How do we become perfect?

SnuP · Oct 19, 2003

How does a christian become perfect.

Matthew 5
48 Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.

How do we keep a command that all of those Brokendown Unenlighteded Terminally Tormented souls say is impossible.

If you are a BUTT soul please don't be offended.
Oh and don't responded either.

altya · Oct 19, 2003

By growing spiritually – die to self and get renewed by the Word of God. Sound easy but it takes a long time.

Die to self

Matthew 16:24 Then Jesus said to His disciples, "If anyone wishes to come after Me, he must deny himself, and take up his cross and follow Me .

With my walk with God I have found that there are many that wishes to ‘come after God’ but don’t know how. Maybe because of a lack of knowledge many tries but in their own power and it’s too difficult to follow Jesus and then backslide. Christians need the knowledge and practical advice about ‘how’ to deny themselves.

God’s goal for believers is to bring each one to the point of being like Christ. God expects us always to move in that direction and expects believers to grow continually toward the point of matching the standards of Christ. If our flesh rules our lives it’s impossible for us to follow the leading of the Holy Spirit

Wrong ideas of denying ourselves:

1) Think our flesh is a demon and go for deliverance;
2) Attempting to get rid of the works of the flesh by seeking the prayers of popular preachers;
3) Following some formula, like to fast and pray to become spiritual.

A person cannot simply quote scripture, “I deny myself”, and expect it to happen. There are no shortcuts to die to self, although God promises it if we are earnest and get right at the task. This will help us to deny ourselves.

Put off, this is an action – STOP with bringing forth works of the flesh. Make your choice.
Ephesians 4:22 That ye put off concerning the former conversation the old man, which is corrupt according to the deceitful lusts;

While you ‘put off’ start renew your mind with the word of God . This is where our strength to say no, will come from and its also an action.23 And be renewed in the spirit of your mind;

The song – You are the Potter and I am the clay; mould me and make me ………, is what happen with us. You put off the old man and God create a new man for you. Is that not marvelous?
24 And that ye put on the new man, which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness.

Andrew · Oct 19, 2003

by relying on the grace of God. ie let go and let God.

Hey SnuP glad to see you again. where have you been my friend?

SavedByGrace3 · Oct 19, 2003

SnuP said:
How does a christian become perfect.

Matthew 5
48 Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.

How do we keep a command that all of those Brokendown Unenlighteded Terminally Tormented souls say is impossible.

If you are a BUTT soul please don't be offended.
Oh and don't responded either.

Hey Snup! I have not seen you for a while!!!

This verse, and the entire "Sermon on the mount" was designed specifically to bring the hearers to the place where they would see their need to be born again. It was the last word and last nail in the coffin of those who wanted to be saved by their own means. I think Jesus in this one saying was cutting to the chase and laying it down in plain speech:
"Ok, if you cannot do this then you are lost: Be as perfect as God in heaven is perfect.... period."

This was designed to bring people to the place where they would see their absolute "lostness", and their need to believe the gospel and be born again.

Brother John · Oct 19, 2003

SnuP said:
How does a christian become perfect.

Matthew 5
48 Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.

How do we keep a command that all of those Brokendown Unenlighteded Terminally Tormented souls say is impossible.

If you are a BUTT soul please don't be offended.
Oh and don't responded either.

I heard Charles Stanley say that if you study the Greek that Matt 5:48 was written in that the sense in which the "Be ye perfect" is not talking about a finished product or state of perfection, but a process.
Sort of "Be ye perfecting, even as I Am perfect."

I think it speaks to ongoing sanctification through obedience and striving toward God.... working out our salvation with fear and trembling.

Your Brother
John

Rafael · Oct 19, 2003

Brother John said:
I heard Charles Stanley say that if you study the Greek that Matt 5:48 was written in that the sense in which the "Be ye perfect" is not talking about a finished product or state of perfection, but a process.
Sort of "Be ye perfecting, even as I Am perfect."

I think it speaks to ongoing sanctification through obedience and striving toward God.... working out our salvation with fear and trembling.

Your Brother
John

Amen

SnuP · Oct 19, 2003

Charles Standly is not always right. If we are to be perfect in the same way that God is perfect then the words have to mean the same thing. Growth is not the same as maturity. Yes the word has to meanings, but it is qualified in the sentence by the standard of God. Standly's responce is an atempt to reationalize his position against the the obvious. God did not write His word to cause condemnation. And if this scripture cannot be understood with out a study of the greek, then the simpler of us are doomed to misunderstand. Fortunately, this is another example of the intellectuals trying to complicate the word of God in order to justify their flesh.

Again the question will be asked of those who are not comfused, how do we atain the perfection of God?

SpiritPsalmist · Oct 20, 2003

The only way that I know of to become like someone else is to spend time with them. I would think that would be the same as with God. The more time we, He and I spend together the more obvious it becomes that one of us has to change and we can bet our bottom dollar it aint gonna be Him.

The more time I spend with Him the more I see in me that is not like Him yet becomes like Him as a result of being in His presense.

wonder111 · Oct 20, 2003

it seems to me, the more I get rid of my own ridiculous thoughts and understanding and rely on faith, the more I see and feel perfection.

Brother John · Oct 20, 2003

SnuP said:
Charles Standly is not always right. If we are to be perfect in the same way that God is perfect then the words have to mean the same thing. Growth is not the same as maturity. Yes the word has to meanings, but it is qualified in the sentence by the standard of God. Standly's responce is an atempt to reationalize his position against the the obvious. God did not write His word to cause condemnation. And if this scripture cannot be understood with out a study of the greek, then the simpler of us are doomed to misunderstand. Fortunately, this is another example of the intellectuals trying to complicate the word of God in order to justify their flesh.

Again the question will be asked of those who are not comfused, how do we atain the perfection of God?

Very true my friend, Mr. Stanley is Not infallible... but I believe that the exegesis from the original greek is fairly straightforward.
Exegetical study of the Word is VERY fruitful, very.
I'm not an intellectual
I'm not trying to complicate a thing...

you seem a bit harsh on my reply...
what gives?
Your Brother
John

Rafael · Oct 26, 2003

I've always thought that we are only perfect "in" Christ, and that as long as we live in this flesh we have to keep it under by walking in His Spirit. Therefore to be perfect would be to be born again and abide within vine, as Diskalos mentioned earlier.

SnuP · Oct 26, 2003

Brother John said:
Very true my friend, Mr. Stanley is Not infallible... but I believe that the exegesis from the original greek is fairly straightforward.
Exegetical study of the Word is VERY fruitful, very.
I'm not an intellectual
I'm not trying to complicate a thing...

you seem a bit harsh on my reply...
what gives?
Your Brother
John

Please don't be offended, that is just how I talk. I'm very straight forward, and to the point.

The word in question, as I said before, has two meanings. One refering to the jorney, and the other refering to completeness. This is the reason that I say that in the context of the statement, there is an equilizations of the two parts. "be perfect in the same way, equaling the way, as God is perfect". Accepting the other definitions, ignores the grammatical content of the sentence, in favor of some doctring, and becomes confusing to the reader. Thus I said that God does not confuse people.

With out trying to demean Charles Stanley, I have found his measages to frequently contain the theme of human inadequeacy. But scripture doesn't worry about our abilities, only God's. In God's ability, I can be as perfect as God is, simply by releasing my control.

SnuP · Oct 26, 2003

If I follow Christ's example, and only do what I see the Father doing, then how can I be anything but perfect?

SpiritPsalmist · Oct 26, 2003

SnuP said:
If I follow Christ's example, and only do what I see the Father doing, then how can I be anything but perfect?

True. . .Very True.

Brother John · Oct 27, 2003

SnuP said:
If I follow Christ's example, and only do what I see the Father doing, then how can I be anything but perfect?

That's a fine point, but NO ONE can do "only" what they see the Father doing, no one but Jesus.
We all, like the Apostle Paul, do even that which should not do and don't do that which we should.
There is not one perfect, no not one.
Therefore there is a process of perfection that God will complete after this sojourn of 'life' is over.

just my thoughts
Your Brother
John

Brother John · Oct 27, 2003

SnuP said:
Please don't be offended, that is just how I talk. I'm very straight forward, and to the point.

The word in question, as I said before, has two meanings. One refering to the jorney, and the other refering to completeness. This is the reason that I say that in the context of the statement, there is an equilizations of the two parts. "be perfect in the same way, equaling the way, as God is perfect". Accepting the other definitions, ignores the grammatical content of the sentence, in favor of some doctring, and becomes confusing to the reader. Thus I said that God does not confuse people.

With out trying to demean Charles Stanley, I have found his measages to frequently contain the theme of human inadequeacy. But scripture doesn't worry about our abilities, only God's. In God's ability, I can be as perfect as God is, simply by releasing my control.

I'm not offended, but I did think you were. Glad that all's OK.

Also: you state that the use of the word "as" in this scripture is the same as "equaling the way"... a comparative word. I disagree. I believe that this is a very old way of speaking meaning more like 'because'... which in this context gives more meaning. "Be ye perfect, because your father in Heaven is perfect."

Something to think about.
Either way

OUR side wins.
Your Brother
John

SnuP · Oct 27, 2003

Brother John said:
That's a fine point, but NO ONE can do "only" what they see the Father doing, no one but Jesus.
We all, like the Apostle Paul, do even that which should not do and don't do that which we should.
There is not one perfect, no not one.
Therefore there is a process of perfection that God will complete after this sojourn of 'life' is over.

just my thoughts
Your Brother
John

What makes Him so special, on earth He had the same problems that we have. It not like He had any special powers. (I'm being serious) The only thing that Jesus had that enabled Him to do what He did, was His relationship with His Dad.

if we are in Him and He is in us then we will do the same works that He did. If He said it then it must be true.

SnuP · Oct 27, 2003

Brother John said:
I'm not offended, but I did think you were. Glad that all's OK.

Also: you state that the use of the word "as" in this scripture is the same as "equaling the way"... a comparative word. I disagree. I believe that this is a very old way of speaking meaning more like 'because'... which in this context gives more meaning. "Be ye perfect, because your father in Heaven is perfect."

Something to think about.
Either way

OUR side wins.
Your Brother
John

Even still, it haveing to remember to that it actually becoming perfect as apposed to the way it is written that makes this whole thing confusing. I take scripture at face value, if it becomes confusing, then I wonder who is sending the interpretation. When God sends the revelation, it is illuminated, and I don't have to remember how I figured it out. Or rely upon a communtary to remind me. It still make more sence, straight foward.

And why not just believe that God can over come all of your flesh and make you into what He wants? Why does He have to kill you first?

Like I said, I perfer to follow Jesus' example.

Brother John · Oct 27, 2003

SnuP said:
What makes Him so special, on earth He had the same problems that we have. It not like He had any special powers. (I'm being serious) The only thing that Jesus had that enabled Him to do what He did, was His relationship with His Dad.

if we are in Him and He is in us then we will do the same works that He did. If He said it then it must be true.

I think that the fully God and fully man part makes Jesus very special.
He did have the same problems we have, but he Never sinned... we have and always will sin.
There's LOTS more that makes Jesus way specially: For instance the fact that he is GOD, we aren't. His mission (Messiah) was unique and was greater than ours or any that will follow after us and therefore his "equiping" was all that much greater.
There are even old testament prophecies concerning him. He's mentioned in almost all books of the Bible, from Genesis to Revelation.
He had a perfect knowledge of God the Father and God the Holy Spirit.
We can't live a perfect life, that's why we have no justification in and of ourselves, it is only through Jesus Christ that we are justified by faith.

Good discussion.
Your Brother
John

lady in waiting · Oct 28, 2003

I think the only time we will be perfict is when we are in Heaven!

How do we become perfect?

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