How do We Know if We are In Him?

How do we know if we are in him?

  • By keeping the word that we heard from the beginning.

    Votes: 14 77.8%
  • There is another way.

    Votes: 4 22.2%

  • Total voters
    18

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Looking back, we can see that Jesus' coming was prophesied in the OT, yes.
And it's certainly true that God had provided a Saviour before we knew that we needed one.
But the OT was not about salvation through Jesus - they had no concept of him.

Here is just one example which clearly refutes this misunderstanding. There are many more in the TaNaK; but I thought it best that you see it in Messiah's own words.

(CLV) Jn 8:56
Abraham, your father, exults that he may become acquainted with My day, and he was acquainted with it and rejoiced."
 
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Strong in Him

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Really? So repentance has nothing to do with obedience to YHWH?

We'll have to agree to disagree on that one.

The Gospel is not "repent and be circumcised".
As you can't argue against the BIB you chose to focus on the first word and are trying to imply I don't believe in repentance.
Poor show.

When we are saved we seek obedience to YHWH. Our peers don't have to pressure us.

Neither Jesus nor the early church taught circumcision, never mind salvation by circumcision.
I don't know where "peer pressure" comes into it - that's Scripture.

Exactly the true teachers taught that we mist be circumcised to keep the law. The false teachers were putting the cart before the horse. They didn't even keep the law; but keeping the law doesn't save us. Rather, keeping the law is the result of being saved.

That's not what those verses say;
"Some men .... were teaching 'unless you are circumcised ..... you cannot be saved'."
THAT is what the apostles were disputing. Those men were wrong - circumcision is not required before a person can be saved.

Yahshua taught the Torah. Circumcision is Torah.

Jesus didn't teach circumcision or adherence to food and hygiene laws.

He taught men who were already circumcised; because they believed YHWH's word. Yahshua didn't have to teach them the basics.

Neither did he tell them to teach Gentiles "the basics".
He didn't tell the Roman centurion that he wouldn't heal his servant because he was uncircumcised; he commended him for his faith. In fact Jesus said that this Gentile had more faith than he had found in Israel.

How do we know that we are in him? By keeping our Father's word

I am in him, and I can't be circumcised - same goes for all women.
 
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Strong in Him

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Here is just one example which clearly refutes this misunderstanding. There are many more in the TaNaK; but I thought it best that you see it in Messiah's own words.

(CLV) Jn 8:56
Abraham, your father, exults that he may become acquainted with My day, and he was acquainted with it and rejoiced."

Sorry, but it seems that you are misunderstanding what I am saying.

The Christian Gospel - that Jesus laid down his perfect life as a sacrifice for our sins, that he was raised again, ascended to the Father and sent his Holy Spirit to live in us - was not taught until Jesus came and started his ministry.
Jesus' coming, ministry, suffering, betrayal, death, resurrection etc were all prophesied in various places in the OT; yes. But until Jesus came, lived, taught and died, people did not see how those prophecies came together. They were fulfilled in Jesus.
Moses did not teach Jesus's coming and the Christian Gospel; he taught obedience to the law. David did not teach the Christian Gospel; he hadn't heard it.

That is what I am saying, the Christian Gospel was not taught in the OT.
Neither was circumcision taught in the NT.
 
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The Gospel is not "repent and be circumcised".
As you can't argue against the BIB you chose to focus on the first word and are trying to imply I don't believe in repentance.
Poor show.


I didn't imply that you don't believe in repentance; anymore than I believe that you implied that I don't believe in the Gospel; but apparently we have differing beliefs in what repentance means.

I believe that repentance includes obedience to YHWH's word. I don't believe that means we get to pick and choose what parts of his word we would like to obey. If this is not what you believe; then again, we will have to agree to disagree.

Thank you for sharing your opinion.
 
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pshun2404

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(CLV) 1Jn 2:1
My little children, these things am I writing to you that you may not be sinning. And if anyone should be sinning, we have an Entreater with the Father, Jesus Christ, the Just.

How many Pastors have you heard open up their sermons with this verse?


(CLV) 1Jn 2:2
And He is the propitiatory shelter concerned with our sins, yet not concerned with ours only, but concerned with the whole world also.

(CLV) 1Jn 2:3
And in this we know that we know Him, if we should be keeping His precepts.

(CLV) 1Jn 2:4
He who is saying that "I know Him" and is not keeping His precepts, is a liar, and the truth of God is not in this one.

(CLV) 1Jn 2:5
Yet whoever may be keeping His word, truly in this one the love of God is perfected. In this we know that we are in Him:

(CLV) Mt 22:36
"Teacher, what is the great precept in the law?"

(CLV) Mt 22:37
Now He averred to him, "You shall be loving the Lord your God with your whole heart, and with your whole soul, and with your whole comprehension.

(CLV) 1Jn 5:3
For this is the love of God, that we may be keeping His precepts. And His precepts are not heavy,


(CLV) 1Jn 2:6
he who is saying that he is remaining in Him ought also himself to be walking according as He walks.

(CLV) 1Jn 2:7
Beloved, I am not writing a new precept to you, but an old precept, which you had from the beginning. The old precept is the word which you hear.
We know because He is in us (Romans 8:9) and how can this be discerned? You shall know them by their fruits! They become more like Him over time (conformed to His image). When he sits in judgment we get a hint of what we become (Matthew 25:31-46) because there are many in the church doing all the churchianity stuff (the five unwise virgins) whom Jesus says He NEVER knew....
 
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Strong in Him

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I didn't imply that you don't believe in repentance; anymore than I believe that you implied that I don't believe in the Gospel;

I hope I didn't imply that you don't believe the Gospel, but if that is how my words came across, I apologise.

I believe that repentance includes obedience to YHWH's word. I don't believe that means we get to pick and choose what parts of his word we would like to obey.

Except that not all of his word was written TO us.
Some is personal advice - like Paul telling Timothy to drink wine because of his frequent illnesses (the water wasn't that pure, then.) Or asking someone to bring his cloak and his scrolls when they visited. Obviously he doesn't mean that all Christians should start drinking, and Paul has died so has no need of a cloak even if we could find it.
Paul also instructs us on how to care for our slaves, and says that it is better to marry than to burn with passion. This does not mean that we need to kidnap people and make them our slaves, nor does it mean that a man should marry a woman just to satisfy his sexual needs.
It's not a matter of "picking and choosing" whether or not to obey Scripture; it's about studying it properly and wisely discerning the difference between commands and advice, history and allegory, prophesy and parables and so on.

If you took all of Scripture literally and at face value then you would find it to be contradictory.
Example: your insistence on circumcision and Paul's teaching that circumcision is nothing and does not save.

If this is not what you believe; then again, we will have to agree to disagree.

Like I said, if you feel that this is something that you have to do, then you have to do it.
But it is not correct to teach that Christians have to be circumcised/obey the law before they are able to be in Christ.
 
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Except that not all of his word was written TO us.
Some is personal advice - like Paul telling Timothy to drink wine because of his frequent illnesses (the water wasn't that pure, then.) Or asking someone to bring his cloak and his scrolls when they visited. Obviously he doesn't mean that all Christians should start drinking, and Paul has died so has no need of a cloak even if we could find it.
Paul also instructs us on how to care for our slaves, and says that it is better to marry than to burn with passion. This does not mean that we need to kidnap people and make them our slaves, nor does it mean that a man should marry a woman just to satisfy his sexual needs.
It's not a matter of "picking and choosing" whether or not to obey Scripture; it's about studying it properly and wisely discerning the difference between commands and advice, history and allegory, prophesy and parables and so on.

I believe that I'm a son of Abraham. Therefore I receive the blessings of YHWH's promise to Abraham. Therefore I'm in the covenant that YHWH made with Abraham.

If you took all of Scripture literally and at face value then you would find it to be contradictory.
Example: your insistence on circumcision and Paul's teaching that circumcision is nothing and does not save.

That's not what Paul said. Paul said circumcision is keeping the commandments of YHWH. If you read Paul's writings in context; it eliminates the contradiction. If we read a verse that fails the Deuteronomy 13 test; then we are probably reading it out of context.

Like I said, if you feel that this is something that you have to do, then you have to do it.
But it is not correct to teach that Christians have to be circumcised/obey the law before they are able to be in Christ.

If you disagree with John; then we will just have to agree to disagree.

Thanks for sharing your opinion.
 
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Strong in Him

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I believe that I'm a son of Abraham. Therefore I receive the blessings of YHWH's promise to Abraham. Therefore I'm in the covenant that YHWH made with Abraham.

Fine.

I believe I am a child of God, made so through Christ and his death on the cross. Therefore I am in the New covenant that he came to bring. Therefore I have every spiritual blessing in him, Ephesians 1:3.


That's not what Paul said. Paul said circumcision is keeping the commandments of YHWH.

Galatians 5:2-4
Mark my words! I, Paul, tell you that if you let yourselves be circumcised, Christ will be of no value to you at all. 3 Again I declare to every man who lets himself be circumcised that he is required to obey the whole law. 4 You who are trying to be justified by the law have been alienated from Christ; you have fallen away from grace.

If you read Paul's writings in context; it eliminates the contradiction.

Paul starts his letter to the Galatians by expressing surprise, even hurt, that they should abandon the Gospel that they received from him and accept "another Gospel", Galatians 1:6.
He says that this "Gospel" is no Gospel at all, and says, quite emphatically, that if anyone preaches a Gospel that is contrary to the one that he preached to them, that person should be sent to hell, Galatians 1:8-9.
So evidentially Paul had preached the Good News in Galatia, and they had received it and believed.

What was the Gospel that Paul had preached to them? It was not something that Paul had made up himself, it was revealed to him by God, Galatians 1:11-12. Paul says that the Galatians had heard of his former way of life, in Judaism, when he persecuted the church of God and tried to destroy it, Galatians 1:13. But then God appeared to him, revealed Jesus to him and called him to preach to the Gentiles, Galatians 1:15-16. The story of Saul's conversion is in Acts of the Apostles 9, which also records how he preached that Jesus was the Messiah.
Paul explains in Galatians 2 how he later went to meet with the other apostles. This came about because some false brothers were trying to become part of their group, take away the freedom that they had in Christ and make them slaves, Galatians 2:4. This might be referring to the Council of Jerusalem in Acts of the Apostles 15, which came about because some false teachers were claiming that believers had to be circumcised to be saved, Acts of the Apostles 15:1. If it isn't referring to that, then clearly there was another meeting of believers that met to discuss the same issue.

Paul then spend the rest of his letter talking about faith and the law, and whether keeping the law was part of the Gospel.
In Galatians chapter 3 Paul says that he clearly preached Christ crucified to them, Galatians 3:1 and asks whether they received the Spirit by obeying the law or by believing what he preached, Galatians 3:2? He says that they are foolish and asks if they think that their own human efforts - keeping the law - will save them, Galatians 3:3-5. He then gives the example of Abraham who was considered righteous because he believed. He says that those who observe the law are cursed, Galatians 3:10, that the righteous are those who live by faith, Galatians 3:11, that the law is not based on faith, Galatians 3:12 and that Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law, Galatians 3:13.

Paul then says that God gave a promise to Abraham and his seed, and that seed (singular) is Christ, Galatians 3:15-18. The law was given, he says, because of men's sins UNTIL the Seed, who is Christ, came, Galatians 3:19. Now that faith has come they are no longer under the supervision of the law, Galatians 3:25, but that they are heirs of God through faith in Christ. Christ, Galatians 3:26. Even though they are heirs, he says, they had to be under guardians for a time - for a while they were no better than slaves even though they were heirs. But when the time was right God sent his Son to redeem those who were under the law, Galatians 4:5, so that they could receive the full rights as sons. Paul also says in Romans 8:16-17 that we are children of God and heirs with Christ.

Paul then goes on to give another example in Galatians 4:21-31. He reminds them that Abraham had 2 sons; one by a slave woman and one by a free woman. The son of the slave woman, Ishmael, was born in the "ordinary way" (in fact Abraham got tired of waiting for God to fulfil his promise and decided to do something about it himself). Whereas the child of the free woman, Isaac, was born as a result of God's promise to Abraham and Sarah. Paul says that the Galatians were, and we are, children of the promise. (Read Matthew 1, Jesus was descended from Isaac, not Ishmael.)

Paul begins Galatians 5 by saying that they are free because Christ has set them free and they should not allow themselves to become slaves again, Galatians 5:1. In the Greek manuscripts there were no chapter divisions, so this verse follows straight on from the previous one. Then, Paul says "Mark my words, if you allow yourselves to be circumcised, Christ is of no value to you at all."

THIS is the context of Galatians 5:2 - it follows 4 chapters of Paul saying that those who preach the law as another Gospel are false teachers, that the law does not save and that we are set free from obedience to the law.
He asks them why he is being persecuted if he is still preaching circumcision, says that those agitators should go off and castrate themselves and reminds the Galatians again that they are free, Galatians 5:13. He writes about the fruit of the Spirit - fruit they should bear if they live by the Spirit and the Spirit is in them.
Paul ends chapter 6 by saying that even those who preach circumcision do not keep the whole law; they just want the Galatians to be circumcised so that they can "boast about the flesh"

This over view of Galatians does not lead me to conclude that Galatians 5:2 has been taken out of context - almost his entire letter is saying that they should not believe a false Gospel and put themselves under slavery to the law.

I don't know where John comes into it. I believe John and I believe Paul; I just don't agree with what you are saying.
 
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Gary K

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Sorry, but it seems that you are misunderstanding what I am saying.

The Christian Gospel - that Jesus laid down his perfect life as a sacrifice for our sins, that he was raised again, ascended to the Father and sent his Holy Spirit to live in us - was not taught until Jesus came and started his ministry.
Jesus' coming, ministry, suffering, betrayal, death, resurrection etc were all prophesied in various places in the OT; yes. But until Jesus came, lived, taught and died, people did not see how those prophecies came together. They were fulfilled in Jesus.
Moses did not teach Jesus's coming and the Christian Gospel; he taught obedience to the law. David did not teach the Christian Gospel; he hadn't heard it.

That is what I am saying, the Christian Gospel was not taught in the OT.
Neither was circumcision taught in the NT.

Actually that is not true. Read John 3 which is Jesus' interview with Nicodemus. Jesus is chiding Nicodemus because Nicodemus is a spiritual teacher in Israel and does not understand that he must be born again. If the experience of the new birth was not taught in the OT then Jesus had zero grounds to chide Nicodemus for not understanding the new birth. Jesus chiding Nicodemus for what he couldn't know would make Jesus a hypocrite.

David clearly understood the new birth and being given a changed heart. Psalm 51

Moses understood this too.
Deuteronomy 30:6 And the Lord thy God will circumcise thine heart, and the heart of thy seed, to love the Lord thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, that thou mayest live.
7 And the Lord thy God will put all these curses upon thine enemies, and on them that hate thee, which persecuted thee.
8 And thou shalt return and obey the voice of the Lord, and do all his commandments which I command thee this day.
9 And the Lord thy God will make thee plenteous in every work of thine hand, in the fruit of thy body, and in the fruit of thy cattle, and in the fruit of thy land, for good: for the Lord will again rejoice over thee for good, as he rejoiced over thy fathers:
10 If thou shalt hearken unto the voice of the Lord thy God, to keep his commandments and his statutes which are written in this book of the law, and if thou turn unto the Lord thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul.
11 ¶For this commandment which I command thee this day, it is not hidden from thee, neither is it far off.
12 It is not in heaven, that thou shouldest say, Who shall go up for us to heaven, and bring it unto us, that we may hear it, and do it?
13 Neither is it beyond the sea, that thou shouldest say, Who shall go over the sea for us, and bring it unto us, that we may hear it, and do it?
14 But the word is very nigh unto thee, in thy mouth, and in thy heart, that thou mayest do it.

Paul refers to this circumcision of the heart and and it's resulting change in the life.
Colossians 2:10 And ye are complete in him, which is the head of all principality and power:
11 In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ:
12 Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead.

Here's more on the new birth/circumcision of the heart out of the OT.

Deuteronomy 10:16 Circumcise therefore the foreskin of your heart, and be no more stiffnecked.

Jeremiah 4:3 ¶For thus saith the Lord to the men of Judah and Jerusalem, Break up your fallow ground, and sow not among thorns.
4 Circumcise yourselves to the Lord, and take away the foreskins of your heart, ye men of Judah and inhabitants of Jerusalem: lest my fury come forth like fire, and burn that none can quench it, because of the evil of your doings.

Jeremiah 9:25 ¶Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, that I will punish all them which are circumcised with the uncircumcised;*n11
26 Egypt, and Judah, and Edom, and the children of Ammon, and Moab, and all that are in the utmost corners, that dwell in the wilderness: for all these nations are uncircumcised, and all the house of Israel are uncircumcised in the heart.
It's interesting that the charge in verse 16 is exactly what Stephen charged the Jews with.

From Stephen's sermon to the Pharisees:
Acts 7:51 ¶Ye stiffnecked and uncircumcised in heart and ears, ye do always resist the Holy Ghost: as your fathers did, so do ye.

Why did Stephen say the above? Because the Pharisees refused to believe in Jesus and be born again. The new birth and circumcision of the heart are one and the same thing. So, therefore the gospel was taught in the OT for the circumcision of the heart was a well-known concept in the OT. The OT sacrificial system was an object lesson of the gospel
 
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Neogaia777

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All of them taught that obedience to the highest and higher law was the way, or at least was part of the way as in that's what we should all be aiming for or to or towards, etc, but also that the letter of the law was "no longer that way" and perhaps never truly was "the or that way" ever, etc...

The only way to fulfill it now is by following and seeking after the rules and laws of Love, and by walking in and trusting in the Spirit to primarily do it and complete it in you or for you, etc, and not by your own will or self effort, etc, and maybe even perhaps not ever even by your own will or self effort ever at all, etc, which is almost night opposite or nigh contrary to the OT law and OC ways, which we "assumed", etc, was "the way" back then, etc, by or through our own self will or self efforts, etc...

But it (the latter) is not the way, and is not the way now, and perhaps never was the true way ever, etc, especially from the very beginnning, etc...

Which is what all the teachers in the NT were trying to point out and/or teach and correct, etc, taking us back to the very beginning or before the letter of the law ever was, etc, also when people "just knew" from within, etc...

Observing the letter of the law too much, also leads to failure also, and in some cases can even cause you to even be disobedient sometimes also, etc, sometimes anyway, etc, like in the Pharisees cases, etc, which was something else, or some other things they (teachers in the NT) were trying to point out, etc, that that way was always destined to fail in your trying to obey it, at least, in the or that way in which you were trying to observe and/or obey it anyway, etc, and they wanted to point out that there was now a much more far better and much better much much more successful now "way" now, etc, but that it is not new but has always been from the beginning, etc, which is following and/or seeking after the rules and laws of Love, but only doing that only by walking in the Spirit only, etc, and trusting it/Him to do it fully, or fully complete it in you for you fully, etc...

That through your utter and complete dependence on Him, faith, hope, love, trust, etc, anyway, by that by that and that only and alone, etc, you would come to obey as a result, etc...

Anyway,

God Bless!
 
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Neogaia777

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All of them taught that obedience to the highest and higher law was the way, or at least was part of the way as in that's what we should all be aiming for or to or towards, etc, but also that the letter of the law was "no longer that way" and perhaps never truly was "the or that way" ever, etc...

The only way to fulfill it now is by following and seeking after the rules and laws of Love, and by walking in and trusting in the Spirit to primarily do it and complete it in you or for you, etc, and not by your own will or self effort, etc, and maybe even perhaps not ever even by your own will or self effort ever at all, etc, which is almost night opposite or nigh contrary to the OT law and OC ways, which we "assumed", etc, was "the way" back then, etc, by or through our own self will or self efforts, etc...

But it is not the way, and is not the way now, and perhaps never was the true way ever, etc, especially from the very beginnning, etc...

Which is what all the teachers in the NT were trying to point out and/or teach and correct, etc, taking us back to the very beginning or before the letter of the law ever was, etc, also when people "just knew" from within, etc...

Observing the letter of the law too much, also leads to failure also, which was something else they were trying to point out, etc, that that way was destined to fail in your trying to obey, and that there was now a much more far better and much better much much more successful now way, etc, but that it is not new but has always been from the beginning, etc, which following and/or seeking after the rules and laws of Love but only by walking in the Spirit, and trusting it/Him to do it fully, or fully complete it in you fully, etc...

Anyway,

God Bless!
They (the people or teachers in the NT) wanted it to be made very, very clear that they were not advocating sin or teaching disobedience, etc, just a much better and new (but yet not new) higher and superior (and much more effective in truly obeying all the rules and laws that were from the beginnning) anyway, much more better and much more effective and higher and superior "way" now, etc...

But that they were not in any way shape or form, ever advocating sin or teaching disobedience ever, etc...

But actually true obedience, etc...

A "better way to obey" basically, etc...

God Bless!
 
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HARK!

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All of them taught that obedience to the highest and higher law was the way, or at least was part of the way as in that's what we should all be aiming for or to or towards, etc, but also that the letter of the law was "no longer that way" and perhaps never truly was "the or that way" ever, etc...

The only way to fulfill it now is by following and seeking after the rules and laws of Love, and by walking in and trusting in the Spirit to primarily do it and complete it in you or for you, etc, and not by your own will or self effort, etc, and maybe even perhaps not ever even by your own will or self effort ever at all, etc, which is almost night opposite or nigh contrary to the OT law and OC ways, which we "assumed", etc, was "the way" back then, etc, by or through our own self will or self efforts, etc...

But it (the latter) is not the way, and is not the way now, and perhaps never was the true way ever, etc, especially from the very beginnning, etc...

Which is what all the teachers in the NT were trying to point out and/or teach and correct, etc, taking us back to the very beginning or before the letter of the law ever was, etc, also when people "just knew" from within, etc...

Observing the letter of the law too much, also leads to failure also, and in some cases can even cause you to even be disobedient sometimes also, etc, sometimes anyway, etc, like in the Pharisees cases, etc, which was something else, or some other things they (teachers in the NT) were trying to point out, etc, that that way was always destined to fail in your trying to obey it, at least, in the or that way in which you were trying to observe and/or obey it anyway, etc, and they wanted to point out that there was now a much more far better and much better much much more successful now "way" now, etc, but that it is not new but has always been from the beginning, etc, which is following and/or seeking after the rules and laws of Love, but only doing that only by walking in the Spirit only, etc, and trusting it/Him to do it fully, or fully complete it in you for you fully, etc...

That through your utter and complete dependence on Him, faith, hope, love, trust, etc, anyway, by that by that and that only and alone, etc, you would come to obey as a result, etc...

Anyway,

God Bless!

These folks did a pretty good job of fulfilling the law, before Yahshua was even born.

(CLV) Lk 1:5
There came to be, in the days of Herod, the king of Judea, a certain priest named Zechariah, of the routine of Abiah, and his wife, of the daughters of Aaron, and her name is Elizabeth.

(CLV) Lk 1:6
Now they were both just in front of God, going in all the precepts and just statutes of the Lord, blameless.

(CLV) Jb 1:1
There was a man in the land of Uz. Job was his name. This man was flawless and upright, fearing Elohim and keeping away from evil.
 
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Neogaia777

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These folks did a pretty good job of fulfilling the law, before Yahshua was even born.

(CLV) Lk 1:5
There came to be, in the days of Herod, the king of Judea, a certain priest named Zechariah, of the routine of Abiah, and his wife, of the daughters of Aaron, and her name is Elizabeth.

(CLV) Lk 1:6
Now they were both just in front of God, going in all the precepts and just statutes of the Lord, blameless.

(CLV) Jb 1:1
There was a man in the land of Uz. Job was his name. This man was flawless and upright, fearing Elohim and keeping away from evil.
You can, or some very, very few people can, or some people that are truly truly humble can, etc, anyway, some very very few people actually can keep the letter of the law, and be "blameless", according to that law, etc, and yet still not be considered "perfect" otherwise, etc, which is the calling in the NT, etc...

And as far as Job goes, it is way before the letter of the law, and nowhere does it say he (Job) was considered that by God by the letter of the or that law, etc, which didn't even exist yet then, etc...

But you just keep trying to go by strict adherence to only the letter of it only and your own will and strength only, etc, and just see how far you will get or who you will truly become, etc, cause my guess is that you will only wind up only like a NT Phariseee, who are our primary examples of what happens when you do that or try to do that, apart from considering the Spirit of it/them (those laws) that was from the beginnning of it/them, etc, or those laws, etc, and let's just see where you will get, or who you will truly become, or who you truly be like or end up just like in God's eyes in the end, etc...

Always walking in the Spirit, and truly knowing Love, is the only way to perfectly obey the highest law(s) that was from the beginnning perfectly, etc...

The NT teaches us a better and much better way to obey and truly obey, etc...

And if you are trying to come against that, or these words that I am right now speaking right now, etc, then you are truly lost, if you are coming against them right now, etc...

God Bless!
 
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HARK!

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You can, or some very, very few people can, people that are truly humble can, some very very few can keep the letter of the law, and be "blameless", according to that law,

Yahshua agrees.

(CLV) Mt 7:14
Yet what a cramped gate and narrowed way is the one leading away into life, and few are those who are finding it.
 
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Neogaia777

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Yahshua agrees.

(CLV) Mt 7:14
Yet what a cramped gate and narrowed way is the one leading away into life, and few are those who are finding it.
Glad we agree... As long as you know they were still not yet, and are still not yet (today) (for those today), are still not yet "perfect" yet perfectly still yet, according to the Spirit today, etc, cause for that, you need the teachings and Gospel message of the NT, etc...

For it will truly and fully complete you from what the OT/OC leaves off, which was not perfectly complete yet, and/or not done or fininshed all the way completely yet, but is only complete/finished, etc, with and/or in, or by, etc, only with the NT only yet, etc...

And I really do hope you have that, etc...

Anyway,

God Bless!
 
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HARK!

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Glad we agree... As long as you know they were still not yet, and are still not yet (today) (for those today), are still not yet "perfect" yet perfectly still yet, according to the Spirit today, etc, cause for that, you need the teachings and Gospel message of the NT, etc...

For it will truly and fully complete you from what the OT/OC leaves off, which was not perfectly complete yet, and/or not done or fininshed all the way completely yet, but is only complete/finished, etc, with and/or in, or by, etc, only with the NT only yet, etc...

And I really do hope you have that, etc...

Anyway,

God Bless!

Are you suggesting that Yahshua was barking out orders that no on can follow?

Matthew 5:48
Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.

If that's the case; I disagree.

It seems that Paul would too.

(CLV) Php 3:6
in relation to zeal, persecuting the ecclesia, in relation to the righteousness which is in law, becoming blameless.
 
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Neogaia777

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Are you suggesting that Yahshua was barking out orders that no on can follow?

Matthew 5:48
Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.

If that's the case; I disagree.

It seems that Paul would too.

(CLV) Php 3:6
in relation to zeal, persecuting the ecclesia, in relation to the righteousness which is in law, becoming blameless.
You can follow them, or live up to them, it's just not up to you to say when, etc, your/my/our only job is to try to always be practicing walking always in the Spirit as much as we can (until we truly and fully do) (by "practice" being the key words here, etc) and then our next duty is to fully know Love and follow that also, and the rules a laws of Love also, etc, then you will have a righteousness that far far exceeds the mere letter of the law, but that will not be by or because of you, nor dictated by you, etc, then the Spirit within you will have then caused you to be in the perfection or perfect state that He seeks, etc, but like I said, the "timing" is not up to you, nor is any of it ever up to you really, cause again like I said, our only job is walking in the Spirit, and walking in the Spirit always, if possible, etc, and fully coming to know Love fully, etc, and be it or be doing it fully, etc, for if you can do/be both of those perfectly and fully, then you will be perfect fully, and will have a righteousness that far exceeds that of the mere letter of the, or a, or any set of written down on paper, stone, or parchment, rules or laws, etc, etc, etc...

But by strict adherence to the letter of the law only, without at all the Spirit of it at all, etc, you will never attain to none or neither of it at all ever at all, etc...

God Bless!
 
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Neogaia777

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Are you suggesting that Yahshua was barking out orders that no on can follow?

Matthew 5:48
Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.

If that's the case; I disagree.

It seems that Paul would too.

(CLV) Php 3:6
in relation to zeal, persecuting the ecclesia, in relation to the righteousness which is in law, becoming blameless.
And you do realize that that verse you are qouting about Paul, etc, was talking about what he was or had attained to before the Perfect, or the Holy Spirit, had come, don't you...?

And that he was now seeking that which would exceed that now, or afterwards, or after that, don't you...?

Or wasn't it Jesus that told people that "if their righteousness didn't exceed that that was attained to by the Scribes and Pharisees, that they would in no way ever enter nor ever see the Kingdom of God", etc...?

Anyway,

Anyway, I am trying to tell you, in the very simplest terms I know how, how that is truly done exactly, etc...

Which is, walking in and with the Spirit always and continually and always, and fully knowing and doing and being Love always, etc...

Then you will have that righteousness that far exceeds the law, or the righteousness of the Scribes and Pharisees, etc...

Anyway,

God Bless!
 
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HARK!

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And you do realize that that verse you are qouting about Paul, etc, was talking about what he was or had attained to before the Perfect, or the Holy Spirit, had come, don't you...?

Do you really suppose that Paul "became" blameless while he was still persecuting the Ecclesia, persecuting Yahshua?



We'll have to agree to disagree on that one.
 
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Or wasn't it Jesus that told people that "if their righteousness didn't exceed that that was attained to by the Scribes and Pharisees, that they would in no way ever enter nor ever see the Kingdom of God"

Indeed he did.

Definition of righteous

1 : acting in accord with divine or moral law : free from guilt or sin
Definition of RIGHTEOUS

Sin is transgression of the law.
 
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