• Starting today August 7th, 2024, in order to post in the Married Couples, Courting Couples, or Singles forums, you will not be allowed to post if you have your Marital status designated as private. Announcements will be made in the respective forums as well but please note that if yours is currently listed as Private, you will need to submit a ticket in the Support Area to have yours changed.

How do we make sustainable environments? Is "Evolution" always the most applicable?

Amittai

baggage apostate
Aug 20, 2006
1,426
491
✟48,680.00
Country
United Kingdom
Gender
Male
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Single

'Evolution' is a favourite word from the early 19th century (Hegel's period). People then didn't understand contingency and imagined physics and biology embody 'progress' rather than merely some sort of series of contingencies. They idealised, reified and nominalised. The sentimentalist Richard Dawkins still holds to 'progress', but Gould didn't. Is this unsuitedness of the term 'evolution' what you mean by 'destroying the letter'?
 
Upvote 0

AnotherAtheist

Gimmie dat ol' time physical evidence
Site Supporter
Aug 16, 2007
1,225
601
East Midlands
✟146,326.00
Faith
Atheist
Marital Status
In Relationship
Stability plus genetic drift, is what occurs when other contingency doesn't occur as well. Survival of the fittest is the result of organisms being already adapted or modified to be adapted, rather than its cause.

What point are you trying to make, and how does it relate to my post that you quoted?
 
Reactions: Hans Blaster
Upvote 0

Larniavc

"Encourage him to keep talking. He's hilarious."
Jul 14, 2015
14,606
8,930
52
✟381,949.00
Country
United Kingdom
Gender
Male
Faith
Atheist
Marital Status
Married
Politics
UK-Liberal-Democrats
None of that makes any sense. Are you okay?
 
Upvote 0

Ophiolite

Recalcitrant Procrastinating Ape
Nov 12, 2008
9,209
10,098
✟282,278.00
Country
United Kingdom
Faith
Agnostic
Marital Status
Private
Survival of the fittest to survive gives rise to the consequence of further adaptation vis a vis resizing and filling new niches in ecology.
That's illogical. In instances of long lasting stable niches (of which there are many in the geologic record) the fittest will have reached (practically) a peak level of fitness for that niche. Further adaptation will be both unnecessary and impossible.
If you are saying at that point new niches become available, then no. New niches become available when environments change, not when they are stable. So, your statement can be true some of the time, but not all the time.
 
Upvote 0

Warden_of_the_Storm

Well-Known Member
Oct 16, 2015
15,035
7,402
31
Wales
✟424,245.00
Country
United Kingdom
Gender
Male
Faith
Deist
Marital Status
Single
We were created perfect...then we 'evolved'.

I'm going to preempt the conversation that will take place:
Someone will ask OWG for evidence.
OWG will reply with 'the Bible'.
Someone will say that's not evidence.
OWG will go on another tangent about science and how he doesn't accept it because of a personal thing that has zero evidence or importance.
Then the thread will terribly spiral out of control again because of OldWiseGuy being OldWiseGuy.

It's oddly endearing in it's own way.
 
Upvote 0

OldWiseGuy

Wake me when it's soup.
Site Supporter
Feb 4, 2006
46,773
10,976
Wisconsin
Visit site
✟1,005,212.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Protestant
Marital Status
Single
Politics
US-Others

Note the sarcasm quotes around 'evolve'. What I meant was that, as Mark Twain quipped, "We were made a little lower than the angels, and have been getting lower ever since."
 
Upvote 0

Warden_of_the_Storm

Well-Known Member
Oct 16, 2015
15,035
7,402
31
Wales
✟424,245.00
Country
United Kingdom
Gender
Male
Faith
Deist
Marital Status
Single
Note the sarcasm quotes around 'evolve'. What I meant was that, as Mark Twain quipped, "We were made a little lower than the angels, and have been getting lower ever since."

Don't care. Your views on and knowledge of evolution are noted and are disregarded.
 
Reactions: Hans Blaster
Upvote 0

OldWiseGuy

Wake me when it's soup.
Site Supporter
Feb 4, 2006
46,773
10,976
Wisconsin
Visit site
✟1,005,212.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Protestant
Marital Status
Single
Politics
US-Others
Don't care. Your views on and knowledge of evolution are noted and are disregarded.

I'll put my creationist ideas about survival and progress of the human species up against any evolutionist, atheist, or scientist any day. Isn't that what it's all about?
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

Hans Blaster

Hood was a loser.
Mar 11, 2017
21,608
16,303
55
USA
✟410,169.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Atheist
Marital Status
Private

Are your posts written by an algorithm that strings together somewhat relevant phrases and words? 'Cause your posts don't make no sense. (I know it's a "gottservant" thread, but that's no excuse.)
 
Upvote 0

Amittai

baggage apostate
Aug 20, 2006
1,426
491
✟48,680.00
Country
United Kingdom
Gender
Male
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Single

Yes, new niches only happen when or if they happen (contingency), and there is a sort of macro-micro mutation process (among any species that happened to survive the disappearance of the old niches) to shape fitness to it and not beyond it.

The "application" of micromutation differs by kind of creature: for example moths change more easily from black to white to black again, than I expect tigers do.

Gould for one proposed what I would call macro-macro mutations prior to the Cambrian event (which is what he mainly wrote about). Thus it happened that some of the species that existed afterwards bore little resemblance to some that had existed long before. Then again Gould worked in a conventional diachronic scheme.

Some anti-evolutionists only concentrate on micro-evolution, and some evolutionists deny very major contingencies.

Many evolutionists fail to highlight the three kinds of phases in mutations.

Everybody neglects the benefit of keeping open multiple ideas towards multiple hypotheses, all the time.

Most of the confusion around what pre-Darwinists called evolution stems from its poor presenting as well as conceiving. I like most have had to struggle extremely. Many scientists such as those attending Santa Fe Institute Proceedings XIX couldn't grasp evolution.

I am constantly trying to re-paraphrase and to enhance my conceptions. Thank you!
 
Upvote 0

Warden_of_the_Storm

Well-Known Member
Oct 16, 2015
15,035
7,402
31
Wales
✟424,245.00
Country
United Kingdom
Gender
Male
Faith
Deist
Marital Status
Single
I'll put my creationist ideas about survival and progress of the human species up against any evolutionist, atheist, or scientist any day. Isn't that what it's all about?

So it'd be like Pomeranian barking against a brick wall. Pointless noise.
 
Upvote 0

OldWiseGuy

Wake me when it's soup.
Site Supporter
Feb 4, 2006
46,773
10,976
Wisconsin
Visit site
✟1,005,212.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Protestant
Marital Status
Single
Politics
US-Others
Last edited:
Upvote 0

AnotherAtheist

Gimmie dat ol' time physical evidence
Site Supporter
Aug 16, 2007
1,225
601
East Midlands
✟146,326.00
Faith
Atheist
Marital Status
In Relationship
I'll put my creationist ideas about survival and progress of the human species up against any evolutionist, atheist, or scientist any day. Isn't that what it's all about?

This would be more impressive if you could demonstrate that you actually understand ToE first.

Yes, you are prepared to put your creationist ideas about survival and progress of the human species up against any evolutionist etc. However, depending on the nature of your ideas, this might be a good thing, or a very bad thing.

Imagine if I thought that houses and buildings were held together by magic, and that the main function of security guards was to make a prayer to a deity each day so that the buildings don't just crumble into rubble due to lack of magic. If I then bullishly said that I'll put that idea up against any builder or architect, then would that be a good thing for me to do? Or would I be foolishly doubling down on stupidity.
 
Last edited:
Reactions: Ophiolite
Upvote 0

OldWiseGuy

Wake me when it's soup.
Site Supporter
Feb 4, 2006
46,773
10,976
Wisconsin
Visit site
✟1,005,212.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Protestant
Marital Status
Single
Politics
US-Others
Yes, you are prepared to put your creationist ideas about survival and progress of the human species up against any evolutionist etc. However, depending on the nature of your ideas, this might be a good thing, or a very bad thing.

I'll take that as a positive response.
 
Upvote 0

OldWiseGuy

Wake me when it's soup.
Site Supporter
Feb 4, 2006
46,773
10,976
Wisconsin
Visit site
✟1,005,212.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Protestant
Marital Status
Single
Politics
US-Others
My post posed a question, and my interpretation of your reply is that you dodged that question.

You posed rhetorical questions. If you ask a specific question I'll be happy to answer it.
 
Upvote 0

OldWiseGuy

Wake me when it's soup.
Site Supporter
Feb 4, 2006
46,773
10,976
Wisconsin
Visit site
✟1,005,212.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Protestant
Marital Status
Single
Politics
US-Others
Such a misunderstanding on your part would be consistent with your approach to evolution and discussions about evolution.

That was the only part of his post that in any way reflected my statement.
 
Upvote 0