How do I ACTUALLY be saved?

ladodgers6 said:

We do not make the Cross effective by OUR activity!

Do you believe in progressive Sanctification?

Click to expand...

I believe in both progressive and entire sanctification.

And our activity becomes effective through the Cross; while our introduction to the Cross comes through repentance.

justbyfaith said:

We must repent and turn to Christ in order to be saved. Without repentance no one will ever begin to walk according to the Spirit, for they are walking in the opposite direction. Can a man be justified who is walking in the direction of sin?

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We seem to be going in circles. I shared what I believe and why I believe it. Yes, sinners need to repent and believe. But this is not the Good News, correct? What is the Good News for the ungodly? Is it in the announcement of who Christ is and what he has done, or is it in my Faith and Repentance?

I'm going to call it a night...be back to post again in the morning, if the Lord doesn't come back tonight...

Okay, one more before I call it a night...

Obviously, the gospel is that Christ died for me. Biblically, I enter into that, and appropriate that, through faith and repentance.

justbyfaith said:

I believe in both progressive and entire sanctification.

And our activity becomes effective through the Cross; while our introduction to the Cross comes through repentance.

Click to expand...

Our activity becomes effective through the Cross? Where is the activity of OUR Savior? Why boast about the activity of the sinner? Our introduction is through OUR repentance? No Sir, this is legalism. How perfect does our repentance has to be to be introduced to the Cross?

We are introduced to the Cross through the Proclamation of the Gospel and received through Faith Alone! Then comes the repentance, holiness, the walk in the light!

justbyfaith said:

I'm going to call it a night...be back to post again in the morning, if the Lord doesn't come back tonight...

Click to expand...

Amen, I appreciate our discussion together!

God Bless!

justbyfaith said:

I believe in both progressive and entire sanctification.

And our activity becomes effective through the Cross; while our introduction to the Cross comes through repentance.

Click to expand...

I beg to differ. When we try to find something in ourselves for confidence before God to secure or to maintain our Justification, rather that it be by the sole merits of Christ Alone! You distort and confuse the Gospel. You blur the lines and then our victory is in what we do, rather than the victory of Christ on the Cross!

Titus 3:5 he saved us, not because of works done by us in righteousness, but according to his own mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewal of the Holy Spirit, 6whom he poured out on us richly through Jesus Christ our Savior, 7so that being justified by his grace we might become heirs according to the hope of eternal life.

Its either by Grace (Gift that is given freely, not earned) or by a debt owned (earned through works of any kind). This is why Paul considers everything rubbish or dung, in order that, he can gain Christ.

Phil. 3:7But whatever were gains to me I now consider loss for the sake of Christ. 8What is more, I consider everything a loss because of the surpassing worth of knowing Christ Jesus my Lord, for whose sake I have lost all things. I consider them garbage, that I may gain Christ 9and be found in him, not having a righteousness of my own that comes from the law, but that which is through faith in Christ—the righteousness that comes from God on the basis of faith.

A Priest was asked long ago, "Father are we saved by Faith or by works?" "Neither", the Father replied. "But by the Mercy of God!"

Hope this help???

Luke Krause said:

Hello,

I don't feel very motivated in life because I just don't know what could happen in the future. Right now, I do believe and love God, but because of my great sin, I feel that in the future I might fall away from God. I'd just like to know what any of you people have to say about the questions below. If any of you could answer these for me, I'd really appreciate it. Thank you!

1. God says in Ephesians 2:8-9: For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— not by works, so that no one can boast. God is saying that it is not our doing that earns us salvation, but only Jesus' doing. But God says several times in the Bible that I must believe in the Lord, Jesus to be saved. Isn't believing in Jesus my doing? And I'm a sinner, so I don't trust my own doing. What if, because I'm a sinner, I don't believe in Jesus in the future?

2. Based on question 1 above, is there anything in the Bible that could give me confidence that I won't lose salvation in the future?

3. What do you all think about "once saved, always saved"? If I am saved now, will I always be saved? Can my salvation be taken away from me? Below are two links regarding this topic, one from gotquestions.org and wels.net . gotquestions.org (a very popular online Christian FAQ) says that once you are saved, you are always saved. The link provides a lot of Bible references too. But wels.net , also providing a lot of Bible references, says that a Christian can fall from the faith. The links are right below:

https://www.gotquestions.org/once-saved-always-saved.html

https://wels.net/faq/position-on-once-saved-always-saved/

Could you give a biblical answer on which of the links, if any of them, is correct?

------

To be honest, I'm kind of in panic mode. I don't want to do good works my entire life just to be confident that God would be pleased with me. I know God loves me. But with the unanswered questions above, I don't know if I will love God in the future. I ask that you take the time to answer these questions when you get the chance. Thank you again!

Click to expand...

1. By grace we are saved through Faith, if we have faith/believe in Christ and what he did we will be saved. By faith alone are we saved, the Lord opens our eyes/heart/ears to the Lord that we may understand and be saved(Matt 13:9-16; Luke 8:5-18; Mark 4:3-20,23; Acts 2:37) by the grace of God are you made able to understand(1 Cor 2:9-16) but it is up to you to believe on Christ and be saved, it is a free gift that you may choose to accept or deny.

2. If you follow the Law of Christ:
New Covenant is the Law of Liberty:James 1:,21,22,25; James 2:8,9,10,11,12
New Covenant is the Law of Life:Romans 8:2; Galatians 6:2; John 14:6
New Covenant is the Law of Righteousness:Romans 10:6; Romans 9:30
New Covenant is the Law of Salvation:Ephesians 2:8; Acts 4:12; Acts 28:28; Romans 1:16
New Covenant is the Law of Spirit:Romans 8:2; Romans 7:6,12,14,15,16,22,25; Romans
8:1,4,14; Romans 8:9,10,11,13,16
New covenant is the Law of Faith:Romans 3:21,22,24,25,26,27; Galatians 2:16; Hebrews 11;

By faith in Christ(John 3:3; John 3:15-18; John 3:35-36; Acts 16:31-33; John 6:47; John 5:24; John 14:1; Romans 10:8-9; Hebrews 11:6; Acts 10:43; 1 John 5:4-13; Mark 16:16) you will be justified after the Promise of Faith(Galatians 5:5,6,18,24,25; Galatians 3:13,14,16,17,22,24,26,29). But you are justified by faith and works(James 2:14-26), works being keeping the Law of Christ and doing the Lord's work.

3. Your Salvation was freely given to you and no man may take it away, you alone have the power to deny Christ and bring yourself to damnation( 2 Peter 2:21; Hebrews 10:26-31). Once a man has the seal of God put into his forehead he cannot fall away(whether or not this means they cannot sin(1 John 3:6-9), or simply that if they do sin they will always return and repent of wrongdoing(1 John 1:7-10; Romans 7:13-27) is unclear)(Revelation 9:4; 2 Timothy 2:19; Ezekiel 9:2-6; Ephesians 1:13-14; Ephesians 4:30) but the time when the Lord's people are sealed(Revelation 7:2-3; Ezekiel 9:2-6) is around/during the same time Satan's people are sealed with the Mark of the Beast(Revelation 13:16-17; Revelation 20:4; Revelation 16:2) so we know that at this time the seal may(Emphasis on may) be present but has not yet been enforced/truly sealed just as those with the Mark of the Beast may bear the Mark but currently have a chance to repent of their sins at this time as it has not yet been truly sealed(as the mark of the Beast has not yet been enforced by Law).

4. We are called to do Good works and serve God our entire lives just as the Apostles, and the Early Christians did. We are to love God with all our Heart and Soul devoting our entire lives to him, laying down our life for his name(Romans 8:36; Revelation 12:11; Matt 16:24-25; Luke 9:23-26).

I hope this has helped you brother, may the Lord God Yahshua the Christ Guide you to the truth and Light of his word.

ladodgers6 said:

Our activity becomes effective through the Cross? Where is the activity of OUR Savior? Why boast about the activity of the sinner? Our introduction is through OUR repentance? No Sir, this is legalism. How perfect does our repentance has to be to be introduced to the Cross?

We are introduced to the Cross through the Proclamation of the Gospel and received through Faith Alone! Then comes the repentance, holiness, the walk in the light!

Click to expand...

The activity of OUR Saviour is in that He is able to live His life in us and through us (Galatians 2:20) when we receive His righteousness as a free gift (Romans 5:15-17); which is a practical righteousness (1 John 3:7, Romans 5:19, Matthew 5:6).

And I'll agree with your latter statement if you will agree that repentance comes immediately when we place our faith in Christ; followed by holiness and walking in the light.

ladodgers6 said:

I beg to differ. When we try to find something in ourselves for confidence before God to secure or to maintain our Justification, rather that it be by the sole merits of Christ Alone! You distort and confuse the Gospel. You blur the lines and then our victory is in what we do, rather than the victory of Christ on the Cross!

Titus 3:5 he saved us, not because of works done by us in righteousness, but according to his own mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewal of the Holy Spirit, 6whom he poured out on us richly through Jesus Christ our Savior, 7so that being justified by his grace we might become heirs according to the hope of eternal life.

Its either by Grace (Gift that is given freely, not earned) or by a debt owned (earned through works of any kind). This is why Paul considers everything rubbish or dung, in order that, he can gain Christ.

Phil. 3:7But whatever were gains to me I now consider loss for the sake of Christ. 8What is more, I consider everything a loss because of the surpassing worth of knowing Christ Jesus my Lord, for whose sake I have lost all things. I consider them garbage, that I may gain Christ 9and be found in him, not having a righteousness of my own that comes from the law, but that which is through faith in Christ—the righteousness that comes from God on the basis of faith.

A Priest was asked long ago, "Father are we saved by Faith or by works?" "Neither", the Father replied. "But by the Mercy of God!"

Hope this help???

Click to expand...

Okay.

So then, the righteousness that is imparted to us when we believe (Matthew 5:6, Romans 5:19, and 1 John 3:7) is not our own righteousness, it is His (see 1 John 2:6; and also, again, 1 John 3:7).

In being saved by grace through faith it produces a change in our very character (as the context of Ephesians 2:8-9 shows, in Ephesians 2:2-3): We no longer walk according to the course of this world, we are no longer children of disobedience (which means that we have become obedient), no longer do we obey the dictates of the flesh and of the mind; and no longer are we the children of wrath by nature.

Now I ask you, will God at any time perform such a work in us against our will?

Does He not obtain our permission to perform this work in us by calling all men everywhere to repent?

And what happens to a man when he is washed in regeneration and the renewing of the Holy Ghost? Is not his heart changed, so that he is a new creature in Christ (2 Corinthians 5:17, Hebrews 10:14, 1 John 3:9, 1 Thessalonians 5:23)?

Most assuredly, this transformation of character does not happen because of any act of righteousness on my part. It is through faith in Christ alone; as I trust Him to perform a work of sanctification within me; which is unto salvation according to 2 Thessalonians 2:13.

justbyfaith said:

The activity of OUR Saviour is in that He is able to live His life in us and through us (Galatians 2:20) when we receive His righteousness as a free gift (Romans 5:15-17); which is a practical righteousness (1 John 3:7, Romans 5:19, Matthew 5:6).

And I'll agree with your latter statement if you will agree that repentance comes immediately when we place our faith in Christ; followed by holiness and walking in the light.

Click to expand...

I totally agree, and have agreed that our repentance is the fruit of our Faith in Christ! I am 100% with you on that; Faith and Repentance goes hand in hand. First Faith in Christ Alone! Then proceeds our repentance, works, deeds, and all the other aspects that flow from our justification in Christ Alone!

And our practical righteousness is not the ground or cause of OUR Salvation. Christ and His works of righteousness is the ONLY cause or ground of OUR Salvation before God!

Luke Krause said:

Hello,

I don't feel very motivated in life because I just don't know what could happen in the future. Right now, I do believe and love God, but because of my great sin, I feel that in the future I might fall away from God. I'd just like to know what any of you people have to say about the questions below. If any of you could answer these for me, I'd really appreciate it. Thank you!

1. God says in Ephesians 2:8-9: For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— not by works, so that no one can boast. God is saying that it is not our doing that earns us salvation, but only Jesus' doing. But God says several times in the Bible that I must believe in the Lord, Jesus to be saved. Isn't believing in Jesus my doing? And I'm a sinner, so I don't trust my own doing. What if, because I'm a sinner, I don't believe in Jesus in the future?

2. Based on question 1 above, is there anything in the Bible that could give me confidence that I won't lose salvation in the future?

3. What do you all think about "once saved, always saved"? If I am saved now, will I always be saved? Can my salvation be taken away from me? Below are two links regarding this topic, one from gotquestions.org and wels.net . gotquestions.org (a very popular online Christian FAQ) says that once you are saved, you are always saved. The link provides a lot of Bible references too. But wels.net , also providing a lot of Bible references, says that a Christian can fall from the faith. The links are right below:

https://www.gotquestions.org/once-saved-always-saved.html

https://wels.net/faq/position-on-once-saved-always-saved/

Could you give a biblical answer on which of the links, if any of them, is correct?

------

To be honest, I'm kind of in panic mode. I don't want to do good works my entire life just to be confident that God would be pleased with me. I know God loves me. But with the unanswered questions above, I don't know if I will love God in the future. I ask that you take the time to answer these questions when you get the chance. Thank you again!

Click to expand...

Luke Krause said:

Hello,

I don't feel very motivated in life because I just don't know what could happen in the future. Right now, I do believe and love God, but because of my great sin, I feel that in the future I might fall away from God. I'd just like to know what any of you people have to say about the questions below. If any of you could answer these for me, I'd really appreciate it. Thank you!

1. God says in Ephesians 2:8-9: For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— not by works, so that no one can boast. God is saying that it is not our doing that earns us salvation, but only Jesus' doing. But God says several times in the Bible that I must believe in the Lord, Jesus to be saved. Isn't believing in Jesus my doing? And I'm a sinner, so I don't trust my own doing. What if, because I'm a sinner, I don't believe in Jesus in the future?

2. Based on question 1 above, is there anything in the Bible that could give me confidence that I won't lose salvation in the future?

3. What do you all think about "once saved, always saved"? If I am saved now, will I always be saved? Can my salvation be taken away from me? Below are two links regarding this topic, one from gotquestions.org and wels.net . gotquestions.org (a very popular online Christian FAQ) says that once you are saved, you are always saved. The link provides a lot of Bible references too. But wels.net , also providing a lot of Bible references, says that a Christian can fall from the faith. The links are right below:

https://www.gotquestions.org/once-saved-always-saved.html

https://wels.net/faq/position-on-once-saved-always-saved/

Could you give a biblical answer on which of the links, if any of them, is correct?

------

To be honest, I'm kind of in panic mode. I don't want to do good works my entire life just to be confident that God would be pleased with me. I know God loves me. But with the unanswered questions above, I don't know if I will love God in the future. I ask that you take the time to answer these questions when you get the chance. Thank you again!

Click to expand...

Hello. I've read a couple of the first posts and their answers worry me for you, so I'm replying without reading the rest of the 9 pages.

First. What you have to do is in the Bible. It's clear:

"But what does it say? "The word is near you; it is in your mouth and in your heart," that is, the message concerning faith that we proclaim:

If you declare with your mouth, "Jesus is Lord," and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved." Romans 10:8-9

Belief is in the Life, Death and Bodily Resurrection of Christ, in His Lordship. He conquered death for your benefit so that you can be saved. As Jesus said:

I Am the Living One; I was dead, and now look, I am alive for ever and ever! And I hold the keys of death and Hades. Revelation 1:18

Jesus is the Messiah, our Lord, my Lord.

Concerning belief and works:

Jesus answered: The work of God is this, to believe in the One He has sent. John 6:29

We aren't perfect.. we are saints through Christ Jesus, because of His work, not our own. We are just reacting to Him, through Him, because of Him when/if we do anything good at all.

God made your one work possible, John 6:44 how you react to it is up to you... will you declare your belief?



Therefore do not worry about tomorrow, for tomorrow will worry about itself. Each day has enough trouble of its own. Matthew 6:34

justbyfaith said:

Okay.

So then, the righteousness that is imparted to us when we believe (Matthew 5:6, Romans 5:19, and 1 John 3:7) is not our own righteousness, it is His (see 1 John 2:6; and also, again, 1 John 3:7).

Click to expand...

Exactly, this is precisely the reason why Christ was born in the flesh and born under the Law. First, Christ came not to abolish the Law, but to fulfill the Law with perfect obedience for us. Then He killed our sins in his flesh to lift the curse of the Law. And its by His righteousness that He gives us freely and we receive through Faith Alone, that saves us, redeems us, restores us! This justbyfaith is the glorious good news proclaimed in the Gospel of Christ for the ungodly!

In being saved by grace through faith it produces a change in our very character (as the context of Ephesians 2:8-9 shows, in Ephesians 2:2-3): We no longer walk according to the course of this world, we are no longer children of disobedience (which means that we have become obedient), no longer do we obey the dictates of the flesh and of the mind; and no longer are we the children of wrath by nature.

Click to expand...

Amen to that!!! Now being made alive in Christ and dead to sin, we walk in newness of Life to God. And even this is God's gift in Christ to us! Christ purchased our forgiveness and repentance on the Cross! Not only does He gives us His perfect righteousness, but He also gives us His perfect Sanctification that is without blemish. Because we have to be Perfectly Holy to be with God.

30It is because of him that you are in Christ Jesus, who has become for us wisdom from God—that is, our righteousness, holiness and redemption. 31Therefore, as it is written: “Let the one who boasts boast in the Lord.”

Now I ask you, will God at any time perform such a work in us against our will?

Click to expand...

Absolutely not. What condition are we in when God finds us? Dead in trespasses and sins; children of wrath.

2 Cor. 4:4 4The god of this age has blinded the minds of unbelievers so they cannot see the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God.

We are in bondage to sin, death and Satan as unbeliever! How can unbelievers save themselves from this plight on their own ability or will? In John 3, it states that unbelievers HATE the light, but LOVE the darkness. Why? Because this is their identity, their depraved nature, sin have corrupted every faucet of our body; mind, heart, affections, everything.

But God who is rich in Mercy, resurrects us from the dead, and places us in Christ were we are free from bondage to sin, death and Satan! He rescues us from this condition, from this bondage of death and condemnation. Because God so loved us that he sent His only begotten Son to die in our stead, and receive the full punishment for our sins, and we receive his righteous, sanctification. Luther called this the marvelous exchange. Being in Union with Christ, like a marriage we receive all of his heavenly blessings; like a wife receive all that the husband has.

Does He not obtain our permission to perform this work in us by calling all men everywhere to repent?

Click to expand...

No sir, how could we give him our permission, when we are hostile enemies of God? We are dead in sin, as Paul mentioned in Ephesians 2, we crave the passions of the mind and flesh! God has to save us, resurrect us from the dead. And once we are free in Christ, why would anyone want to go back? Would such a person, point their finger at God, and say how dare you do this against my will?

And what happens to a man when he is washed in regeneration and the renewing of the Holy Ghost? Is not his heart changed, so that he is a new creature in Christ (2 Corinthians 5:17, Hebrews 10:14, 1 John 3:9, 1 Thessalonians 5:23)?

Click to expand...

A course, we do not deny the New Birth. We believe this and teach it. He gives us New Hearts and New Minds, to believe and follow him!

Most assuredly, this transformation of character does not happen because of any act of righteousness on my part. It is through faith in Christ alone; as I trust Him to perform a work of sanctification within me; which is unto salvation according to 2 Thessalonians 2:13.

Click to expand...

Okay I will agree with this, only if you agree that this sanctification is not the cause or ground of our Salvation. Why do I say this? Because this sanctification of the believer has to be absolutely perfect without blemish. And as Paul stated in Romans 7, that believers struggle with sin, until they receive their glorified bodies. That's why Christ is OUR sanctification, because only He is perfectly holy.

Hope this helps???

God bless!

Luke Krause said:

Hello,

I don't feel very motivated in life because I just don't know what could happen in the future. Right now, I do believe and love God, but because of my great sin, I feel that in the future I might fall away from God. I'd just like to know what any of you people have to say about the questions below. If any of you could answer these for me, I'd really appreciate it. Thank you!

1. God says in Ephesians 2:8-9: For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— not by works, so that no one can boast. God is saying that it is not our doing that earns us salvation, but only Jesus' doing. But God says several times in the Bible that I must believe in the Lord, Jesus to be saved. Isn't believing in Jesus my doing? And I'm a sinner, so I don't trust my own doing. What if, because I'm a sinner, I don't believe in Jesus in the future?

2. Based on question 1 above, is there anything in the Bible that could give me confidence that I won't lose salvation in the future?

3. What do you all think about "once saved, always saved"? If I am saved now, will I always be saved? Can my salvation be taken away from me? Below are two links regarding this topic, one from gotquestions.org and wels.net . gotquestions.org (a very popular online Christian FAQ) says that once you are saved, you are always saved. The link provides a lot of Bible references too. But wels.net , also providing a lot of Bible references, says that a Christian can fall from the faith. The links are right below:

https://www.gotquestions.org/once-saved-always-saved.html

https://wels.net/faq/position-on-once-saved-always-saved/

Could you give a biblical answer on which of the links, if any of them, is correct?

------

To be honest, I'm kind of in panic mode. I don't want to do good works my entire life just to be confident that God would be pleased with me. I know God loves me. But with the unanswered questions above, I don't know if I will love God in the future. I ask that you take the time to answer these questions when you get the chance. Thank you again!

Click to expand...

If I may add this?

Saints and sinners
sin & forgiveness

By Kathryn Kleinhans April 12, 2005


Some religious traditions distinguish between saints, who obey God’s will, and sinners, who disobey. Others set apart saints as super-holy people. Regular Christians like you and me aren’t particularly bad, they would say, but we haven’t done anything extraordinary enough to be called saints.

Being a saint isn’t about what I do or don’t do but about who I am in relationship with God. That’s also true of being a sinner. The Lutheran confessions define sin as the self-centered failure to trust God (Apology of the Augsburg Confession, Article II). Adam and Eve’s problem wasn’t just that they ate a piece of fruit or broke one of God’s rules. Their real sin was their desire to be “like God,” relying on their judgment rather than trusting God’s word. For us, too, our specific sinful behaviors are only symptoms of this self-centered condition that theologians call “original sin.”

Martin Luther describes Christians as “simultaneously saint and sinner.” This both/and approach is a distinctly Lutheran understanding of who we are in God’s eyes.

Luther calls Christians “simultaneously saint and sinner” because he redefines “saint” as a forgiven sinner. We are called saints not because we change into something different but because our relationship with God changes as a result of God’s grace. Luther said: “The saints are sinners, too, but they are forgiven and absolved.”

During my final year of college, I faced some difficult decisions. I sought advice from one of my professors, who was also a pastor. He said, “Remember that even if you make the right choice, you’re forgiven.”

Wow! It’s easy to rely on ourselves, with forgiveness as an insurance policy in case we mess up. But this wise pastor reminded me that even on my best days, what matters most is not what I do or decide but that Jesus died for me. When I look at myself in the mirror, I always see the reflection of a sinner. But when God looks at me, he sees me through Jesus. My sin is covered with Christ’s own righteousness. Thanks be to God!

justbyfaith said:

Okay.

So then, the righteousness that is imparted to us when we believe (Matthew 5:6, Romans 5:19, and 1 John 3:7) is not our own righteousness, it is His (see 1 John 2:6; and also, again, 1 John 3:7).

In being saved by grace through faith it produces a change in our very character (as the context of Ephesians 2:8-9 shows, in Ephesians 2:2-3): We no longer walk according to the course of this world, we are no longer children of disobedience (which means that we have become obedient), no longer do we obey the dictates of the flesh and of the mind; and no longer are we the children of wrath by nature.

Now I ask you, will God at any time perform such a work in us against our will?

Does He not obtain our permission to perform this work in us by calling all men everywhere to repent?

And what happens to a man when he is washed in regeneration and the renewing of the Holy Ghost? Is not his heart changed, so that he is a new creature in Christ (2 Corinthians 5:17, Hebrews 10:14, 1 John 3:9, 1 Thessalonians 5:23)?

Most assuredly, this transformation of character does not happen because of any act of righteousness on my part. It is through faith in Christ alone; as I trust Him to perform a work of sanctification within me; which is unto salvation according to 2 Thessalonians 2:13.

Click to expand...

I know you will not understand this at first, but take your time, and ponder upon it for a bit, before you reply.


By Kathryn Kleinhans April 12, 2005


Some religious traditions distinguish between saints, who obey God’s will, and sinners, who disobey. Others set apart saints as super-holy people. Regular Christians like you and me aren’t particularly bad, they would say, but we haven’t done anything extraordinary enough to be called saints.

Being a saint isn’t about what I do or don’t do but about who I am in relationship with God. That’s also true of being a sinner. The Lutheran confessions define sin as the self-centered failure to trust God (Apology of the Augsburg Confession, Article II). Adam and Eve’s problem wasn’t just that they ate a piece of fruit or broke one of God’s rules. Their real sin was their desire to be “like God,” relying on their judgment rather than trusting God’s word. For us, too, our specific sinful behaviors are only symptoms of this self-centered condition that theologians call “original sin.”

Martin Luther describes Christians as “simultaneously saint and sinner.” This both/and approach is a distinctly Lutheran understanding of who we are in God’s eyes.

Luther calls Christians “simultaneously saint and sinner” because he redefines “saint” as a forgiven sinner. We are called saints not because we change into something different but because our relationship with God changes as a result of God’s grace. Luther said: “The saints are sinners, too, but they are forgiven and absolved.”

During my final year of college, I faced some difficult decisions. I sought advice from one of my professors, who was also a pastor. He said, “Remember that even if you make the right choice, you’re forgiven.”

Wow! It’s easy to rely on ourselves, with forgiveness as an insurance policy in case we mess up. But this wise pastor reminded me that even on my best days, what matters most is not what I do or decide but that Jesus died for me. When I look at myself in the mirror, I always see the reflection of a sinner. But when God looks at me, he sees me through Jesus. My sin is covered with Christ’s own righteousness. Thanks be to God!

@justbyfaith: Now I ask you, will God at any time perform such a work in us against our will?

@ladodgers6: Absolutely not. What condition are we in when God finds us? Dead in trespasses and sins; children of wrath.

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It seems to me that you are saying here that God will not at any time perform the work of Ephesians 2:2-3 in us against our will. Correct me if I'm wrong.

@justbyfaith: Does He not obtain our permission to perform this work in us by calling all men everywhere to repent?

@ladodgers6: No sir, how could we give him our permission, when we are hostile enemies of God? We are dead in sin, as Paul mentioned in Ephesians 2, we crave the passions of the mind and flesh! God has to save us, resurrect us from the dead. And once we are free in Christ, why would anyone want to go back? Would such a person, point their finger at God, and say how dare you do this against my will?

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Now it seems to me that you are here changing your tune, and saying that God will save us and do the work of Ephesians 2:2-3 in us, against our will, without our permission.
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Which one is it?

In answer to your question, which I have placed in larger letters above, does not our heavenly Father draw sinners to Jesus by convicting them of sin (John 6:44, John 16:8-11)? He creates a situation where they must humble themselves, wherein He gives them the power to repent as He draws them. He succours (helps) them in the day of salvation (2 Corinthians 6:2, Hebrews 2:18) so that they are given the ability to make a decision to surrender to the Lord that is unhindered by the total depravity they inherited from Adam.

ladodgers6 said:

I know you will not understand this at first, but take your time, and ponder upon it for a bit, before you reply.

View attachment 234158


Saints and sinners
sin & forgiveness​

By Kathryn Kleinhans April 12, 2005


Some religious traditions distinguish between saints, who obey God’s will, and sinners, who disobey. Others set apart saints as super-holy people. Regular Christians like you and me aren’t particularly bad, they would say, but we haven’t done anything extraordinary enough to be called saints.

Being a saint isn’t about what I do or don’t do but about who I am in relationship with God. That’s also true of being a sinner. The Lutheran confessions define sin as the self-centered failure to trust God (Apology of the Augsburg Confession, Article II). Adam and Eve’s problem wasn’t just that they ate a piece of fruit or broke one of God’s rules. Their real sin was their desire to be “like God,” relying on their judgment rather than trusting God’s word. For us, too, our specific sinful behaviors are only symptoms of this self-centered condition that theologians call “original sin.”

Martin Luther describes Christians as “simultaneously saint and sinner.” This both/and approach is a distinctly Lutheran understanding of who we are in God’s eyes.

Luther calls Christians “simultaneously saint and sinner” because he redefines “saint” as a forgiven sinner. We are called saints not because we change into something different but because our relationship with God changes as a result of God’s grace. Luther said: “The saints are sinners, too, but they are forgiven and absolved.”

During my final year of college, I faced some difficult decisions. I sought advice from one of my professors, who was also a pastor. He said, “Remember that even if you make the right choice, you’re forgiven.”

Wow! It’s easy to rely on ourselves, with forgiveness as an insurance policy in case we mess up. But this wise pastor reminded me that even on my best days, what matters most is not what I do or decide but that Jesus died for me. When I look at myself in the mirror, I always see the reflection of a sinner. But when God looks at me, he sees me through Jesus. My sin is covered with Christ’s own righteousness. Thanks be to God!

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I actually agree with this (and I also understood it immediately). I know that I am a sinner before God in my own life (1 Timothy 1:15); and that He has appropriated salvation to me through His shed blood on the Cross of Calvary.

However, there is still the issue of the fact that in Romans 8:12-13, spiritual life and death is based on whether I walk according to the flesh or whether I walk according to the Spirit as a general rule. If I live according to the flesh, it is the sign that I am not born again (as I would be spiritually dead); and therefore not justified before the Lord.

Those who live and believe in Jesus shall never die (John 11:25-27), but those who walk and live according to the flesh will die (Romans 8:12-13).

And therefore, if I live and believe in Jesus I will not walk according to the flesh.

And therefore also, if I walk according to the flesh it is because I don't live and believe in Jesus.

See also and compare James 1:15-16 to John 11:25-27. When sin is fully grown, it brings forth death. But if I live and believe in Jesus I will never die.

And therefore, if I live and believe in Jesus, the Holy Spirit in me will be the restraint, and the safeguard, against sin becoming fully grown in my life.

Do not err, beloved brethren.

I want to clarify that I call myself a sinner in much the same way that an alcoholic in AA still calls himself an alcoholic even after he has been clean and sober fifty years. It has to do with the fact that we all have a nature of flesh that is sinful (although, in contradiction to this, Ephesians 2:2-3 would tell us that we are no longer children of wrath by nature), not necessarily that we are doomed to walk sinfully for the rest of our lives (since Romans 8:12 tells us that we are not obligated to sin). Sin can be rendered dead (Romans 7:8, Romans 6:6-7, Galatians 5:24), so that it no longer has any authority over our behaviour.

ladodgers6 said:

Okay I will agree with this, only if you agree that this sanctification is not the cause or ground of our Salvation

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Why would I agree with such a statement when the Bible contradicts it in the verse that I referenced (2 Thessalonians 2:13)?

But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth.

Hazelelponi said:

We aren't perfect..

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Actually, Hebrews 10:14, 1 John 3:9, and 1 Thessalonians 5:23-24 would contradict you if you are claiming that we can't be perfect as those who are truly born again.

He has shed abroad the fulness of His love in our hearts (Romans 5:5, Ephesians 3:19); but of course we are still being transformed by the renewing of our minds (Romans 12:1-2) so that we are growing up into the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ, unto a perfect man (Ephesians 4:13).

Therefore I would ask you to answer the following again, since you seem to have contradicted yourself in your previous answer. to @ladodgers6.
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So then, the righteousness that is imparted to us when we believe (Matthew 5:6, Romans 5:19, and 1 John 3:7) is not our own righteousness, it is His (see 1 John 2:6; and also, again, 1 John 3:7).

In being saved by grace through faith it produces a change in our very character (as the context of Ephesians 2:8-9 shows, in Ephesians 2:2-3): We no longer walk according to the course of this world, we are no longer children of disobedience (which means that we have become obedient), no longer do we obey the dictates of the flesh and of the mind; and no longer are we the children of wrath by nature.

Now I ask you, will God at any time perform such a work in us against our will?

Does He not obtain our permission to perform this work in us by calling all men everywhere to repent?

And what happens to a man when he is washed in regeneration and the renewing of the Holy Ghost? Is not his heart changed, so that he is a new creature in Christ (2 Corinthians 5:17, Hebrews 10:14, 1 John 3:9, 1 Thessalonians 5:23)?

Most assuredly, this transformation of character does not happen because of any act of righteousness on my part. It is through faith in Christ alone; as I trust Him to perform a work of sanctification within me; which is unto salvation according to 2 Thessalonians 2:13.
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Please pay attention to what I put in larger letters, as I think you may have thought that I was using a different word there; and I think that you also failed to look up the scriptures that I referenced to understand further what I was saying.

And also, I would appreciate it if you would answer the post as a whole without picking it apart line by line. If it can be refuted, it should be refuted as an entire concept/message and not as a collection of smaller concepts put together to form a message. But, if you think you have to pick it apart, by all means do so. It will just show me that you can't deal with the concept of my post as a whole.