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Luther considered us Catholics; he considered his (our) work as going back to what the Catholic Church originally was. He also strongly disliked the name "Lutheran", and always rejected it.
We Lutherans do not consider ourselves Protestants at all. Anglicans and Lutherans have always been "different" from the "typical" Protestants.
And to answer the question, why I'm Lutheran and I don't convert: I'm Lutheran because I believe in the real presence, the Bible, and I'm conservative, among many other things. I have yet to convert because I'm trying to discern what's what.
I'm not defending apparitions of Mary. I'm trying to discern the truth about them. This thread has become "the RCC is evil and apparitions are a hoax or demonic". The two other largest and ancient faiths also claim apparitions, and also believes as the RCC believes. I'm trying to find a logical reason why apparitions should be considered a hoax or demonic, when the most ancient churches, from in and around the holy land, all believe the same thing.
Again with the anti-Protestant bias. Your real agenda is showing, friend.Why is afew hundred years old group of Christians that is splintered into tens of thousands of denominations right.
I'm not defending apparitions of Mary. I'm trying to discern the truth about them. This thread has become "the RCC is evil and apparitions are a hoax or demonic". The two other largest and ancient faiths also claim apparitions, and also believes as the RCC believes. I'm trying to find a logical reason why apparitions should be considered a hoax or demonic, when the most ancient churches, from in and around the holy land, all believe the same thing. Why is a few hundred years old group of Christians that is splintered into tens of thousands of denominations right. Why is American Protestantism right but the ancient faiths from in and around the holy land wrong. George Washington isn't in the Bible but he is (was) real. The Bible itself claims not everything is in the Bible.
I think it makes your objections even more unreasonableWell, for one thing, there have been more "apparitions" declared by the RCC itself to have been bogus than the few famous ones that the church considers to be genuine. That certainly does not suggest that if Protestants are doubtful about such events that they are being unreasonable.
pointing out that the truly ancient churches accept visions of the Saints is not an "anti-Protestant bias"Again with the anti-Protestant bias. Your real agenda is showing, friend.
I think it makes your objections even more unreasonable
it is not like you are opposed to things that are not being investigated and just blindly accepted
you are rejecting something that has been investigated with a critical POV
Nice try, but of course that is not the reason.pointing out that the truly ancient churches accept visions of the Saints is not an "anti-Protestant bias"
What is this Holy-land you are referring to??
Q: Why is the apparitions at Fatima false?
A: Well, for one the prophecies claimed by the apparitions never came to pass. As far as I'm aware, Russia is not even remotely connected to roman catholicism.
Just a minute there. You're saying that we are unreasonable because we do not automatically accept as true the decision about their genuineness made unilaterally by the one church that benefits from having them be thought genuine?? Think about that one again. It would be laughable if it were not so absurd.
Nice try, but of course that is not the reason.
it was that people need to pray the rosary or Russia will spread her errors to the rest of the world
who is to say that this did not happen?
Call what pro choice?Do you call it pro-choice, too???
The husband must fulfill his duty to his wife, and likewise also the wife to her husband. 4The wife does not have authority over her own body, but the husband does; and likewise also the husband does not have authority over his own body, but the wife does. 5Stop depriving one another, except by agreement for a time, so that you may devote yourselves to prayer, and come together again so that Satan will not tempt you because of your lack of self-control.Where's that mandate?
That's not true. He demands no such thing.God actually demands that we not lust after our spouse. There's chastity in marriage, too.
This makes no sense in light of the whole of Scripture.Mary was, according to tradition, a vowed virgin. Consecrated, which is a permanent thing, whether you know it or not. You can't consecrate something to God, and then unconsecrate it. Which is why she said "How can this be since I know not man." God doesn't command indiscriminate sex with contraception. It's called temperance. I really don't expect you to understand. Maybe look into the subject and study it. From points of view other than yours. I did, and it made me want to be Catholic.
it was that people need to pray the rosary or Russia will spread her errors to the rest of the world
who is to say that this did not happen?
secularism, lack of respect for human life, lack of respect for the family and lack of respect for rights to property
looks like Russia did spread her errors to the rest of the world
or if the Prophesy is going to come to pass, maybe it is just taking some time? Look how long the Prophets in the Old Testament were waiting for the Messiah?
She wasn't? I'd say asking someone to allow the Holy Spirit to create life in you, bear him in your womb, mother him to adult-hood, and watch him suffer the horrid brutality Christ suffered for us isn't what you would call "Sacrifice"?
That's asside from the tradition that she sacrificed herself to be a temple virgin, and aside from the widowhood she suffered after Christ's crucifixion.
Nah, no sacrifice there. Nothing to see, move along.
God has called the Blessed Virgin Mary to be an example of deep and abiding faith in Jesus Christ even when such faith costs what is most dearly held to her heart. Blessed Mary kept the faith she exhibited from the beginning of Christ's earthly ministry at Cana and she kept it faithfully with resolute determination until the end despite all the hardships she faced. And earlier in her life on this Earth Blessed Mary freely consented to God's purpose in bringing the Saviour into the world he was to save. Thus Blessed Mary's life and words - few though they be in sacred scripture - have been a source of inspiration for countless faithful Christians through all the generation from the beginning of the gospel until our own day.
You ask how can Blessed Mary "save anyone from anything?" The answer is found in sacred scripture by analogy to the saving work of saint Paul expressed in these words,And also by analogy with a similar doctrine expressed by saint Jude in the following words,For I speak to you Gentiles, inasmuch as I am the apostle of the Gentiles, I magnify mine office: If by any means I may provoke to emulation them which are my flesh, and might save some of them. (Romans 11:13-14 KJV)Every labourer in the field of the gospel message seeks to save some people through the preaching of the gospel so one ought not to baulk at the thought that the saints in heaven and Blessed Mary, who is mother of the Church, have the same desire.But you, beloved, build yourselves up on your most holy faith; pray in the Holy Spirit; keep yourselves in the love of God; wait for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ unto eternal life. And convince some, who doubt; save some, by snatching them out of the fire; on some have mercy with fear, hating even the garment spotted by the flesh. (Jude 1:20-23 RSV)
well ofcourse you should not automatically accept such things as being true
but from looking at this thread
it seems like most Protestants automatically accept such things as demonic
they do not investigate such things or are they open to reasoned debate, they just shut down in the face of anything that appears "too Catholic"
even though it has been pointed out that similar type visions are regularly accepted by the other ancient Christian Churches such as the Eastern Orthodox and the Oriental Orthodox
I'm not defending apparitions of Mary. I'm trying to discern the truth about them. This thread has become "the RCC is evil and apparitions are a hoax or demonic". The two other largest and ancient faiths also claim apparitions, and also believes as the RCC believes. I'm trying to find a logical reason why apparitions should be considered a hoax or demonic, when the most ancient churches, from in and around the holy land, all believe the same thing. Why is a few hundred years old group of Christians that is splintered into tens of thousands of denominations right. Why is American Protestantism right but the ancient faiths from in and around the holy land wrong. George Washington isn't in the Bible but he is (was) real. The Bible itself claims not everything is in the Bible.
well of course you should not automatically accept such things as being true
Isn't that what you do? Accept them as true because your church has "validated" them?
I'll speak for myself and say that this has nothing to do with it being "too catholic". I consider these visions to be just as demonic as the visions that psychics see. One only need investigate the scriptures to see this as true.
God has called the Blessed Virgin Mary to be an example of deep and abiding faith in Jesus Christ even when such faith costs what is most dearly held to her heart. Blessed Mary kept the faith she exhibited from the beginning of Christ's earthly ministry at Cana and she kept it faithfully with resolute determination until the end despite all the hardships she faced. And earlier in her life on this Earth Blessed Mary freely consented to God's purpose in bringing the Saviour into the world he was to save. Thus Blessed Mary's life and words - few though they be in sacred scripture - have been a source of inspiration for countless faithful Christians through all the generation from the beginning of the gospel until our own day.
Please tell me how you know all of this about Mary? Aside from her accepting God's will for her to be mother to Christ, how do you know she was so unwavering? You say there are few who have been as great a source of inspiration, but I disagree. Mary is only as popular as she is because your church has elevated her status so high, making her more than what she was. If you look to the scripture, you'll see more examples of faithfulness than just Mary.
These examples aren't the same. Paul never saved anyone. His admonition to walk as he walk was nothing more than a request that others follow Christ. In that prayer a direct cry for help is being given to Mary. She is being asked to do the saving. The words are plainYou ask how can Blessed Mary "save anyone from anything?" The answer is found in sacred scripture by analogy to the saving work of saint Paul expressed in these words,And also by analogy with a similar doctrine expressed by saint Jude in the following words,For I speak to you Gentiles, inasmuch as I am the apostle of the Gentiles, I magnify mine office: If by any means I may provoke to emulation them which are my flesh, and might save some of them. (Romans 11:13-14 KJV)Every labourer in the field of the gospel message seeks to save some people through the preaching of the gospel so one ought not to baulk at the thought that the saints in heaven and Blessed Mary, who is mother of the Church, have the same desire.But you, beloved, build yourselves up on your most holy faith; pray in the Holy Spirit; keep yourselves in the love of God; wait for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ unto eternal life. And convince some, who doubt; save some, by snatching them out of the fire; on some have mercy with fear, hating even the garment spotted by the flesh. (Jude 1:20-23 RSV)
Tell me this, your church has an abundance of saints that you consider worthy examples of emulation. Do you have any other prayers of consecration to other saints, where you ask them to save you?
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