The Friends of Lake Wingra, are constrained to working in the watershed (as are all other citizen groups). They confided to me that they also would like the lake weeds cut and the carp removed but have met "roadblocks" in that effort. I mock them (in a friendly way) that with them for "friends" Lake Wingra doesn't need enemies (they and other such groups suck all the oxygen out of the room). I have been invited to speak to their group but have declined, as they have no influence over the condition of the lake itself.

Check out the actual management of Lake Mendota by both the DNR and one of the science departments of the UW ( Limnology, Professor Steve Carpenter). The lake is being managed for the production of "trophy northern pike", a species that benefits from a weedy environment. The DNR has authority over inland waters and has the special interest of providing fishing opportunities, often at the expense of most other recreational activities, and of course the general enjoyment of a clean lake. They also work closely with the UW science departments.

Our lakes are beautiful, until they warm up and the invasive weeds, mainly Eurasian Watermilfoil, begin their seasonal take over. This is a national problem, not just a local one here, although those in authority don't seem to think so.

Keep digging if you're interested. The story gets darker the more you learn.

Massive Blue-Green Algae Bloom Stretches Across Lake Mendota

Blue-Green Algae Blooms Frequent On Madison's Lakes This Summer

Madison closes four beaches for blue-green algae

We've had algae blooms on our lakes for as long as I can remember, which is common for 'drainage lakes' in agricultural areas, but nothing like we're seeing now.

About 30 years ago a visiting scientist (unconverted husband of church member) was invited to participate in a forum on the lakes. He told me that "everyone wanted authority, but no one wanted any accountability". That's about the way it is today. It's bad enough that most don't know what they are doing, but even worse if they do know what they are doing.

Breaking news! Small town politics and small minded politicians can endanger your health and those of your lakes.

But I still don't see how a spirit-led solution is the answer, especially when its principal proponent sidesteps any accountability.

Tom 1 · May 11, 2020

Speedwell said:
In other words, blaming scientists for the condition of your lakes is purely magical thinking on your part.

Some of us like magical thinking.

AnotherAtheist · May 11, 2020

OldWiseGuy said:
The topic isn't evolution per se, but sustainable environments. My ideas, imo, trump everything coming from the scientific community. We must reduce populations, conserve resources, restore proper soil fertility and adopt sensible farming methods. Not find clever ways around these.

Yes, but you were saying that you would go up against evolutionists with your claims and beliefs. If you are doing so with statements which are not relevant at all, then that calls into question why you target 'evolutionists' as a body of people to discuss these issues with. And, you are attempting to portray 'evolutionists' as the opposition to sustainable environments. Which doesn't make sense.

You say that we need to do X not Y, but there is no reason why we cannot do both X and Y. Particularly when doing both X and Y will give us the best result in terms of the environment. And, it's scientists (who you portray as evolutioniists) who enable us to best do X and Y.

One basic logical error you make is that you blame scientists (who you say are often evolutionists) for the decisions of politicians and the corporate world, who are often on the right of the political spectrum, and often (in the US where I believe you are) very religious. Hence, anyone could easily portray the fight for a better, more sustainable, world as a battle of science versus religion. And since it's climate scientists who are cruicial and very active in the fight against climate change, and often the religious who are involve in climate denial.

Note that I'm not saying that the fight for a more sustainable environment is science versus religion. I'm just pointing out how your argument is so bad, that trying to claim sustainability for religion ('spirit led') simply makes you look silly.

OldWiseGuy said:
The government generally acts on the advice of the scientists. If the scientists know that their advice is faulty they must bear some if not all of the responsibility.
Government, in the form of public money, is the only way the plans of the scientists can be carried out. Note I said plans. Government cannot make detailed plans, only the scientists can do that. Therefore they are in it up to their necks.

Topics related to climate change and sustainability shows that the government does not. You are trying to assign a particular evil to 'scientists' and 'evolutionists' when the evidence of the real world shows that this is an invalid claim.

AnotherAtheist · May 11, 2020

Tom 1 said:
Some of us like magical thinking.

How well does it work in the real world?

Tom 1 · May 11, 2020

AnotherAtheist said:
How well does it work in the real world?

It makes life more interesting . Garcia Marquez and Murakami both said that ‘magical realism’ when applied to their work was a misnomer, something worth reflecting on. It also depends what you mean by real world - what people sometimes mean by that is the boundaried focus of what they believe to be real. If you mean what use it is in scientific practice then not much.

AnotherAtheist · May 11, 2020

Tom 1 said:
It makes life more interesting . Garcia Marquez and Murakami both said that ‘magical realism’ when applied to their work was a misnomer, something worth reflecting on. It also depends what you mean by real world - what people sometimes mean by that is the boundaried focus of what they believe to be real. If you mean what use it is in scientific practice then not much.

Magical Realism is style of fiction. Yes, it makes sense to use it there. I mistook your previous post as advocating it in understanding reality.

OldWiseGuy · May 11, 2020

Ophiolite said:
But I still don't see how a spirit-led solution is the answer, especially when its principal proponent sidesteps any accountability.

All spirit-led means is doing the right thing for the right reasons. In this case accountability translates to credit.

AnotherAtheist · May 11, 2020

OldWiseGuy said:
All spirit-led means is doing the right thing for the right reasons. In this case accountability translates to credit.

So, it has nothing to do with spirits then. At least, not the spirits related to religion as usually discussed in this forum.

OldWiseGuy · May 11, 2020

AnotherAtheist said:
How well does it work in the real world?

One example is that of drinking pure water for health. Scientists generally advise against it. I'm 80 and in very good health (considering) and I've drank pure water for nearly 50 years and have not suffered the ill effects that those scientists predict.

How do we make sustainable environments? Is "Evolution" always the most applicable?

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