How do we know . . . .

[Uphill Battle]

Of course I do. If my Priest started spouting heresy all of a sudden I can do something about it, and I wouldn't be forced out of the local congration for having do so either.

Forgive me...

heresy, as defined by... whom?

 

[OrthodoxyUSA]

heresy, as defined by... whom?

The Church... (*OrthodoxyUSA looks around for Gary51*)

through it's 3C's

Councils
Canons
Creeds

Forgive me...

 

[racer]

Your focus is incorrect.

LOL!! You are not focusing on what it is that I am saying. Then how do you the individual know this? How do you know that you are right about this? There is no avoiding private judgment no matter where that private judgment leads you.

It is not for individuals to determine... it is for the whole.

If you are speaking about picking a bishop or minister of/for a church, then you have a point. No individual single handedly picks a bishop.

That is what it means to test it by The Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit speaks through the entire Church . . .

Do you believe that the Holy Spirit does not speak to individuals?

.... see AXIOS.

So, I did and found this point to be very interesting. Of course, I used Wikipedia, so if you believe it is incorrect in it’s explanation of Axios, please refer me to a more suitable source. But, here is what I found:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Axios

Axios (Greek Άξιος, "[he is] worthy"), is an acclamation that is made by the faithful at the Ordination of bishops, priests and deacons in the Orthodox and Eastern Catholic churches. The acclamation may also be made when a bishop presents an ecclesiastical award to a clergyman during the Divine Liturgy.

The custom has its origins in the early church, when the clergy were elected by the entire church community, including the laity. This was based upon the precedent set in the Acts of the Apostles (Acts 1:15-26; Acts 6:2-61) It must be noted that election and Ordination (Greek: cheirotonea, literally, "laying-on of hands") are two separate actions. The election was accomplished by all, the laying-on of hands by the bishops only (I_Timothy 4:14). Because of the danger of politicizing the process, and electoral corruption, the clergy began to be appointed by the episcopate alone (a priest or deacon is appointed by the ruling bishop; a bishop is elected by a Synod). However, the biblical participation of the laity is still fulfilled, when the newly-ordained is being vested and presented to the people by the Bishop, they will exclaim, "Axios! Axios! Axios!" to show their approval.

There has been some discussion as to whether or not the withholding of "Axios" by the laity would somehow invalidate the ordination. However, the role of the laity has never been a sacramental one, and the teaching of the church regarding the validity of the Mysteries (Sacraments) is that they are not dependant upon the worthiness of the minister (see Donatism).

So, do the laity in the Orthodox church play a role in selecting their bishops and clergymen? Because this very definition sounds nearly identical to the process that Protestant churches follow. The “church” administration will send a minister to a church and the laity have a say as to whether the want to keep the person selected by the “church administration.

Anyhow, I’m not making any other connections as to why you are discussing “axios” here. Are you asserting it rules out private judgment in all Christian matters?

I thought I mentioned that already.

Maybe you did in a response to someone else, I don't have time to keep up with everyone's dialogue. But, if you did mention it to me, I’ve apparently missed it.

The governing body of Christian believers goes all the way back to the very beginning.

Uh huh. I’ve read my Bible. What we disagree on is the “scope” of the governing authority. All Protestant churches believe in and uphold the “teaching” authority of the church. We do not uphold a ruling/domineering authority of the Church.

Christ ascended and left James in charge. There has ALWAYS been a governing body.

Uh huh. I remember reading that, I think some will argue regarding Christ leaving James in charge, though.

It has ALWAYS been counciliar. It has always required the AXIOS of all her members. This is how The Holy Spirit speaks.

Says who? How do you take the term “axios” and determine that the Holy Spirit does not speak to individual.

Can you explain for me how this point addresses the OP?

 

[Uphill Battle]

The Church... (*OrthodoxyUSA looks around for Gary51*)

through it's 3C's

Councils
Canons
Creeds

Forgive me...

then you don't really have as much say as you were stating.

It's already been decided for you.

 

[Thekla]

then you don't really have as much say as you were stating.

It's already been decided for you.

kinda like the books in the Bible

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

The Church... (*OrthodoxyUSA looks around for Gary51*)

through it's 3C's

Councils
Canons
Creeds

Forgive me...

NOOOO!!!!!! You left out the SCRIPTURES!!!

http://www.scripture4all.org/

Ephes 4:30 and no be ye sorrowing the spirit, the holy, of the GOD/YHWH, in which ye were sealed into a day of redemption/apo-lutrwsewV <629>.

1 Corinthians 1:30 Out of Him yet, ye are in Christ Jesus, who was become wisdom to us from God, righteousness besides, and hallowing, and loosing/deliverence/apo-lutrwsiV <629>:

Luke 21:28 Beginning yet these-things to be becoming, up-bend ye! and lift-up! the heads of ye, thru-that is nearing the loosing/deliverence/apo-lutrwsiV <629> of ye.

 

[racer]

Again no where in the scripture it verifies that SS is the right approach to scriptural undersanding and interpretation.

Then what does SCRIPTURE say about understanding and interpreting Scripture?

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

Then what does SCRIPTURE say about understanding and interpreting Scripture?

Hi racer. Love your signature and avatar!!!

You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to racer again.

"In their assaults on Protestantism they have freely made use of infidel arguments. Their method has been that of some so-called Professor of biology: first to bewillder and stupefy their patients, that they may be ready to believe anything, and do anything, their mesmeriser tells them---George Salmon, The Infallibility of the Church 1888 edition

 

[racer]

What gives scripture it's authority?

Forgive me...

Well, let's see, there's II Tim 3:15 and scriptural passages such as:

Mar 12:24 And Jesus answering said unto them, Do ye not therefore err, because ye know not the scriptures, neither the power of God?

Jhn 5:39 Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me.

Act 17:2 And Paul, as his manner was, went in unto them, and three sabbath days reasoned with them out of the scriptures,

Act 17:11 These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so.

Rom 16:26 But now is made manifest, and by the scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the everlasting God, made known to all nations for the obedience of faith:
​

Then we have historical affirmation, and do I really need to re-post for you all of the numerous quotes of the ECFs which acknowledge and affirm the authority of Scripture?

 

[racer]

Hi racer. Love your signature and avatar!!!

You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to racer again.

"In their assaults on Protestantism they have freely made use of infidel arguments. Their method has been that of some so-called Professor of biology: first to bewillder and stupefy their patients, that they may be ready to believe anything, and do anything, their mesmeriser tells them---George Salmon, The Infallibility of the Church 1888 edition

Thany you! I just started reading George Salmon recently. So far, he makes good sense to me . . . .

 

[racer]

NOOOO!!!!!! You left out the SCRIPTURES!!!

And you're suprised?

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

And you're suprised?

Nah. I do notice the Orthodox and RCs do not post much Scriptures and always wondered why. When I debate atheists, jews and muslims I do post a lot of Scriptures, but then I usually get this in response: just as I do from a lot of Christian Denominations LOL......

Ephes 4:30 and no be ye sorrowing the spirit, the holy, of the GOD/YHWH, in which ye were sealed/esfragisqhte <4972> (5681) into a Day of redemption/apo-lutrwsewV <629>.

Luke 21:28 Beginning yet these-things to be becoming, up-bend! and lift-up! the heads of ye, thru-that is nearing the loosing/deliverence/apo-lutrwsiV <629> of ye.

 

[racer]

"I would not believe the Gospel if the authority of the Catholic Church did not compel me." (Ibid., p. 320 St. Augustine AD 420

On Christian Doctrine, Book I​

Chapter 40.—What Manner of Reader Scripture Demands.​

44. And, therefore, if a man fully understands that “the end of the commandment is charity, out of a pure heart, and of a good conscience, and of faith unfeigned,”1757 and is bent upon making all his understanding of Scripture to bear upon these three graces, he may come to the interpretation of these books with an easy mind.​

Book II​

Chapter 4.—Origin of Writing.​

5. But because words pass away as soon as they strike upon the air, and last no longer than their sound, men have by means of letters formed signs of words.​

Chapter 5.—Scripture Translated into Various Languages.​

6. And hence it happened that even Holy Scripture, which brings a remedy for the terrible diseases of the human will, being at first set forth in one language, by means of which it could at the fit season be disseminated through the whole world, was interpreted into various tongues, and spread far and wide, and thus became known to the nations for their salvation. And in reading it, men seek nothing more than to find out the thought and will of those by whom it was written, and 537 through these to find out the will of God, in accordance with which they believe these men to have spoken.​

Chapter 9.—How We Should Proceed in Studying Scripture.​

14. In all these books those who fear God and are of a meek and pious disposition seek the will of God. And in pursuing this search the first rule to be observed is, as I said, to know these books, if not yet with the understanding, still to read them so as to commit them to memory, or at least so as not to remain wholly ignorant of them. Next, those matters that are plainly laid down in them, whether rules of life or rules of faith, are to be searched into more carefully and more diligently; and the more of these a man discovers, the more capacious does his understanding become. For among the things that are plainly laid down in Scripture are to be found all matters that concern faith and the manner of life,—to wit, hope and love, of which I have spoken in the previous book.​

So, since you would argue that Augustine believed everything in accordance with the church, you must then argue that the church of St. Augustine’s time believed exactly what he wrote above regarding Scripture . . . .

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

Originally Posted by Trento "I would not believe the Gospel if the authority of the Catholic Church did not compel me." (Ibid., p. 320 St. Augustine AD 420

So, since you would argue that Augustine believed everything in accordance with the church, you must then argue that the church of St. Augustine’s time believed exactly what he wrote above regarding Scripture .

Hi racer. I found that quote by Trento so profound I decided to start a thread on it here:

http://christianforums.com/t7105273-the-gospel-and-rcc.html

 

[racer]

Oh, and how would we know that what was spoken by the was the same as what was written? Look here:

Acts 15:23 And they wrote [letters] by them after this manner; The apostles and elders and brethren [send] greeting unto the brethren which are of the Gentiles in Antioch and Syria and Cilicia:

15:24; Forasmuch as we have heard, that certain which went out from us have troubled you with words, subverting your souls, saying, [Ye must] be circumcised, and keep the law: to whom we gave no [such] commandment:

15:25; It seemed good unto us, being assembled with one accord, to send chosen men unto you with our beloved Barnabas and Paul,

15:26; Men that have hazarded their lives for the name of our Lord Jesus Christ.

15:27; We have sent therefore Judas and Silas, who shall also tell [you] the same things by mouth.

 

[OrthodoxyUSA]

NOOOO!!!!!! You left out the SCRIPTURES!!!

http://www.scripture4all.org/

Ephes 4:30 and no be ye sorrowing the spirit, the holy, of the GOD/YHWH, in which ye were sealed into a day of redemption/apo-lutrwsewV <629>.

1 Corinthians 1:30 Out of Him yet, ye are in Christ Jesus, who was become wisdom to us from God, righteousness besides, and hallowing, and loosing/deliverence/apo-lutrwsiV <629>:

So heresy (all of them) are defined by The Holy Scripture. Is that what you are implying?

Forgive me...

 

[OrthodoxyUSA]

Well, let's see, there's II Tim 3:15 and scriptural passages such as:

Mar 12:24 And Jesus answering said unto them, Do ye not therefore err, because ye know not the scriptures, neither the power of God? ​

Jhn 5:39 Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me. ​

Act 17:2 And Paul, as his manner was, went in unto them, and three sabbath days reasoned with them out of the scriptures, ​

Act 17:11 These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so. ​

Rom 16:26 But now is made manifest, and by the scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the everlasting God, made known to all nations for the obedience of faith:​

Then we have historical affirmation, and do I really need to re-post for you all of the numerous quotes of the ECFs which acknowledge and affirm the authority of Scripture?

All of which only speak of the OT... specifically the LXX.

Forgive me...

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

So heresy (all of them) are defined by The Holy Scripture. Is that what you are implying?

Forgive me...

Hi Othodoxy!!!! How did the RCC come to the conclusion that us Protestants, and you Orthodox are outside the CHURCH/BODY OF CHRIST?

Surely not by using the Scriptures I would think.

LLOJ [perhaps someone can bump that thread up on the OBOB board since I am declared as "persona non grata" there LOL]

http://foru.ms/t6399100-question-for-catholics-vs-orthodox.html

...........Papal primacy, with its infamous and inane self-proclamation of infallibility, is the most damaging heresy ever to wage war against the true Church and Body of Christ, and it has been waging this war for over a thousand years. The Pope shamelessly proclaims to the world that the Papacy is the Church that Christ founded on earth. No wonder the name of Christ is blasphemed among the nations, for the Pope is not at all like Christ. Christ said of Himself,

 

[racer]

All of which only speak of the OT... specifically the LXX.

Forgive me...

No, Peter specifically speaks of Pauls letters as being Scripture.

Act 17:2 And Paul, as his manner was, went in unto them, and three sabbath days reasoned with them out of the scriptures,
​

Is not God the ultimate author of Scripture? Is He not all knowing? Would He not have known that there would be new Scripture along with the old? And, since you believe that they could only have been referring to the Old Testament, do you think that nullifies the authority of the New Testament?

 

[OrthodoxyUSA]

No, Peter specifically speaks of Pauls letters as being Scripture.

Act 17:2And Paul, as his manner was, went in unto them, and three sabbath days reasoned with them out of the scriptures,​

You're quoting ACTS... written by St. Luke, not Peter, and the scriptures spoken of are the LXX.

Is not God the ultimate author of Scripture? Is He not all knowing? Would He not have known that there would be new Scripture along with the old? And, since you believe that they could only have been referring to the Old Testament, do you think that nullifies the authority of the New Testament?

​

I've heard this many times. I see no redeemable value to the statement.

Forgive me...