How do we know we are saved

[JustAsIam77]

The message of Grace... Salvation = Faith + Nothing.

I'd like to hear opinions from others who may feel differently.

God bless

 

[MrJim]

 

[JustAsIam77]

 

[Secundulus]

How does faith manifest itself in the individual who says they have faith?

 

[JustAsIam77]

How does faith manifest itself in the individual who says they have faith?

That's secondary and different for everyone. We're saved by faith alone.

Nothing else.

 

[Rhamiel]

faith without works is dead, the Bible says so

 

[JustAsIam77]

faith without works is dead, the Bible says so

How many good works must we achieve to earn our salvation?

 

[Rhamiel]

no one earns salvation, if it was possible to earn it then Jesus would not have had to die. I am just pointing out that the Bible says that without good works faith will die. Jesus will say to people that He was hungry and they did not feed Him, naked and they did not clothe Him, He said whatever you do to the least of those among you you do also to Him. He will then say to them that He does not know them

 

[JustAsIam77]

no one earns salvation, if it was possible to earn it then Jesus would not have had to die. I am just pointing out that the Bible says that without good works faith will die. Jesus will say to people that He was hungry and they did not feed Him, naked and they did not clothe Him, He said whatever you do to the least of those among you you do also to Him. He will then say to them that He does not know them

Who is the judge of our good works? Of course we want to please our heavenly Father with works. But perhaps the least of believers in works shall still be saved thru faith alone...no?

 

[Rhamiel]

i have a date, I will get back to this latter, great thread by the way

 

[Jim47]

faith without works is dead, the Bible says so

This is correct:
James 2:26 As the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without deeds is dead.

no one earns salvation, if it was possible to earn it then Jesus would not have had to die. I am just pointing out that the Bible says that without good works faith will die. Jesus will say to people that He was hungry and they did not feed Him, naked and they did not clothe Him, He said whatever you do to the least of those among you you do also to Him. He will then say to them that He does not know them

This is also correct:
Eph 2:4 But because of his great love for us, God, who is rich in mercy,
Eph 2:5 made us alive with Christ even when we were dead in transgressions—it is by grace you have been saved.
Eph 2:6 And God raised us up with Christ and seated us with him in the heavenly realms in Christ Jesus,
Eph 2:7 in order that in the coming ages he might show the incomparable riches of his grace, expressed in his kindness to us in Christ Jesus.
Eph 2:8 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God—
Eph 2:9 not by works, so that no one can boast.

But good works do not earn us God's favor. We receice grace soley because of God's rich mercy and it is by His same mercy that He calls His children to a saving faith.

Who is the judge of our good works? Of course we want to please our heavenly Father with works. But perhaps the least of believers in works shall still be saved thru faith alone...no?

Jesus will be the sole judge of all at judgement day. The Father has made Him Judge because of the sacrifice that Jesus made. A sacrifice that we will not fully understand or appreciate this side of heaven.

 

[MrJim]

That's secondary and different for everyone. We're saved by faith alone.

Nothing else.

Eph 2:8 –Eph 2:10 NKJV
For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, not of works, lest anyone should boast. For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them.

..not seeing any "alone" in there...

How many good works must we achieve to earn our salvation?

"Earn" may not be the right word~~"maintain" perhaps could work better..salvation is a gift~yet like any gift given if not properly maintained will soon no longer be what was given. If you are given a horse, or a car, or a piece of jewelry or maybe a cake, if not cared for will become ruined..."shipwrecked" is a word St. Paul used...and yet it is beyond just a checklist of "works" to be accomplished. Note here:

Phil 3:7 –Phil 3:14 KJV
But what things were gain to me, those I counted loss for Christ. Yea doubtless, and I count all things but loss for the excellency of the knowledge of Christ Jesus my Lord: for whom I have suffered the loss of all things, and do count them but dung, that I may win Christ,
And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith:
That I may know him, and the power of his resurrection, and the fellowship of his sufferings, being made conformable unto his death; If by any means I might attain unto the resurrection of the dead. Not as though I had already attained, either were already perfect: but I follow after, if that I may apprehend that for which also I am apprehended of Christ Jesus. Brethren, I count not myself to have apprehended: but this one thing I do, forgetting those things which are behind, and reaching forth unto those things which are before, I press toward the mark for the prize of the high calling of God in Christ Jesus.

Obviously not a "good works" checklist, but certainly more than just a "sinner's prayer". Now it can be explained that this passage is only speaking about sanctification or somesuch...

Getting "saved" isn't the hard part~staying that way, well that's where the work is There are so many warnings in the NT about falling away that it is difficult to dismiss them all. So here is where it becomes "works salvation"~hey when I was a Calvinist I used to say the same thing, so I know where you are coming from~yet these "works" are of great importance-they were created for us to do. My mennonite friends speak of an "Obedient-Love Relationship" with God, which seems to somewhat fit in with all the people that aren't Calvinist so I can live with that...

Breakdown though happens when we judge each other over this. I went through a spell after my deconversion from Calvinism (I became one after a few years in the mennonite church and remained one for 10 years) where I viewed it as a great heresy on par with mormonism. I've gotten over that and still value some teachings from there...but I got over the judging part (I think). Now I do remember Sproul & Horton and the boys pounding hard that "Sola Fide" is a hinge upon which the entire church moves~that anything other than that is heretical..."another gospel". You as a Calvinist (by your icon) have to weigh the seriousness of this in fellowshipping with those of us that do not believe the same way. Are you prepared to say that if one disagrees with Sola Fide they believe another gospel?

Remember, you asked for opinions...

 

[JustAsIam77]

Eph 2:8 –Eph 2:10 NKJV
For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, not of works, lest anyone should boast. For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them.

..not seeing any "alone" in there...



"Earn" may not be the right word~~"maintain" perhaps could work better..salvation is a gift~yet like any gift given if not properly maintained will soon no longer be what was given. If you are given a horse, or a car, or a piece of jewelry or maybe a cake, if not cared for will become ruined..."shipwrecked" is a word St. Paul used...and yet it is beyond just a checklist of "works" to be accomplished. Note here:

Phil 3:7 –Phil 3:14 KJV
But what things were gain to me, those I counted loss for Christ. Yea doubtless, and I count all things but loss for the excellency of the knowledge of Christ Jesus my Lord: for whom I have suffered the loss of all things, and do count them but dung, that I may win Christ,
And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith:
That I may know him, and the power of his resurrection, and the fellowship of his sufferings, being made conformable unto his death; If by any means I might attain unto the resurrection of the dead. Not as though I had already attained, either were already perfect: but I follow after, if that I may apprehend that for which also I am apprehended of Christ Jesus. Brethren, I count not myself to have apprehended: but this one thing I do, forgetting those things which are behind, and reaching forth unto those things which are before, I press toward the mark for the prize of the high calling of God in Christ Jesus.

Obviously not a "good works" checklist, but certainly more than just a "sinner's prayer". Now it can be explained that this passage is only speaking about sanctification or somesuch...

Getting "saved" isn't the hard part~staying that way, well that's where the work is There are so many warnings in the NT about falling away that it is difficult to dismiss them all. So here is where it becomes "works salvation"~hey when I was a Calvinist I used to say the same thing, so I know where you are coming from~yet these "works" are of great importance-they were created for us to do. My mennonite friends speak of an "Obedient-Love Relationship" with God, which seems to somewhat fit in with all the people that aren't Calvinist so I can live with that...

Breakdown though happens when we judge each other over this. I went through a spell after my deconversion from Calvinism (I became one after a few years in the mennonite church and remained one for 10 years) where I viewed it as a great heresy on par with mormonism. I've gotten over that and still value some teachings from there...but I got over the judging part (I think). Now I do remember Sproul & Horton and the boys pounding hard that "Sola Fide" is a hinge upon which the entire church moves~that anything other than that is heretical..."another gospel". You as a Calvinist (by your icon) have to weigh the seriousness of this in fellowshipping with those of us that do not believe the same way. Are you prepared to say that if one disagrees with Sola Fide they believe another gospel?

Remember, you asked for opinions...[/quote

Thanks my friend for your opinion.

Yes , I believe in Sola Fide.

I believe we're saved by faith alone and only faith alone.

I greatly appreciate your posts.

 

[MrJim]

I woke up during the night, around 2:30, and thought about this thread~crazy, huh? This verse kept going through my mind:

For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, not of works, lest anyone should boast.

The thought that came to mind is the nature of faith~one time action or life-long process. Am I saved through faith as a "bang" instant now thing or does it keep going on. Guess I become more Catholic all the time since I see salvation as something of an ongoing process...and yet, Calvinists believes similar, though viewed as sanctification instead, yet if a "believer" shows no change and no fruit, or would return to their vomit, would say "they weren't saved to begin with". And while we'd disagree on that particular point, the issue is the "now" and not the "back then", and that a believer needs to be walking the path of righteousness. I think we're not as far apart as the extremists on each side would make it out to be...matters little what was done 5 or 55 years ago~what's going on right now? Am I doing good? Am I walking with God? Am I loving my neighbor as myself?

 

[Jim47]

I woke up during the night, around 2:30, and thought about this thread~crazy, huh? This verse kept going through my mind:

The thought that came to mind is the nature of faith~one time action or life-long process. Am I saved through faith as a "bang" instant now thing or does it keep going on. Guess I become more Catholic all the time since I see salvation as something of an ongoing process...and yet, Calvinists believes similar, though viewed as sanctification instead, yet if a "believer" shows no change and no fruit, or would return to their vomit, would say "they weren't saved to begin with". And while we'd disagree on that particular point, the issue is the "now" and not the "back then", and that a believer needs to be walking the path of righteousness. I think we're not as far apart as the extremists on each side would make it out to be...matters little what was done 5 or 55 years ago~what's going on right now? Am I doing good? Am I walking with God? Am I loving my neighbor as myself?

It does happen kind of like a bang, as the moment we come to faith in Jesus we are saved, but sanctification is a life long process where God purifies our faith and draws us closer to Him.

This verse shows that Jesus can save even those of little faith:
Mt 12:20 A bruised reed he will not break,
and a smoldering wick he will not snuff out,
till he leads justice to victory.


or if you want to read the same verse from Isaiah:

Isa 42:1 "Here is my servant, whom I uphold,
my chosen one in whom I delight;
I will put my Spirit on him
and he will bring justice to the nations.
Isa 42:2 He will not shout or cry out,
or raise his voice in the streets.
Isa 42:3 A bruised reed he will not break,
and a smoldering wick he will not snuff out.
In faithfulness he will bring forth justice;
Isa 42:4 he will not falter or be discouraged
till he establishes justice on earth.
In his law the islands will put their hope."

Our salvation is always a bit of a mystery to us as we can not completely understand it. It makes no sence for an all powerful and mighty God to send His Son into the world and suffer for a people who have shown nothing but scorn to His Word, but its none the less true. That is whay the scholars of this age can not come to faith, because like creation it makes no sence to them. Faith is fact that only thosed chosen can believe.

 

[JustAsIam77]

I woke up during the night, around 2:30, and thought about this thread~crazy, huh? This verse kept going through my mind:

The thought that came to mind is the nature of faith~one time action or life-long process. Am I saved through faith as a "bang" instant now thing or does it keep going on. Guess I become more Catholic all the time since I see salvation as something of an ongoing process...and yet, Calvinists believes similar, though viewed as sanctification instead, yet if a "believer" shows no change and no fruit, or would return to their vomit, would say "they weren't saved to begin with". And while we'd disagree on that particular point, the issue is the "now" and not the "back then", and that a believer needs to be walking the path of righteousness. I think we're not as far apart as the extremists on each side would make it out to be...matters little what was done 5 or 55 years ago~what's going on right now? Am I doing good? Am I walking with God? Am I loving my neighbor as myself?

Thanks again for a very well spoken reply.

I think you're somehow clinging to being saved because of how you live your life. Works based salvation is denying the supreme sacrifice our Lord gave for us to be washed clean of our inherent sin. There's nothing we can do to increase our worth in our heavenly Fathers eyes.

Only faith in Jesus saves us. Not ourselves or our lame attempt to please Him.

God bless

 

[Rhamiel]

"Earn" may not be the right word~~"maintain" perhaps could work better..salvation is a gift~yet like any gift given if not properly maintained will soon no longer be what was given.

well said

 

[MrJim]

Thanks again for a very well spoken reply.

I think you're somehow clinging to being saved because of how you live your life. Works based salvation is denying the supreme sacrifice our Lord gave for us to be washed clean of our inherent sin. There's nothing we can do to increase our worth in our heavenly Fathers eyes.

Only faith in Jesus saves us. Not ourselves or our lame attempt to please Him.

God bless

There are so so many warnings about falling away in the NT that I can no longer hold to an OSAS~salvation is a continuing process...obedience is not lame

 

[JustAsIam77]

There are so so many warnings about falling away in the NT that I can no longer hold to an OSAS~salvation is a continuing process...obedience is not lame

Who will be the judge of obedience? If we have a lustfull thought at any moment... if we sin in any way from day to day... it has to be covered by Christ's sacrifice. Otherwise it was in vain. We can't be perfect day to day.

Falling away completely from ones faith is another subject.

 

[Hentenza]

There are so so many warnings about falling away in the NT that I can no longer hold to an OSAS~salvation is a continuing process...obedience is not lame

Hey Jim,

I have often thought about the very thing you wrote (I guess is my old Catholic upbringing) but then there is another verse that comes to mind.

2 Corinthians 5:17-19
17Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation; the old has gone, the new has come! 18All this is from God, who reconciled us to himself through Christ and gave us the ministry of reconciliation: 19that God was reconciling the world to himself in Christ, not counting men's sins against them. And he has committed to us the message of reconciliation.

I have been wrestling with the question of when do we become a new creation? It seems illogical and contradictory that if we become righteous in the eyes of the Lord at the moment of justification (faith in Christ only) that we would not become a new creation then. If we become a new creation at the moment of justification and since God will not count our sins against us, then we can not loose salvation, however, if we do not become a new creation at the moment of justification then we are still the same person that we were before accepting Christ as our Lord and Savior and we can then loose salvation. Maybe I am just over thinking this.