How do we know . . . .

[sunlover1]

We all bring our own biases and theology to the Bible. But Bible Christians do this in a very peculiar way. They set up a mental theological sieve and pour the Bible through it. Please don’t think that I’m criticizing Bible Christians; most are good, godly, and sincere people (after all I used to be one, so they can’t be all bad, right?). But as a Bible Christian I simply cannot remember a time when I ever went to the Bible to teach me anything. I brought my own principles and preconceived theology to the Bible and asked it to support me.

Hi Trento.

Not a good plan for sure.

But I'm sure it's common to bring our own preconceived
theology into anything we read or hear.

it’s hard to debate a Bible that exists only in my friend’s head. Let me give an example: 2 Timothy 3:14–17 was used by my preacher friend to support his claim. My written Bible said this:

"But as for you, continue in what you have learned and have firmly believed, knowing from whom you learned it and how from childhood you have been acquainted with the sacred writings which are able to instruct you wise for salvation through faith in Christ Jesus. All scripture is inspired by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness, that the man of God may be complete, equipped for every good work."

His mental Bible said this:

"But as for you, continue in what you have learned and have firmly believed, knowing you learned it from the Holy Spirit and how from childhood you have been acquainted with the sacred writings which are solely sufficient to instruct you for salvation through faith in Christ Jesus. All scripture that we have today, except for those books that the Catholics added at the Council of Trent, is inspired by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness, that the man of God may be complete, equipped for every good work through Scripture alone."

His version of the Bible also had some qualities that mine did not. First, it had this strange way of being impervious to the original Greek language. Second, every verse stood on its own and had no need to be read in context. Third, his Bible had the unique ability to change its wording and sentence structure at will. You can see my dilemma: I was stuck with the plain old Bible that was not near as "living and active" as was his.
To most Bible Christians, history moves forward in leaps and bounds. First there were Jesus and the twelve apostles, and then there was Paul, and then there was Martin Luther (with maybe a brief stop to visit Hus and Wycliff). One thousand five hundred years of history simply vanish without a trace.

[/quote]
Yikes!
He said 'that'??
THAT's why we cant trust men's theories,
and need to ALWAYS check Scripture,
God's way, meditating on it, studying it,
not letting it out of our site, KNOWING
that God desires to illuminate our path.

(Thy Word is a lamp unto our feet and it's
a light unto our paths)

IT gives us understanding:
The entrance of thy words give light;
it gives understanding unto the simple.


But we need to meditate on it.
Mine eyes prevent thenight watches,
that I might meditate in thy word.


It leads us to truth
Sanctify them through thy truth:
thy word is truth.

But we have to hide it in our hearts
Thy word have I hid in mine heart,
that I might not sin against thee.


It's a gift from God and the world hates it.
14 I have given them thy word;
and the world hath hated them,
because they are not of the world,
even as I am not of the world



A few of the reasons that I'm
thankful for Scripture,
sunlover

 

[Uphill Battle]

What gives scripture it's authority?

Forgive me...

I would think the fact that God thought it important enough to inspire it, would tip you off.

yes I do so what? I also believe that God inspired the Fathers and the councils... The canon was put together by these inspired people or not?? You are the one denying it.. You agree they are inspired but you reject the people? How so?

not in the same manner as you believe. I believe Christians are "inspired" to a degree, as we can't recognize the gospel as truth without the inspiration of the Holy Spirit. Do i think they are "inspired" in the same manner as the scriptures? not even close.

The apostles were inspired and wrote the gospel... their follwoers and their succersors were not inspired?

no, they were not. I've explained why above.

??? Yeah why I wonder to get more confused and interpet the gospel on his own and fall into wrong teaching??

yes, I'm VERY confused. I though PETER was the Messiah, not Jesus! My word, good thing you pointed out how confused us Sola Scripturists are... we'd never be able to figure it out!

And interpet the Bible according to his own teaching we already said that...

yes, you have. It's the "dirty word" to EO, and RCC. anyone who would dare read scripture for themselves.

If history and historical evidence is not enough for you to understand or not willing it is not my fault. If 2,000 years of ecclesiastical tradition is not enough and trust the tradition of Sola scriptura which is in reality "sola (individual) scriptura" then I say okay you win!!

I think I've been quite clear that I don't buy the 2000 year of unchanging perfection argument.

You do not have to do that "to buy" ... But do not try to attribute "problems" of faith and shortcomings of people on the "tradition" where the same problems exist (sometimes worse) among the sola scripturists....

difference is, I don't know many Protestants or Sola Scripturists outside of a few fringe groups that claim to have all the answers.

The reason St. Ignatious writings they were not cannonized does not mean they were heretical or unimportant...

didn't bring up either word, either heretical or unimportant. YOU did.

wrong ...No where in the bible says that the bible is the authority.. proof??

it doesn't have to. But then, if you understood Sola Sciptura, you'd know that.

I would say "The Church", which of course is given authority by God.

That's why Christ God established the Apostles and the Bishops.

Forgive me...

I'm sure you would!

everyone who is in a "one true" church says the same damn thing.

 

[Montalban]

it doesn't have to. But then, if you understood Sola Sciptura, you'd know that.

Why not give your version of what this means?

 

[Uphill Battle]

Why not give your version of what this means?

what, you want me to tell YOU what it means for the 12th time? did the first 11 not take?

 

[Philothei]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Philotei
yes I do so what? I also believe that God inspired the Fathers and the councils... The canon was put together by these inspired people or not?? You are the one denying it.. You agree they are inspired but you reject the people? How so?

not in the same manner as you believe. I believe Christians are "inspired" to a degree, as we can't recognize the gospel as truth without the inspiration of the Holy Spirit. Do i think they are "inspired" in the same manner as the scriptures? not even close.




Why is so? Inspiration by God does not stop there.. right? Show me where in the Bible it says that it does?
But you have to admit people wrote the scripture... people who were inspired by God... This does not make any sense... to me. You accepting the "product" but deny that the community of the believers were inspired. It is not logical.

 

[OrthodoxyUSA]

I'm sure you would!

everyone who is in a "one true" church says the same damn thing.

Please don't curse.

Would you classify yourself as a nonconformist?

Forgive me...

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

Originally Posted by Trento
We all bring our own biases and theology to the Bible. But Bible Christians do this in a very peculiar way. They set up a mental theological sieve and pour the Bible through it. Please don’t think that I’m criticizing Bible Christians; most are good, godly, and sincere people (after all I used to be one, so they can’t be all bad, right?). But as a Bible Christian I simply cannot remember a time when I ever went to the Bible to teach me anything. I brought my own principles and preconceived theology to the Bible and asked it to support me.

If you never remember a time going to the Bible to teach you anything, then how could you say you were a Bible Christian?

http://www.scripture4all.org/

Reve 5:6 And I saw and behold! in midst of the throne and of the four living-ones and in midst of the elders a lamb-kin/n standing, as having been slaughtered/esfagmenon/n <4969> (5772),

Reve 13:3 And one/f, out of the heads/f of it/n, as having been slaughtered/esfagmenhn/f <4969> (5772) into death/qanaton <2288>, and the blow/stripe/plhgh <4127> of the death/qanatou <2288> of it was healed, and marvels whole the land behind of the wild-beast.

Reve 18:24 and in her, blood of prophets and of saints was found, and of all the ones having been slaughtered/esfagmenwn <4969> (5772) upon the land​

 

[WarriorAngel]

If we are being taught a "false Gospel?"

Your post is all i read...
BUT I know that you know what I would say.
But anyway, you know - if it isnt from [or taught] by the original Church.

 

[WarriorAngel]

Seriously, i could pick up a Bible and interpret it to what i liked...[without using the Catholic reasoning] and it would be sola scriptura, because i can believe whatever i like.

Does that make me right?

So since Jesus said to the woman at the well..
'You have 5 husbands'...
Does that mean we are legally married to the first man we are with?



No. [unless we had wedding vows]

Figured i would answer that. Since fornication is wrong. BUT the Bible seems to tell us otherwise...IF we can interpret it ourself.

Sola Scriptura doesnt work.

 

[OrthodoxyUSA]

FWIW ~ If you have intercource, you are married... the two become one.

Forgive me...

 

[Uphill Battle]

Please don't curse.

Would you classify yourself as a nonconformist?

Forgive me...

not particularly. I just don't let other people do my thinking for me.

 

[OrthodoxyUSA]

not particularly. I just don't let other people do my thinking for me.

May I ask then... What have you conformed to?

I don't seem to see you following any particular branch of Theologics.

Forgive me...

 

[Uphill Battle]

May I ask then... What have you conformed to?

I don't seem to see you following any particular branch of Theologics.

Forgive me...

I've conformed to Christ.

I don't have an alma mater.

 

[OrthodoxyUSA]

I've conformed to Christ.

I don't have an alma mater.

Would you be willing to say that it is your own standards that you have conformed to?

IOW~ You read for yourself and make the best decisions you can on your own because you trust nobody else to minister to you?

Are you without an earthly Bishop?

Forgive me...

 

[WarriorAngel]

Community=towns. The apostles travelled from town to town establishing Christian communities. Another thing you didn't see them doing was worshipping in Chapels. They taught outside in the streets and in different peoples homes . . . so what's your point?

They established ONE truth. They didnt go to every town and teach something different.

Remember that.

FWIW ~ If you have intercource, you are married... the two become one.

Forgive me...

Not legally...for the Bible tells us that fornication is sin. Fornication outside of marriage [a Rite -sacrament- before God, where you make vows]

FWIW.

To have intercourse outside of marriage is not being married...it is a serious sin.
SO Jesus wasnt condoning that. Its all about context.
He was emphasizing a severe point.

John 4
16 Jesus saith to her: Go, call thy husband, and come hither. 17 The woman answered, and said: I have no husband. Jesus said to her: Thou hast said well, I have no husband: 18 For thou hast had five husbands: and he whom thou now hast, is not thy husband. This thou hast said truly.

 

[Uphill Battle]

Would you be willing to say that it is your own standards that you have conformed to?

IOW~ You read for yourself and make the best decisions you can on your own because you trust nobody else to minister to you?

Are you without an earthly Bishop?

Forgive me...

I have a pastor. He ministers to our church. He is NOT however, a supreme leader who's every word goes, nor does he try to be.

I know the picture you're trying to paint, and it's inaccurate.

 

[Uphill Battle]

They established ONE truth. They didnt go to every town and teach something different.

Remember that.

Not legally...for the Bible tells us that fornication is sin. Fornication outside of marriage [a Rite -sacrament- before God, where you make vows]

FWIW.

To have intercourse outside of marriage is not being married...it is a serious sin.
SO Jesus wasnt condoning that. Its all about context.
He was emphasizing a severe point.

John 4
16 Jesus saith to her: Go, call thy husband, and come hither. 17 The woman answered, and said: I have no husband. Jesus said to her: Thou hast said well, I have no husband: 18 For thou hast had five husbands: and he whom thou now hast, is not thy husband. This thou hast said truly.

I think the decision goes to WA in that one.

 

[OrthodoxyUSA]

They established ONE truth. They didnt go to every town and teach something different.

Remember that.

Not legally...for the Bible tells us that fornication is sin. Fornication outside of marriage [a Rite -sacrament- before God, where you make vows]

FWIW.

To have intercourse outside of marriage is not being married...it is a serious sin.
SO Jesus wasnt condoning that. Its all about context.
He was emphasizing a severe point.

John 4
16 Jesus saith to her: Go, call thy husband, and come hither. 17 The woman answered, and said: I have no husband. Jesus said to her: Thou hast said well, I have no husband: 18 For thou hast had five husbands: and he whom thou now hast, is not thy husband. This thou hast said truly.

I think you missed the point. I wasn't speaking of legality, but spiritually. Once joined, there is no unjoining. The two have become one. Choosing another partner at any time after that would be to violate that marriage which God had joined.

Dating is practice for divorce. Get it?

God did not make Adam five wives. Were they legally married?

The ceremony is just ceremony. The two becoming one happens at consumation. From there on out we are to have no other above the person we are married to.

Forgive me...

 

[Philothei]

not particularly. I just don't let other people do my thinking for me.

wow ... what a twist... turning the resposibility on others...just wow...

 

[OrthodoxyUSA]

I have a pastor. He ministers to our church. He is NOT however, a supreme leader who's every word goes, nor does he try to be.

Neither is mine.

I know the picture you're trying to paint, and it's inaccurate.

I'm asking you to clarify. Are you... Baptist? Methodist? Presbyterian?.. I doubt it. Where is the uniforminty, the oneness of mind?

I guess my point is... well, you seem to disagree with a lot... but most of all with the things that don't matter.

Forgive me...