How do we KNOW knowledge?

[Oncedeceived]

" it has to be true or false which arises from we being created in God's image which is where we believe logic originates"--Oncedeceived

The christian worldview is that humanity was created supernaturally by God. Where is the evidence for this claim?

Our innate ability of logic.

 

[Oncedeceived]

Let's clarify here...

We have opposing view on the idea that you using logical fallacies can still support your case? Is that what you are saying?

No KTS, that is not what I am saying.

 

[bhsmte]

No KTS, that is not what I am saying.

It may be beneficial for you to clarify then, what are you saying?

 

[bhsmte]

Our innate ability of logic.

And this would be the same innate logic the majority of the worlds population uses to not believe in Christianity.

 

[Oncedeceived]

The fact that it works is very strong evidence that it is right.

We couldn't.

I am not disputing the facts that 1. we have the ability to use reason and logic and 2. the universe operates on predictable laws.

I agree that:

1. We have the ability to use reason and logic.
2. The universe operates on predictable principles.
3. Science is based on the application of reason and logic (and a few other things) on the predictable operation of the universe.

Well we seem to agree on the foundation of the principles. So we can move on.

No idea. It may be an emergent property of the universe. There could be an infinite number of universe, all with different properties, and we are in a universe with properties that happen to be predictable and within the range required for human life because if they were different, humans couldn't exist to observe it.

Does this emergent property include logic in your hypothetical idea?

Don't change the subject. We are talking about how we can verify knowledge as true. If you want to talk about why the universe has the properties it does, that's a different discussion, and you can start your own thread for it. (If you do, you can take your response to my previous point there as well.)

Its within the subject. How could we know anything was true without the ordered universe to begin the discussion of how we verify knowledge is true.

Such tools are the best tools we have to perform the investigation of the universe.

So we agree that logic and an ordered and comprehensible universe are necessary to verify what we know. Good.

Not in this thread I don't. That's a discussion for a different thread. Don't derail this one.

How do you separate how we can verify what is true if we don't consider how it is even possible? Are you claiming that we must just a priori assume the logic and order?

No it isn't. It's pointing out that if we have an idea which accurately describes the way the universe works, then the idea's ability to provide accurate descriptions is evidence that it is correct.

You said I wonder why and I asked if you did wonder why.

You: And yet the predictions science makes are accurate, I wonder why?
​

Me: Do you wonder why?

You: Because they are right?

Me: Begging the question.

They make predictions that are accurate...why...because they are right.

That is begging the question. They also make predictions that are not accurate. The point is that there is indeed a true and false and that is how we know knowledge.

Do you think that an incorrect idea is capable of providing accurate descriptions?

Yes. Otherwise theories wouldn't be accepted and then falsified.

Yes, but that is irrelevant.

No, it is not.

Do you know of any time in the history of Science that something has been shown to be false and afterwards is still accepted to be true?

My point was that only a fool would believe something that is false IF HE KNOWS IT HAS BEEN SHOWN TO BE FALSE AND YET HE STILL BELIEVES IT ANYWAY.

I would agree. My point was that even if it can be demonstrated to be true as in scientific theories, it has been later shown to be false. So at the time it was thought that the something was true and demonstrated to be true but then later was shown to be false when more information was available.

You missed my point.

A statement that is true - says, stars are roughly spherical because of the effects of gravity, although other factors like the rate of spin can alter the spherical shape to a degree - is going to be true, no matter if there are beings capable of recognising this or not.

How did I miss your point?

Because we are not so arrogant as to think that we are required for things to be the way they are.

What does arrogance have to do with necessity?

 

[Oncedeceived]

And this would be the same innate logic the majority of the worlds population uses to not believe in Christianity.

Appeal to popularity. Fallacious argument.

 

[Loudmouth]

Our innate ability of logic.

Why is that evidence of being created by a deity?

Couldn't a deity create us with an inability to use logic?

 

[Oncedeceived]

Why is that evidence of being created by a deity?

Couldn't a deity create us with an inability to use logic?

You are leaving the Christian worldview to suppose an element that is very well spelled out within it.

 

[bhsmte]

Appeal to popularity. Fallacious argument.

Well, you say we have "innate logic" and this is why the Christian worldview is logical, correct?

So, why would 2/3 of the worlds population disagree with you? Is their innate logic flawed and yours the correct one?

 

[bhsmte]

You are leaving the Christian worldview to suppose an element that is very well spelled out within it.

Does a religion spelling something out make it true?

 

[Loudmouth]

You are leaving the Christian worldview to suppose an element that is very well spelled out within it.

The claim is that if humans were created by a deity that we would necessarily have innate logic. Where is your evidence for this claim?

 

[Oncedeceived]

The claim is that if humans were created by a deity that we would necessarily have innate logic. Where is your evidence for this claim?

We have logic.

 

[bhsmte]

We have logic.

Does everyone have this "innate logic" or just some people?

 

[Paul of Eugene OR]

We have logic.

But do we have flawless logic?

 

[bhsmte]

But do we have flawless logic?

Kind of my point here.

Once has been going on about; "innate logic" we all have that was clearly given to us by our creator in her view point and this logic is used to determine the Christian world view is consistent with this logic.

Which brings me to a simple question; if we all have this innate logic and that is what is used to determine the Christian world view is logical, then why do 2/3 of the worlds population come to a different conclusion?

Seems to me, there is something else in play here than logic.

 

[essentialsaltes]

"The claim is that if humans were created by a deity that we would necessarily have innate logic. Where is your evidence for this claim?"

We have logic.

Not very good logic, it seems to me.

Q
Therefore, P implies Q

 

[Oncedeceived]

The claim is that if humans were created by a deity that we would necessarily have innate logic. Where is your evidence for this claim?

My claim is that logic is better explained in the Christian worldview.

In the Christian worldview the claim is made that we are able to use logic and reason. We are intelligent beings made in the image of God. That is the claim. The evidence is that we are equipped with logic and are intelligent Beings.

 

[Loudmouth]

My claim is that logic is better explained in the Christian worldview.

Where is your evidence?

In the Christian worldview the claim is made that we are able to use logic and reason. We are intelligent beings made in the image of God. That is the claim. The evidence is that we are equipped with logic and are intelligent Beings.

That would be a circular argument. That is not a logical argument.

 

[Loudmouth]

We have logic.

You have demonstrated that you don't understand logic which puts your whole claim into question.

"We believe that Leprechauns create rainbows, and our evidence is rainbows."

 

[bhsmte]

My claim is that logic is better explained in the Christian worldview.

In the Christian worldview the claim is made that we are able to use logic and reason. We are intelligent beings made in the image of God. That is the claim. The evidence is that we are equipped with logic and are intelligent Beings.

You can't avoid the obvious; why do so many then, not use this logic to agree with the Christian world view?