How do we explain New Testament writers taking Old Testament prophecies out of context?

[Polar Bear Quest]

I've wondered why for some time now who gave the authority to apostles to reinterpret old testament scriptures and take them out of context.

For instance, in Amos 9;11-12 the bible says:

11“In that day I will raise up the fallen booth of David,
And wall up its breaches;
I will also raise up its ruins
And rebuild it as in the days of old;

12That they may possess the remnant of Edom
And all the nations who are called by My name,”
Declares the LORD who does this.

However, in the new testament this passage in reinterpreted to mean something completely different by James in the book of Acts. Acts 15:16-18 reads:

13When they had finished speaking, James declared, “Brothers, listen to me! 14Simona has told us how God first visited the Gentiles to take from them a people to be His own. 15The words of the prophets agree with this, as it is written:

16‘After this I will return

and rebuild David’s fallen tent.

Its ruins I will rebuild,

and I will restore it,

17so that the remnant of men may seek the Lord,

and all the Gentiles who bear My name,

says the Lord who does these things

18that have been known for ages.’b

As anyone can see the passage is taken completely out of context in certain bits and portions are even added. This isn't the only example of this in the NT but one of the more glaring examples I've come across recently that I just didn't notice much earlier in my Christianity.

So what is the answer for this? Were the apostles given the right to reinterpret scripture? If that's the case is it possible certain prophecies may be fulfilled in an unexpected way?

 

[EastCoastRemnant]

More likely that we don't understand the prophesies as they were intended. For example, do we know what the "fallen booth of David is" or as James declares "his tent"? The mention of Edom also has figurative meaning as most prophetic language does.

 

[drjean]

Romans 15:

15 With this the words of the Prophets agree, just as it is written,

16 ‘After these things I will return,
And I will rebuild the tabernacle of David which has fallen,
And I will rebuild its ruins,
And I will restore it,

I don't see any conflict, what version are you viewing; did you quote the right verse?

 

[Dave-W]

More likely that we don't understand the prophesies as they were intended. For example, do we know what the "fallen booth of David is" or as James declares "his tent"? The mention of Edom also has figurative meaning as most prophetic language does.

Sorry East, I have to disagree.

All semetic languages have multiple layers of meaning that us with linear languages usually do not understand. Most of the Hebrew prophets used poetic forms which makes this even more the case.

But all of the NT writers understood that, and it would have made sense to their Aramaic speaking readers.

 

[EastCoastRemnant]

Sorry East, I have to disagree.

All semetic languages have multiple layers of meaning that us with linear languages usually do not understand. Most of the Hebrew prophets used poetic forms which makes this even more the case.

But all of the NT writers understood that, and it would have made sense to their Aramaic speaking readers.

You're not in disagreement, I probably didn't state it well enough. What I said about not understanding the prophetic language was for us today... I have no doubt they better understood these things in Christ's day. Just like there are some today that can better discern the symbols used in prophetic passages by searching the scriptures for their meaning as we are told to do... precept upon precept, here a little, there a little.

 

[Dave-W]

Ok. But without at least a moderate understanding of the various layers, that can be equally problematic.

And I see few if any (outside the Messianic community) even giving consideration to this.

 

[Hidden In Him]

I've wondered why for some time now who gave the authority to apostles to reinterpret old testament scriptures and take them out of context.

For instance, in Amos 9;11-12 the bible says:

However, in the new testament this passage in reinterpreted to mean something completely different by James in the book of Acts. Acts 15:16-18 reads:

As anyone can see the passage is taken completely out of context in certain bits and portions are even added. This isn't the only example of this in the NT but one of the more glaring examples I've come across recently that I just didn't notice much earlier in my Christianity.

So what is the answer for this? Were the apostles given the right to reinterpret scripture? If that's the case is it possible certain prophecies may be fulfilled in an unexpected way?

He's re-applying a passage to an even later prophetic "fulfillment," if you will, though more symbolic than literal. Many prophecies have what you would call a dual fulfillment, and some have multiple fulfillments, as there are partial fulfillments, literal (or full) fulfillments, and "spiritual" fulfillments, for lack of a better term.

For instance, the Lord prophesied that He would deliver His people from bondage to Egypt into he promised land (Exodus 3:7-8). Everything in Numbers, Joshua and other books records the literal fulfillment of this promise. But the New Testament writers borrowed from the Exodus and Wilderness events as prophetically pointing to a spiritual fulfillment: The exodus of the saints of God from bondage to sin into "the promised land" of the coming kingdom (1 Corinthians 10:1-12, 1 Peter 1:1-25).

They did this with all sorts of Old Testament prophesies and events, such as drawing parallels between Noah's time and theirs, in that the judgment of God was coming and only a relative few would be saved and the rest would perish (1 Peter 3:18-22).

It's something God uses to demonstrate the depths of His wisdom.

 

[BryanJohnMaloney]

I've wondered why for some time now who gave the authority to apostles to reinterpret old testament scriptures and take them out of context.

For instance, in Amos 9;11-12 the bible says:



However, in the new testament this passage in reinterpreted to mean something completely different by James in the book of Acts. Acts 15:16-18 reads:



As anyone can see the passage is taken completely out of context in certain bits and portions are even added. This isn't the only example of this in the NT but one of the more glaring examples I've come across recently that I just didn't notice much earlier in my Christianity.

So what is the answer for this? Were the apostles given the right to reinterpret scripture? If that's the case is it possible certain prophecies may be fulfilled in an unexpected way?

The Amos of the Apostles was the Amos found in the Septuagint (LXX). The LXX has Amos 9:11-12 (LXX) as the following:

In that day I will raise up the tabernacle of David that is fallen, and will rebuild the ruins of it, and will set up the parts thereof that have been broken down, and will build it up as in the ancient days: that the remnant of men, and all the Gentiles upon whom my name is called, may earnestly seek me, saith the Lord who does all these things.

Look familiar? It's the specific text of the New Testament. This is the case many times in the New Testament. The Apostles and even Christ's renderings were closer to the LXX than to the Masoretic text, which is now accepted as the "Hebrew Bible". Interestingly, the Masoretic Text was compiled centuries after the Apostolic era, perhaps allowing for some selection among different manuscripts.

 

[BryanJohnMaloney]

An article on how the LXX fits better with the New Testament than does the Masoretic text:

All Scripture Is Inspired by God. . .: Thoughts on the Old Testament Canon

 

[1watchman]

I've wondered why for some time now who gave the authority to apostles to reinterpret old testament scriptures and take them out of context.

For instance, in Amos 9;11-12 the bible says:
However, in the new testament this passage in reinterpreted to mean something completely different by James in the book of Acts. Acts 15:16-18 reads:
As anyone can see the passage is taken completely out of context in certain bits and portions are even added. This isn't the only example of this in the NT but one of the more glaring examples I've come across recently that I just didn't notice much earlier in my Christianity.

So what is the answer for this? Were the apostles given the right to reinterpret scripture? If that's the case is it possible certain prophecies may be fulfilled in an unexpected way?

It is important that we take "all the counsel of God", and be "rightly dividing the Word of Truth" (certainly in a reliable Bible version). The Apostles were ordained by God as His emmisaries to their essential work, and they did not (nor would God allow them to) bring forth error. God holds us responsible for obedience and yielding to His counsel, which will be opened and made clear in Heaven one day ---perhaps soon. The enemy of our souls (Satan) is always working to cause us to doubt God (as he did to Adam and Eve and others down through history). Let us not go down that road of challenging God and His immutable Word.

 

[Yekcidmij]

All semetic languages have multiple layers of meaning that us with linear languages usually do not understand. Most of the Hebrew prophets used poetic forms which makes this even more the case.

How many multiple layers do they have? And how did you arrive at that number? And what do you mean that it's not a "linear" language?

In any case, as was pointed out, it seems they were quoting from the LXX.

 

[Dave-W]

How many multiple layers do they have?

Officially, 4. Peshat, Derash, Remez, and Sod.


But if you take into account the paleo Hebrew alphabet, IMO that adds a fifth.

 

[Dave-W]

And what do you mean that it's not a "linear" language?

You will have to talk to a linguist for that answer.

 

[Norbert L]

I've wondered why for some time now who gave the authority to apostles to reinterpret old testament scriptures and take them out of context.

For instance, in Amos 9;11-12 the bible says:



However, in the new testament this passage in reinterpreted to mean something completely different by James in the book of Acts. Acts 15:16-18 reads:



As anyone can see the passage is taken completely out of context in certain bits and portions are even added. This isn't the only example of this in the NT but one of the more glaring examples I've come across recently that I just didn't notice much earlier in my Christianity.

So what is the answer for this? Were the apostles given the right to reinterpret scripture? If that's the case is it possible certain prophecies may be fulfilled in an unexpected way?

It seems to me when looking at the world through the eyes of someone who was a disciple living 2000 years ago, you're going to assess that present Geo-political landscape in real terms and not read prophecies as they apply to a future that has not happened yet. "So when they had come together, they asked him, “Lord, will you at this time restore the kingdom to Israel?” He said to them, “It is not for you to know times or seasons that the Father has fixed by his own authority." Acts 1:6-7

I would say the apostles understood that there was no conquering and possessing of Edom going on anytime soon by their people, knowing that they were still being held captive by the the Roman Empire. So they're going re-tell that prophecy being fully aware that they don't know it all, while being truthful with the world events surrounding their mission.

Our problem with the scriptures is we also don't have a complete picture of what's going on in the theological mind of someone living 2000 years ago. Here's a .pdf that goes into what we do know in far greater detail. http://www.michaelsheiser.com/TheNakedBible/Amos9Acts15.pdf

 

[BryanJohnMaloney]

You will have to talk to a linguist for that answer.

Funny, but linguists do not have any such category as a "linear" language. Please point us to some professional linguistic writings for this concept.

 

[BryanJohnMaloney]

It seems to me when looking at the world through the eyes of someone who was a disciple living 2000 years ago, you're going to assess that present Geo-political landscape in real terms and not read prophecies as they apply to a future that has not happened yet. "So when they had come together, they asked him, “Lord, will you at this time restore the kingdom to Israel?” He said to them, “It is not for you to know times or seasons that the Father has fixed by his own authority." Acts 1:6-7

I would say the apostles understood that there was no conquering and possessing of Edom going on anytime soon by their people, knowing that they were still being held captive by the the Roman Empire. So they're going re-tell that prophecy being fully aware that they don't know it all, while being truthful with the world events surrounding their mission.

Our problem with the scriptures is we also don't have a complete picture of what's going on in the theological mind of someone living 2000 years ago. Here's a .pdf that goes into what we do know in far greater detail. http://www.michaelsheiser.com/TheNakedBible/Amos9Acts15.pdf

OOOOOOOOOOOOOR, maybe you could just pick up a copy of the Septuagint (LXX) and find the exact words of the NEW Testament in the LXX version of Amos. Really, it's right there. You don't have to go through all kinds of silly mental acrobatics. The Apostles (and Christ) referred to the text of the LXX multiple times in the New Testament. It's not hard to follow when you know that, and you eliminate a lot of silly idle speculation.

 

[Dave-W]

In any case, as was pointed out, it seems they were quoting from the LXX.

Maybe, or maybe not.

There were several competing manuscript families of the OT then and they may have quoted the Hebrew Proto-Septuagint. It could be also that that when the NT texts were assembled and distributed in Greek, that the scribes used the LXX as it was familiar to greek speaking audiences.

 

[Dave-W]

Funny, but linguists do not have any such category as a "linear" language. Please point us to some professional linguistic writings for this concept.

https://www.hoshanarabbah.org/pdfs/heb_grk.pdf

Hebrew – Conceptual Approach vs. Greek/Roman Western – Linear

pardes: the four levels of jewish interpretation of their scriptures

 

[BryanJohnMaloney]

Those are all dogmatic sites. NONE of them are linguists, NOT A SINGLE ONE. So, try to HONESTLY answer my request: Point me to REAL LINGUISTS, not occultists, who actually use this concept of "linear" language. Otherwise, you are just being dishonest.

 

[BryanJohnMaloney]

Maybe, or maybe not.

There were several competing manuscript families of the OT then and they may have quoted the Hebrew Proto-Septuagint. It could be also that that when the NT texts were assembled and distributed in Greek, that the scribes used the LXX as it was familiar to greek speaking audiences.

Evidence? The simplest sensible explanation was that the Apostles were using the LXX and this was faithfully recorded. Now, we can make up all kinds of silly little fantasies to deny it, but show some EVIDENCE for your idle and baseless speculation.

What substantive differences can you cite between this "Hebrew Proto-Septuagint" and the LXX? Please give citations. What citations can you give to prove your other wild speculation, that the LXX text was inserted later by "the scribes". Show your evidence. Now, it's true that none of the Apostles wrote or dictated down "I used the Septuagint", but the fact that SO MANY of the references within the NT match the Septuagint exactly and don't match the Masoretic still needs an explanation, and the explanation that the Apostles used the Septuagint is less excessively convoluted and far less of a nutjob conspiracy theory than making up some alleged "scribes" who all conspired to substitute in the LXX for the Masoretic text.

Why do so many American Christians worship the Masoretic text, anyway? Yes, I mean WORSHIP. Why? Why is there an iron-clad Faith that the Masoretic text, which was compiled AFTER the Apostolic era, must be the only proper OT?