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How do non-Catholics explain Eucharistic miracles, such as bleeding, and Marian...

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Sword of the Lord

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...apparitions, such as Fatima. Eucharistic bleeding miracles, that are confirmed with science? I also recently read in OBOB about a certain saint, that on the celebration of his feast day, every single year, a vial of his blood liquifies before the congregation; the one time it didn't liquify, in 1980, there was an earthquake that killed a lot of people in the region in which this miracle takes place.

Then there's also a bleeding Eucharist miracle that was scientifically tested. The Eucharist fell to the floor, where it began to bleed. Testing was positive for a damaged human heart...

Just curious how non-Catholics reconcile these things. And of course, Mary's wish for Russia to convert with her apparition at Fatima apparently came to pass with the Russian Orthodox Church.
 

Optimax

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How do non-Catholics explain Eucharistic miracles, such as bleeding, and Marian...

It is best explained for exactly what it is.

A demonic manifestation that draws attention away from Jesus toward something false.

:)
 
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Sword of the Lord

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They're going to the Eucharist FOR Jesus, though.

You never hear about these miracles in Orthodoxy, perhaps because the body is mixed with the blood, and they're extremely close to Catholics. And Anglicans and Lutherans believe in the real presence, but we never have bleeding miracles. So are you saying the RCC is demonic?
 
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Rhamiel

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what I have heard from most is either

1 the Catholic Church is demonic
2 the Catholic Church is filled with poor, uneducated and superstitious people who get worked up into mass hallucinations or are easily taken in by conmen

or the most charitable and least frequent explanation I hear from Protestants
3 "God knows that you guys go in for that kinda stuff so that is why the members of your church are given visions of Mary"
this would be from mainline Protestants who hold the "branch theory" of all the different, and contradictory, denominations being of equal authority, authenticity, and dignity

most Protestants just try not to think about this stuff too much, as you can tell by the amount of traffic this thread has
 
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Lion King

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They're going to the Eucharist FOR Jesus, though.

You never hear about these miracles in Orthodoxy, perhaps because the body is mixed with the blood, and they're extremely close to Catholics. And Anglicans and Lutherans believe in the real presence, but we never have bleeding miracles. So are you saying the RCC is demonic?

trap.jpg
 
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Tigger45

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After experiencing the power of Christ in the Eucharist at an EO Divine Liturgy I have no doubt God can and does operate through the Eucharist when properly administered and received by faith which in my opinion would or could include Catholicism.
 
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Sword of the Lord

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Franny: Most Protestants do not believe in Marian apparitions. One would also have to wonder why someone believes in Marian apparitions and is Protestant, instead of Catholic or Orthodox, or to lesser extents, Anglican or Lutheran, and venerating her. But that's not the point of the thread. I'm trying to find a logical answer to how thousands of witnesses and scientific verification is wrong; because I have some issues with Catholicism, but if Catholicism is producing miracles, I'd be crazy to not work past them.
 
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Franny50

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If Protestants believe Mary Is the mother of God,then why is it impossible for her to perform a miracle,when the Apostles performed miracles in Jesus's name.I am Catholic and believe there is a place for Mary in Christian worship as long as our Lord comes first.As for your question,I do not believe that the evidence of these apparitions can be disputed when there are tens of thousands of witnesses and scientific evidence.
 
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Optimax

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There is coming a time on the planet when a person with their "prophet" and "priest" will perform the same type of "apparitions" and even more astonishing ones.

That too will be demonic and deceive the millions that will witness them.

Those millions will be forced to accept a "mark" that will enable them to buy, sell and trade.

However all those witnesses will not make what they witnessed of the Lord.

It will be demonic as are the apparitions you are deceived by.
 
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Fireinfolding

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most Protestants just ignore them and do not think about them too much
they pass them off as either a con or something demonic and then go on to the next topic


Hi Rham, how are you? I personally don't chase those things down. Our God made the universe, parts the Red sea and raises the dead, its no marvel that He can do a miracle. You really cant speak against one when and where there is one. It is what it is. Some are skeptical of its source, because after all it does speak of such things coming from another source altogether and folks marveling after the same too. I mean, you cant be too careful. Especially if there shall arise that which shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they (by the same) shall deceive the very elect. So I always feel its far better not putting so much merit in such things. Just for a safeguard.

But if someone who could not see from birth can suddenly see, Id rejoice with that person and thank God for that miracle as I would for someone who was lame and could now walk. Even as God wrought special miracles by the hands of Paul, so that from his body were brought unto the sick handkerchiefs or aprons, and the diseases departed from them, and the evil spirits went out of them. Such special miracles as these through Paul was to the profit of others. They were healed, something good came to those touched by the very same.

But some of them today seem to come off more like a circus sideshow. With no real point to them. At least in my own opinion. Like tales from the crypt or something. I mean, if concrete starts bleeding, or the carved images start shedding tears what am I supposed to make of something like that? What is God through this image speaking to me? What exactly can I thank God for in that? I mean I could just say, "wow, that's a great trick" as I have said the same while watching some of the best magicians in the world perform far more captivating things. The latter being obvious trickery (even as we know it is). And they are pretty good at what they do (in that very thing) too. But none of us believe God is the author of that, but it can still be somewhat impressive (to say the least).

Certain things are impressive, others miraculous, some even unexplainable by science (whether that is in or outside the realm of the church). But I do try to keep things in perspective.

So I don't deny miracles I do believe in them because God can indeed do miracles.

Deceiving spirits can also perform miracles, so a miracle can be of either source.

Now by what source I do not know (with this blood thing) but the taking the blood of the saints into vials to be used as some kind of magic eight ball before a congregation just seems strange to me.

And that's just how it comes off to me and so I am distrusting of the same.

Only because whatever unexplainable miracle (at the first) which came by the same blood (in its liquefying) is now become some kind of a sign in a vial. Whether of good or bad fortune to follow. And even that come about by whatever date the blood hadn't liquefied upon. Its become something to look unto (by which) something can be predicted. That bad things will come to pass if the blood of this saint doesn't liquefy or good things will come to pass if/when it does (that sort of thing). Just looking unto this vial of someone elses blood (for a sign) to anticipate what wonders come to pass (that in a nutshell)

So it just seems to me as a thing which could be used as a tool for "mass delusion" (no pun intended for "mass") there. But given someone pulls this vial out (up in front) with all eyes looking unto it (to watch what happens to blood) with every person in anticipation (of it liquefying) creeps me out.

Just doesn't sit well with me. Which doesn't mean it wont sit well with others (I understand).

I don't like to speak against a miracle when I am not absolutely certain of the source because I do believe there can be more then one source. So it is what it is (regardless). If someone else feels is of God then you will typically offend them if you share a different opinion. And if you dare to express that opinion (and say exactly why) they will typically fight you and attest to the fact that it is a miracle (bringing the scientists into the equation) etc. Which (again) you might not argue with.

So someone might get the impression that these things get ignored (but that doesn't mean some of us haven't thought about it). Or have no good reason (of our own) to feel we should reject it. Even if it baffles the scientists.

But you just cant say anything against it being a miracle (even though you may stand in doubt the source of it).
 
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