How do we know we are saved

[MrJim]

Hey Jim,

I have often thought about the very thing you wrote (I guess is my old Catholic upbringing) but then there is another verse that comes to mind.

2 Corinthians 5:17-19
17Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation; the old has gone, the new has come! 18All this is from God, who reconciled us to himself through Christ and gave us the ministry of reconciliation: 19that God was reconciling the world to himself in Christ, not counting men's sins against them. And he has committed to us the message of reconciliation.

I have been wrestling with the question of when do we become a new creation? It seems illogical and contradictory that if we become righteous in the eyes of the Lord at the moment of justification (faith in Christ only) that we would not become a new creation then. If we become a new creation at the moment of justification and since God will not count our sins against us, then we can not loose salvation, however, if we do not become a new creation at the moment of justification then we are still the same person that we were before accepting Christ as our Lord and Savior and we can then loose salvation. Maybe I am just over thinking this.

Again, the warnings...I don't like so much the word "lose" as much as casting aside, turning away, apostasizing...a new creation indeed, yet:

2Pet 2:20 –2Pet 2:22 KJV
For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning. For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them. But it is happened unto them according to the true proverb, The dog is turned to his own vomit again; and the sow that was washed to her wallowing in the mire.

 

[CADude12]

Now, doesn't what we believe about this come from our faith traditions? What's not been unraveled in 400 years, isn't going to be settled in a couple of paragraphs.

For disclosure, I am a Calvinist. Only the grace received by the gift of faith sustains me. Real faith will bring with it "works" - things we do because our faith leads us to do it. But this faith is still God's gift.

 

[MoNiCa4316]

The message of Grace... Salvation = Faith + Nothing.

I'd like to hear opinions from others who may feel differently.

God bless

Hi,
well I believe that faith+nothing = dead faith. Living faith by definition includes good works. It's not about the number of good works, it's about the love with which we do them. If we live out our faith, it is real. Otherwise, it's make belief or intellectual opinion or a feeling. We need works to make our faith a saving faith.

as the Bible says...

James 2:

14What good is it, my brothers, if a man claims to have faith but has no deeds? Can such faith save him? 15Suppose a brother or sister is without clothes and daily food. 16If one of you says to him, "Go, I wish you well; keep warm and well fed," but does nothing about his physical needs, what good is it? 17In the same way, faith by itself, if it is not accompanied by action, is dead.

18But someone will say, "You have faith; I have deeds."
Show me your faith without deeds, and I will show you my faith by what I do.
19You believe that there is one God. Good! Even the demons believe that—and shudder.
20You foolish man, do you want evidence that faith without deeds is useless[d]? 21Was not our ancestor Abraham considered righteous for what he did when he offered his son Isaac on the altar? 22You see that his faith and his actions were working together, and his faith was made complete by what he did. 23And the scripture was fulfilled that says, "Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness,"[e] and he was called God's friend. 24You see that a person is justified by what he does and not by faith alone. 25In the same way, was not even Rahab the prostitute considered righteous for what she did when she gave lodging to the spies and sent them off in a different direction? 26As the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without deeds is dead.

In fact Luther even wanted to remove James from the Bible (along with the deuterocanonicals) because of this chapter.

What I personally believe is that we're saved by grace alone, because of Christ's sacrifice, through faith working in love. It is also what the Catholic Church teaches. it's not about earning salvation, it's about having living faith; really loving the Lord in actions not just in words. "whoever loves Me will obey My commands"

God bless!

 

[Nadiine]

Now, doesn't what we believe about this come from our faith traditions? What's not been unraveled in 400 years, isn't going to be settled in a couple of paragraphs.

For disclosure, I am a Calvinist. Only the grace received by the gift of faith sustains me. Real faith will bring with it "works" - things we do because our faith leads us to do it. But this faith is still God's gift.

[my emphasis]
Yes, but the problem arises when people who claim God live in sin or live to promote sin (ie. supporting homosexuality, abortion [rights], etc.) and think God's all great with it. (mainly becuz they either [mis]interpret scripture rather metaphorically or unorthodoxly and/or deny it's inerrant in its teachings).
Alot hinges on the beliefs about scripture.

Sound doctrine has gone out the window for these types of folks while they claim Christianity.
These folks are just as sure that they're saved as a bible thumping fundamentalist (meant only in emphasis using an extreme opposite - I'm rather partial to 'btf's' )

Those in Islam who use violence against others truly believe they're 'saved' in Allah & doing his work... but nonviolent muslims will tell you that those aren't truly Muslims & they've misinterpreted the Koran.

Mat. 7:21-23 shows me that people do think they're saved - when they actually are not.

We'd do well to take God's advice:
2 Corinthians 13:5
Test yourselves to see if you are in the faith; examine yourselves! Or do you not recognize this about yourselves, that Jesus Christ is in you--unless indeed you fail the test?

My first litmus test on examination is if sin doesn't convict me inwardly or I'm apathetic towards it.
I believe if moral sin doesn't bother us that's a good indicator we have spiritual issues going on.

As John MacArthur put it so well:

Sin in the believer is a burden which afflicts him
Rather than a pleasure which delights him​

 

[MrJim]

Now, doesn't what we believe about this come from our faith traditions? What's not been unraveled in 400 years, isn't going to be settled in a couple of paragraphs.

Don't settle for 400 years~there's a couple thousand years of Church history

 

[MrJim]

[my emphasis]
Yes, but the problem arises when people who claim God live in sin or live to promote sin (ie. supporting homosexuality, abortion [rights], etc.) and think God's all great with it. (mainly becuz they either [mis]interpret scripture rather metaphorically or unorthodoxly and/or deny it's inerrant in its teachings).
Alot hinges on the beliefs about scripture.

There are much sin~it doesn't have to be liberal agenda kinds of sin either~that we are guilty of, and perhaps don't even see it. There is sin in our individual lives only known between God and us~everyone else sees a cleaned up nice Christian person when inside there are issues...homosexuality and abortion are easy; others perhaps not so easy to see..

 

[JustAsIam77]

Now, doesn't what we believe about this come from our faith traditions? What's not been unraveled in 400 years, isn't going to be settled in a couple of paragraphs.

For disclosure, I am a Calvinist. Only the grace received by the gift of faith sustains me. Real faith will bring with it "works" - things we do because our faith leads us to do it. But this faith is still God's gift.

I agree.

My father was a deacon then elder in our church when I was a child. He raised me to believe I had to "work" my way into heaven. As if it was a reward for living a sin free life. Yep, he was a legalist bless his heart. (He passed on long ago).

I was stunned to learn of justification by faith when I was in high school. Jesus' rightiousness was imparted to me simply because of my belief in His atonement. What an awakening that was. A free gift because of Gods grace.

So if I come across as some kind of supporter for doing anything one wants and it's OK I don't mean to come off that way. I'm overly sensitive to the works based salvation crowd because thats the way I was raised and believe me it's a torturous way to have to live with that burden every day.

As far as my OP I think Romans 8:16 is a good indication of how we know we're saved:



16The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God: 17And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together.

The HS lets us know. We just know.

 

[Nadiine]

There are much sin~it doesn't have to be liberal agenda kinds of sin either~that we are guilty of, and perhaps don't even see it. There is sin in our individual lives only known between God and us~everyone else sees a cleaned up nice Christian person when inside there are issues...homosexuality and abortion are easy; others perhaps not so easy to see..

I agree, but my point was about people who refuse to even acknowledge what sin is as per scripture. If something isn't "wrong", how do you examine the "sin" in your life or repent of it?

But then deep down, I think they do know it's sin

 

[JustAsIam77]

I agree, but my point was about people who refuse to even acknowledge what sin is as per scripture. If something isn't "wrong", how do you examine the "sin" in your life or repent of it?

But then deep down, I think they do know it's sin

I believe the HS convicts a believers heart as to what is wrong or sinful.

People who refuse to acknowledge what sin is according to scripture ? I don't understand that one either, (if they're professing Chritians). Obviously the HS isn't convicting there spirit that sin is what scripture says it is. Then perhaps they may not be what they profess to be.

I'm not judging though. I'm always very careful about that. Just sayin.

 

[JustAsIam77]

Hi,
well I believe that faith+nothing = dead faith. Living faith by definition includes good works. It's not about the number of good works, it's about the love with which we do them. If we live out our faith, it is real. Otherwise, it's make belief or intellectual opinion or a feeling. We need works to make our faith a saving faith.

as the Bible says...

James 2:



In fact Luther even wanted to remove James from the Bible (along with the deuterocanonicals) because of this chapter.

What I personally believe is that we're saved by grace alone, because of Christ's sacrifice, through faith working in love. It is also what the Catholic Church teaches. it's not about earning salvation, it's about having living faith; really loving the Lord in actions not just in words. "whoever loves Me will obey My commands"

God bless!

I have to fess up, my conscience is telling me to.

I didn't come up with Salvation = Faith + Nothing. I agree with it though. I get a newsletter from Les Feldick Ministries and he had it in there.

"Dear Friends, With the arrival of autumn, we begin to reflect on the past year at Les Feldick Ministries. As the program continues to reach more households across the country, we marvel at how the message of Grace (Salvation = Faith + Nothing) continues to impact so many lives, an astounding number of which are hearing the good news for the first time. We also wonder how many more seasons will come and go before we hear the trump and shout and see our Lord coming through the clouds."

I've followed Les for a long time on tv. He's a simple cattle rancher from Oklahoma who holds bible studies. A true man of God IMO.

 

[dan p]

I have heard of Les Fedick through a friend in Forida, ST. Petersburg who knows him. He has spoken at Grace Bible College in Michigan. For a while there I thought that would meet and that I would have the opuntunity to house him. By the way the word SOZO, means saved.

1) it is in the -perfect tense which means a PAST action , with CONTINUING results.

2) which means saved always saved.

3) It is in the PASSIVE voice, means that was an action being done to you.

4) It also means that it is in the Indicative Mood, which means that when you were saved you , it is a FACT.

 

[Angel4Truth]

Thought this apropriate for the thread topic and explores this very issue - entitled "How do you know that you believe?"

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OY6F0pkArds