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the difference is you're speaking of an event that's past. I'm speaking of events coming up, whether they exist or not.i didn't eat my dessert until after my baby was born.
I didn't have sex until after my baby was born
I didn't go to the store until after my baby was born.
Gee, why did I even MENTION the store or dessert.
You can't prove that I WENT or ATE.
I just wanted to add extra goofy words in there.
I don't go to the store or eat dessert OR have sex..
The Bible was speaking the same tense as I was.the difference is you're speaking of an event that's past. I'm speaking of events coming up, whether they exist or not.
I might not see you until tomorrow. Doesn't mean I will, doesn't mean I won't.
My second set were constructed in the same exact way as the passage.Except the verse wherein this construction is contained is also in the past.
"Until" circumscribes the duration of an action, and while it technically leaves the state of the action after the "until" undefined, outside of very technical logical writing the choice to say that I didn't do something until a point implies that I didn't do something only until that point. For instance, I think we would all recognize "I didn't kill him until noon" as an admission of guilt, even though on a technicality it isn't.
OH, I'm sorry. I was confused. (nothing new there lol)Yes, I wasn't responding to you, I was agreeing; we posted at the same time.
It is probably the most economic way that anyone could state in Greek, that Jesus birth was not the result of sexual intercourse. That is what the Gospel writer is telling us. He is not delving into the intimacies of Joseph and Mary's relationship which have absolutely nothing to do with the Gospel. Can you think of anything written in the Gospels which is unnecessary or redundant for knowledge leading to salvation?The Bible was speaking the same tense as I was.
So I was just using your post to share my findings.
To show that it's illogical to presume that God put
that there for no reason ...
And I didn't "eat my dessert" until after I had brought forth my firstborn.
and I didn't "use my fishing boat", until after I had brought forth my "first" born.
and didn't know her sexually until she had brought forth her firstborn son.
Not sure why I'd mention desserts and boats since they never happen even
in the future.
God musta goofed up this one time?
More likely, you've been having desserts on your fishing boat.The Bible was speaking the same tense as I was.
So I was just using your post to share my findings.
To show that it's illogical to presume that God put
that there for no reason ...
And I didn't "eat my dessert" until after I had brought forth my firstborn.
and I didn't "use my fishing boat", until after I had brought forth my "first" born.
and didn't know her sexually until she had brought forth her firstborn son.
Not sure why I'd mention desserts and boats since they never happen even
in the future.
God musta goofed up this one time?
It is probably the most economic way that anyone could state in Greek, that Jesus birth was not the result of sexual intercourse. That is what the Gospel writer is telling us. He is not delving into the intimacies of Joseph and Mary's relationship which have absolutely nothing to do with the Gospel. Can you think of anything written in the Gospels which is unnecessary or redundant for knowledge leading to salvation?
You're right, God musta goofed up!
Agreed, there is nothing inherent in the word that says "And after this, Joseph and Mary had sex". But there doesn't need to be. Because "until", or εως specifies that something did or, in this case, did not happen before a certain event took place.
It does indeed say nothing about what happened afterwards, which leaves everyone who isn't painted into a corner thinking "Well, what happened afterwards? Since nothing else is specified, it makes sense to assume that it was "business as usual" in a marriage".
<...The rest of the post was addressed to others...>
If folk want to believe that Mary and Joseph enjoyed sexual relations throughout their married years they will do so but they will be doing so on the basis of a guess, a conjecture, a presumption and not because any passage of scripture ever actually says that they did.
Without the reference to Jesus' birth, what you have suggested would be revealing intimacy details completely irrelevant to the Gospel.I would assume the most economic way would have been "did not know her sexually, full stop."
Just the same as those who believe they didn't. And those who believe they did have more to base their guesses on than those who believe they didn't.
Protoevangelium of James said:4. And, behold, an angel of the Lord stood by, saying: Anna, Anna, the Lord hath heard thy prayer, and thou shalt conceive, and shall bring forth; and thy seed shall be spoken of in all the world. And Anna said: As the Lord my God liveth, if I beget either male or female, I will bring it as a gift to the Lord my God; and it shall minister to Him in holy things all the days of its life. And, behold, two angels came, saying to her: Behold, Joachim thy husband is coming with his flocks. For an angel of the Lord went down to him, saying: Joachim, Joachim, the Lord God hath heard thy prayer Go down hence; for, behold, thy wife Anna shall conceive. And Joachim went down and called his shepherds, saying: Bring me hither ten she-lambs without spot or blemish, and they shall be for the Lord my God; and bring me twelve tender calves, and they shall be for the priests and the elders; and a hundred goats for all the people. And, behold, Joachim came with his flocks; and Anna stood by the gate, and saw Joachim coming, and she ran anti hung upon his neck, saying: Now I know that the Lord God hath blessed me exceedingly; for, behold the widow no longer a widow, and I the childless shall conceive. And Joachim rested the first day in his house.
...
8. And her parents went down marvelling, and praising the Lord God, because the child had not turned back. And Mary was in the temple of the Lord as if she were a dove that dwelt there, and she received food from the hand of an angel. And when she was twelve years old there was held a council of the priests, saying: Behold, Mary has reached the age of twelve years in the temple of the Lord. What then shall we do with her, test perchance she defile the sanctuary of the Lord? And they said to the high priest: Thou standest by the altar of the Lord; go in, and pray concerning her; and whatever the Lord shall manifest unto thee, that also will we do. And the high priest went in, taking the robe with the twelve bells into the holy of holies; and he prayed concerning her. And behold an angel of the Lord stood by him, saying unto him: Zacharias, Zacharias, go out and assemble the widowers of the people, and let them bring each his rod; and to whomsoever the Lord shall show a sign, his wife shall she be. And the heralds went out through all the circuit of Judaea, and the trumpet of the Lord sounded, and all ran.
9. And Joseph, throwing away his axe, went out to meet them; and when they had assembled, they went away to the high priest, taking with them their rods. And he, taking the rods of all of them, entered into the temple, and prayed; and having ended his prayer, he took the rods and came out, and gave them to them: but there was no sign in them, and Joseph took his rod last; and, behold, a dove came out of the rod, and flew upon Joseph's head. And the priest said to Joseph, Thou hast been chosen by lot to take into thy keeping the virgin of the Lord. But Joseph refused, saying: I have children, and I am an old man, and she is a young girl. I am afraid lest I become a laughing-stock to the sons of Israel. And the priest said to Joseph: Fear the Lord thy God, and remember what the Lord did to Dathan, and Abiram, and Korah; how the earth opened, and they were swallowed up on account of their contradiction. And now fear, O Joseph, lest the same things happen in thy house. And Joseph was afraid, and took her into his keeping. And Joseph said to Mary: Behold, I have received thee from the temple of the Lord; and now I leave thee in my house, and go away to build my buildings, and I shall come to thee. The Lord will protect thee.
Or maybe the most economical way to say he didn't know her WHILEIt is probably the most economic way that anyone could state in Greek, that Jesus birth was not the result of sexual intercourse.
I think men goofed up and are too proud to change it.That is what the Gospel writer is telling us. He is not delving into the intimacies of Joseph and Mary's relationship which have absolutely nothing to do with the Gospel. Can you think of anything written in the Gospels which is unnecessary or redundant for knowledge leading to salvation?
You're right, God musta goofed up!
More likely, you've been having desserts on your fishing boat.
I guess you believe the Gospels give us unnecessary intimate details of peoples' personal lives which do not pertain to salvation? Can you perhaps provide some other examples where the Gospel writers do this?Or maybe the most economical way to say he didn't know her WHILE
she was pregnant....just like it says..?
Without the reference to Jesus' birth, what you have suggested would be revealing intimacy details completely irrelevant to the Gospel.
Examples?There are arguably hundreds of facts with roughly equal Gospel irrelevancy throughout the gospels.
Preserving the knowledge that Mary remained a virgin doesn't even bring sex into the picture. There is no intimacy to be exposed.And since Mary and Joseph's sex or lack of it was allegedly important enough that a valid tradition concerning it was preserved throughout early church history, it's fairly problematic to suggest the church of the first century was respecting the privacy of intimacy details while simultaneously passing these details down in tradition.
From the same chapter, all of verse 19 explaining Joseph's intention to divorce Mary. It makes the story flow and helps the narrative, but it's strictly not any more of a core gospel truth than, say, the duration of the virginity of Mary.Examples?
Which means the Bible wouldn't be exposing anything by omitting "until she gave birth to a son."Preserving the knowledge that Mary remained a virgin doesn't even bring sex into the picture. There is no intimacy to be exposed.
Which means the Bible wouldn't be exposing anything by omitting "until she gave birth to a son."
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