How do we know . . . .

[Gary51]

ton Ekklesia ?

You have the advantage... as I don't know what you mean.

 

[Thekla]

You have the advantage... as I don't know what you mean.

of the Church

 

[Gary51]

We test everything against srcipture as well... and if we were to find error we take corrective action. History shows this very well.

As to which is correct, the Didache or Holy Scripture on the matter of unforgivable sins....

The Church has always stated it's understanding of unforgivable sin this way...

To not ask forgiveness, or to deny that Christ can forgive all sin is the true nature of blaspheming The Holy Spirit, and is the only unforgivable sin.

Tradition is what it takes to clear the matter.

Forgive me...

 

[Gary51]

of the Church

Sorry... still no wiser.

 

[racer]

Everything Tradition is scriptural. That doesn't mean it's in scripture, but it doesn't go against scripture, and it always points back to the Church.

1) How is it Scriptural? 1) What evidence would you give someone of whom you are trying to convince this. 3) And if you consider it all to be Scriptural, what is your beef with the ideology of Sola Scriptura?

The words are different, the message and teachings are the same.

So, basically, the words of Tradition are simply Scripture paraphrased? You know, I really wouldn't argue with that, if that’s what you mean. Because, whoever it was (OUSA I think) who brought up texts like the Didache and The Shepard of Hermas, serves as evidence that during the time of the apostles and the earliest church—pre-Bible—the messages and teachings of the Apostles were circulated in written form. For instance, I read the Didache and picture a man who attended an apostolic service and was greatly inspired to help spread the Gospel. So, this man sits down and to the best of his ability and memory capacity rights down what he could remember and uses that text to deliver the Gospel to others. It proves that though the masses heard the Gospel, it was circulated in some type of written form.

The Church knows what you need to become perfect as our heavenly Father is perfect.

How do you know the Church does this, more less your church?

You may find tidbits here and there looking on your own, but only in the Church can you find the fullness of teaching and Truth.

Yes, the church has teaching authority and the majority of us need instruction. Why else would ECFs such as Augustine write so much. Augustine expounded greatly in his treatise On Christian Doctrine.

Because when someone says this Scripture verse means this on a forum, and the Church hasn't always taught your new meaning, you've taken Scripture out of the context of Tradition.

So, you presume that basically you know more than those who disagree with you? Like RCs/Orthodox love to argue, the Bible doesn’t contain the term Trinity, it does describe and define a doctrine to which Christianity has given a name. Scripture describes the theory of Sola Scriptura, and many ECFs believed accordingly, they may not have used the term Sola Scriptura, but that can be attributed to the fact they never dreamed that anyone would dare presume to assert that an institution, a person or ecclesiastical position was of equal authority to Scripture. I have provided explicit citations from Augustine stating that Scripture was of sublime authority to humanity and the mortals through which it was originally delivered to the masses. I have quoted him stating that it contains all that is necessary for healing the human soul. Yet, no one can cite him stating explicitly that oral Tradition or the Church was of equal authority.

 

[OrthodoxyUSA]

*OrthodoxyUSA lines up his shot*
*Gary51 pays very close attention*
*OrthodoxyUSA takes a practice swing*
*OrthodoxyUSA lines the putter up again*
*Gary51 stands by, closely watching*
*What's this, OrthodoxyUSA changes clubs?*
*OrthodoxyUSA grabs for his bag and pulls out "The Church*
*Gary51 falls to the green mumbling... for pity's sake...*

I didn't know you were paying so close attention.

THE CHURCH! THE HOLY EUCHARIST! CHRIST OUR GOD!

Muwhahhahhahahha

Forgive me...

 

[OrthodoxyUSA]

You have the advantage... as I don't know what you mean.

It's greek.

Technically it is simply "of the Church", the meaning carried with it however is that of the ENTIRE UNITED BODY... all the churches... It is greatly related to "kata holos"... (catholic = concern for the whole)

Forgive me...

 

[racer]

None of the Orthodox or Catholics appear to be getting the gist of the OP, few have even addressed it. If Scripture says “beware false Gospels,” how does one know if he is being taught a false Gospel. Both of these faiths believe their church to be the one true Church, how do you people know you’re right and those who disagree with you are wrong? Why would God tell us to beware false Gospels if He did not believe/know that individuals could justly and correctly determine what the true Gospel was? How would He expect individuals to determine if the “true Gospel” is being taught if He did not provide a “measure” to test what is being taught against? And, how would he expect the individual to “test” what was only preserved in oral form?

 

[racer]

Sorry... still no wiser.

Refer to my signature . . . .

 

[OrthodoxyUSA]

1) How is it Scriptural? 1) What evidence would you give someone of whom you are trying to convince this. 3) And if you consider it all to be Scriptural, what is your beef with the ideology of Sola Scriptura?

So, basically, the words of Tradition are simply Scripture paraphrased? You know, I really wouldn't argue with that, if that’s what you mean. Because, whoever it was (OUSA I think) who brought up texts like the Didache and The Shepard of Hermas, serves as evidence that during the time of the apostles and the earliest church—pre-Bible—the messages and teachings of the Apostles were circulated in written form. For instance, I read the Didache and picture a man who attended an apostolic service and was greatly inspired to help spread the Gospel. So, this man sits down and to the best of his ability and memory capacity rights down what he could remember and uses that text to deliver the Gospel to others. It proves that though the masses heard the Gospel, it was circulated in some type of written form.

How do you know the Church does this, more less your church?

Yes, the church has teaching authority and the majority of us need instruction. Why else would ECFs such as Augustine write so much. Augustine expounded greatly in his treatise On Christian Doctrine.

So, you presume that basically you know more than those who disagree with you? Like RCs/Orthodox love to argue, the Bible doesn’t contain the term Trinity, it does describe and define a doctrine to which Christianity has given a name. Scripture describes the theory of Sola Scriptura, and many ECFs believed accordingly, they may not have used the term Sola Scriptura, but that can be attributed to the fact they never dreamed that anyone would dare presume to assert that an institution, a person or ecclesiastical position was of equal authority to Scripture. I have provided explicit citations from Augustine stating that Scripture was of sublime authority to humanity and the mortals through which it was originally delivered to the masses. I have quoted him stating that it contains all that is necessary for healing the human soul. Yet, no one can cite him stating explicitly that oral Tradition or the Church was of equal authority.

No, it is our presumption that "The Church" knows better. We are not individuals who speak of our own opinion... which of course is worthless.

BTW ~ A little more study of Blessed Augustine would show that he recanted of most everything he wrote in his early works. He is a Saint, not for what he taught, but rather for his repentance.

Forgive me...

 

[racer]

Why settle for half the story?

Because is spite of all of this talk, we've yet to be given the other supposed half . . . .

 

[racer]

Where does it say this, in scripture?

That's the problem you and all Protestants keep avoiding

No, the problem is you refuse to educate yourself regarding the "true" definition of Sola Scriptura.

Also, knowing Hentenza I think he misspoke/mistyped. Traditions of Protestant churches do not have to be Scripturally sound.

 

[racer]

Objectively speaking we don't.

Peace

Gee, a simple, explicit and honest answer . . .

 

[OrthodoxyUSA]

None of the Orthodox or Catholics appear to be getting the gist of the OP, few have even addressed it. If Scripture says “beware false Gospels,” how does one know if he is being taught a false Gospel. Both of these faiths believe their church to be the one true Church, how do you people know you’re right and those who disagree with you are wrong? Why would God tell us to beware false Gospels if He did not believe/know that individuals could justly and correctly determine what the true Gospel was? How would He expect individuals to determine if the “true Gospel” is being taught if He did not provide a “measure” to test what is being taught against? And, how would he expect the individual to “test” what was only preserved in oral form?

Your focus is incorrect. It is not for individuals to determine... it is for the whole. That is what it means to test it by The Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit speaks through the entire Church.... see AXIOS.

I thought I mentioned that already.

The governing body of Christian believers goes all the way back to the very beginning. Christ ascended and left James in charge. There has ALWAYS been a governing body. It has ALWAYS been counciliar. It has always required the AXIOS of all her members. This is how The Holy Spirit speaks.

Forgive me...

 

[Philothei]

I agree . . . and this:

AUTOMATICALLY places the authority as LESS THAN SCRIPTURE . . . (though there is AN authority albeit fallible) . . . and this is what I have been saying all along.

Authority is to Christ not the scripture... Scripture is only what they "could fit" as it already says in John that if all that Christ taught and do was in scripture then all the books could not contain it... Tradtion is used where we need to interpret the scripture... just instead of using Luther for exammple we use the Fathers... since they did put the canon together, they come from the same tradition as the Apostles, and they maintained as a group the mind of the Christ and his Church.

Many here equate tradition on par with Scripture IT IS NOT. Period.

Again no where in the scripture it verifies that SS is the right approach to scriptural undersanding and interpretation.

 

[sunlover1]

We test everything against srcipture as well...

ME too, looking into a teaching
right now in fact, something I've
been 'taught' by men that doesnt
seem to 'jive'.

 

[OrthodoxyUSA]

ME too, looking into a teaching
right now in fact, something I've
been 'taught' by men that doesnt
seem to 'jive'.

We do so collectivly not just indivually.

AXIOS!

Forgive me...

 

[Uphill Battle]

We do so collectivly not just indivually.

AXIOS!

Forgive me...

do you.

so tell me, you have a voice? You have influence? You have some input in EO doctrines?

do tell.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

Originally Posted by OrthodoxyUSA
We test everything against scripture as well...

ME too, looking into a teaching
right now in fact, something I've
been 'taught' by men that doesnt
seem to 'jive'.

Interesting that Paul says the same thing in this verse

1 Corinthians 7:23 with a price ye were bought/hgorasqhte <59>, become not bond-servants/douloi <1401> of men;

Revelation 5:9 and they sing a new song, saying, `Worthy art thou to take the scroll, and to open the seals of it, because Thou wast slaughtered, and didst purchase/hgorasaV <59> Us to God in Thy blood, out of every tribe, and tongue, and people, and nation

 

[OrthodoxyUSA]

do you.

so tell me, you have a voice? You have influence? You have some input in EO doctrines?

do tell.

Of course I do. If my Priest started spouting heresy all of a sudden I can do something about it, and I wouldn't be forced out of the local congration for having do so either.

Forgive me...