how do adventists view of the trinity?

overcomer · Sep 21, 2016

BobRyan said:
Hebrews 10
14 For by one offering He has perfected for all time those who are sanctified.
15 And the Holy Spirit also testifies to us; for after saying,
16 “This is the covenant that I will make with them
After those days, says the LORD:
I will put My laws upon their heart,
And on their mind I will write them,”
He then says,
17 “And their sins and their lawless deeds
I will remember no more.”

Jer 31:31-33
31 “Behold, days are coming,” declares the LORD, “when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah, 32 not like the covenant which I made with their fathers in the day I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt, My covenant which they broke, although I was a husband to them,” declares the LORD.

LORD all upper case - is always YHWH.

And Hebrews 10 -- says that is the Holy Spirit speaking - and so is in fact YHWH!

The above proves what the scriptures already plainly says:

1 Cor 3:17 Now the Lord is that Spirit: and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty.
John 2
23 But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him.
24 God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.

All you had shown was that God is a spirit. That spirit is the Father. Not some third person of Godhead who is a God in his own right.

"God the holy spirit" = not found in the bible.

You have chosen to debate the Trinity - the One God in three persons doctrine of the SDA church.

It is one thing to debate the church on that point - that happens all the time. It is another thing not to know that the SDA church affirms One God in three Divine Persons.

Of course that happens all the time. It's not like the SDA church holds ecclesiastical power on interpreting the bible as the RCC does, is it?

I know the SDA church now affirms the 'Trinity'. The church affirms affirms a lot of things today. That doesn't mean they are necessarily biblical. The SDA church in pioneer days are most certainly are not Trinitarians.

“Most of the founders of Seventh-day Adventism would not be able to join the church today if they had to subscribe to the denomination’s Fundamental Beliefs. Most specifically, most would not be able to agree to belief number 2, which deals with the doctrine of the Trinity. For Joseph Bates the Trinity was an unscriptural doctrine, for James White it was that ‘old Trinitiarian absurdity’, and for M E Cornell it was a fruit of the great apostasy, along with such false doctrines as Sunday-keeping and the immortality of the soul”. Ministry magazine. October 1993 p10. Article by George Knight, professor of church history at Andrews University.

“Dear Brother Froom, From my personal knowledge the doctrine of the ‘Trinity-Godhead’, was not taught by Seventh-day Adventists during the early days of my ministry.” Letter from H Cottrell to L E Froom. Oct 16. 1931.

“Replying to your letter of October 13 regarding the doctrine of the Trinity, I will say that Seventh-day Adventists do not and never have accepted the dark, mysterious Catholic doctrine of the Trinity”. Letter from B G Wilkinson to Dr D S Teters. November 3. 1936.

“Dear Brother Froom, Mrs Soper calls to our attention the fact that you are seeking information as to the positions held by our early workers concerning the Trinity, the personality of the Holy Spirit, and the pre-existence of Christ as this may be revealed in their writings. I think we will have to concede that our early workers were not Trinitarians”. Letter from Arthur L White (EGW's son) to L E Froom. Dec 7. 1955.

Forget not your history.

Dave-W · Sep 21, 2016

BobRyan said:
First I post this
One God - "Hear o' Israel the Lord your God is ONE" - Deut 6:4 - Mark 12:29

PLEASE use the Hebrew. It makes your point MUCH BETTER than the english.

Sh'ma Yisrael Adonai Elohenu Adonai echad.

Lets break that down word by word. This verse says three in one as well as any scripture. Note that it calls on God 3 times and then says He is One:

Sh'ma - Hear (command) :
Yisrael - Israel
Adonai - (1)YHVH
Elohenu - (2) Our God
Adonai - (3)YHVH
echad - One, but not an absolute singularity; rather, a composite unity. (at least as used in the 5 books of Moses) Note how it is used here:

Genesis 2:24 For this reason a man shall leave his father and his mother, and be joined to his wife; and they shall become one [echad] flesh.

We have God named 3 times and then it says HE is echad - a composite unity.

BobRyan · Sep 21, 2016

DaveW-Ohev said:
PLEASE use the Hebrew. It makes your point MUCH BETTER than the english.

Sh'ma Yisrael Adonai Elohenu Adonai echad.

Lets break that down word by word. This verse says three in one as well as any scripture. Note that it calls on God 3 times and then says He is One:

Sh'ma - Hear (command) :
Yisrael - Israel
Adonai - (1)YHVH
Elohenu - (2) Our God
Adonai - (3)YHVH
echad - One, but not an absolute singularity; rather, a composite unity. (at least as used in the 5 books of Moses) Note how it is used here:

Genesis 2:24 For this reason a man shall leave his father and his mother, and be joined to his wife; and they shall become one [echad] flesh.

We have God named 3 times and then it says HE is echad - a composite unity.

Thanks! Am adding that now in my notes.

overcomer · Sep 21, 2016

DaveW-Ohev said:
PLEASE use the Hebrew. It makes your point MUCH BETTER than the english.

Sh'ma Yisrael Adonai Elohenu Adonai echad.

Lets break that down word by word. This verse says three in one as well as any scripture. Note that it calls on God 3 times and then says He is One:

Sh'ma - Hear (command) :
Yisrael - Israel
Adonai - (1)YHVH
Elohenu - (2) Our God
Adonai - (3)YHVH
echad - One, but not an absolute singularity; rather, a composite unity. (at least as used in the 5 books of Moses) Note how it is used here:

Genesis 2:24 For this reason a man shall leave his father and his mother, and be joined to his wife; and they shall become one [echad] flesh.

We have God named 3 times and then it says HE is echad - a composite unity.

Look at what Jesus said about this particular verse...have these verses in your notes?

Mark 12
28 And one of the scribes came, and having heard them reasoning together, and perceiving that he had answered them well, asked him, Which is the first commandment of all?
29 And Jesus answered him, The first of all the commandments is, Hear, O Israel; The Lord our God is one Lord:
30 And thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind, and with all thy strength: this is the first commandment.

The scribe understood correctly and stated that verse is about one God the Father, not three: αὐτός: he/him. Singular.

32 And the scribe said unto him, Well, Master, thou hast said the truth: for there is one God; and there is none other but he:
33 And to love him with all the heart, and with all the understanding, and with all the soul, and with all the strength, and to love his neighbour as himself, is more than all whole burnt offerings and sacrifices.

Here Jesus Commended him.

34 And when Jesus saw that he answered discreetly, he said unto him, Thou art not far from the kingdom of God. And no man after that durst ask him any question.

Thou shalt have no other gods before me. Not us.

BobRyan · Sep 21, 2016

One God - "Hear o' Israel the Lord your God is ONE" - Deut 6:4 - Mark 12:29
Three persons - "in the name of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit" Matt 28.

==========="DaveW-Ohev" said ======================

PLEASE use the Hebrew. It makes your point MUCH BETTER than the english.

Sh'ma Yisrael Adonai Elohenu Adonai echad.

Lets break that down word by word. This verse says three in one as well as any scripture. Note that it calls on God 3 times and then says He is One:

Sh'ma - Hear (command) :
Yisrael - Israel
Adonai - (1)YHVH
Elohenu - (2) Our God
Adonai - (3)YHVH
echad - One, but not an absolute singularity; rather, a composite unity. (at least as used in the 5 books of Moses) Note how it is used here:

Genesis 2:24 For this reason a man shall leave his father and his mother, and be joined to his wife; and they shall become one [echad] flesh.

We have God named 3 times and then it says HE is echad - a composite unity.

==================================================

overcomer said:
Look at what Jesus said about this particular verse...have these verses in your notes?

Mark 12
28 And one of the scribes came, and having heard them reasoning together, and perceiving that he had answered them well, asked him, Which is the first commandment of all?
29 And Jesus answered him, The first of all the commandments is, Hear, O Israel; The Lord our God is one Lord:
30 And thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind, and with all thy strength: this is the first commandment.
.

Thomas said "My Lord and My God" but as Jesus points out in Matt 16 - not everyone knew that.

Your point demonstrating that "not everyone knew that" is not disputed.

in Christ,

Bob

BobRyan · Sep 21, 2016

deleted

overcomer · Sep 21, 2016

Actually it's 'YHWH Elohim YHWH'. Twice 'YHWH', once 'Elohim'. I don't know how you get 3 distinct persons from this verse and which one is which??? And don't the Trinitarians say 'Elohim' is two or more? So that seems to be 4 or more persons in that phrase by your logic.

So much mental gymnastics to prove something when the next verse tells us how many are speaking.

Deut 6:6 And these words, which I command thee this day, shall be in thine heart: (I: first person singular).

LORD (all caps) God: 'YHWH Elohim' is one of many names of God. It appeared 519 times in the OT. The first appearance is in the Genesis creation account.

Gen 2:4 These are the generations of the heavens and of the earth when they were created, in the day that the LORD God made the earth and the heavens,

So according to your logic, how many were at the creation? Two? That's certainly not how Trinitarians view it.

Dave-W · Sep 21, 2016

overcomer said:
Look at what Jesus said about this particular verse...have these verses in your notes?

Absolutely we know those verses. Since the Sh'ma (Deut 6.4) is quoted in every synagogue at every service, having Our Lord quote it is both expected (as an observant Jew) and exciting, breathing New Covenant life into a time honored Jewish tradition.

The "trinitarian" aspect of that verse is not all that well known in Messianic circles; (although IMO it should be) It was pointed out to me by my good friend Barry Segal. (look him up)

Dave-W · Sep 21, 2016

overcomer said:
Actually it's 'YHWH Elohim YHWH'.

Not really. It is Yud Hay Vav Hay twice (YHVH) and the word is אֱלֹהֵינוּ EloheNU. It is NOT אֱלֹהִים which is just plain Elohim. Yes Elohim is plural. Any Hebrew word ending in -im or -ot is probably a plural. But the -nu ending נוּ is first person plural - "ours."

overcomer · Sep 21, 2016

DaveW-Ohev said:
Absolutely we know those verses. Since the Sh'ma (Deut 6.4) is quoted in every synagogue at every service, having Our Lord quote it is both expected (as an observant Jew) and exciting, breathing New Covenant life into a time honored Jewish tradition.

The "trinitarian" aspect of that verse is not all that well known in Messianic circles; (although IMO it should be) It was pointed out to me by my good friend Barry Segal. (look him up)

'We'? Which we? The orthodox Jews who don't believe in the trinity or a triune god or the messianics who most were from Prostestant churches (trinitarians) originally?

overcomer · Sep 21, 2016

DaveW-Ohev said:
Not really. It is Yud Hay Vav Hay twice (YHVH) and the word is אֱלֹהֵינוּ EloheNU. It is NOT אֱלֹהִים which is just plain Elohim. Yes Elohim is plural. Any Hebrew word ending in -im or -ot is probably a plural. But the -nu ending נוּ is first person plural - "ours."

It's the same plain אֱלֹהִים as in Genesis 1:1.

Would you just accept what Jesus plainly taught in John 17:3 and Paul in 1 Corinthians 1:3, 1 Corinthians 8:6, 2 Corinthians 1:2, Galatians 1:3, Ephesians 1:2, Ephesians 6:23, Philippians 1:2, Colossians 1:2, 1 Thessalonians 1:1....need I continue?

Psalm 119:130 The entrance of thy words giveth light; it giveth understanding unto the simple.

The Word of God on this subject is clear that even the simple minded child can understand without grasping onto obscurity.

Dave-W · Sep 22, 2016

overcomer said:
plain אֱלֹהִים as in Genesis 1:1.

No it is not. Look it up in the actual text, not some word list that gives the roots.

That is something I find annoying about Strongs.

overcomer · Sep 22, 2016

DaveW-Ohev said:
No it is not. Look it up in the actual text, not some word list that gives the roots.

That is something I find annoying about Strongs.

Hebrew is a dead language that nobody speaks. No where are we required to know the linguistics and the intricacies of the original language to know the biblical doctrine.

Jesus told the Jews who plotted to kill him: search the scriptures for in them you think you have eternal life. And they are they which testifies of me. The Jews have all the knowledge but none of the wisdom and the spiritual connection to know the Messiah.

Here is what the Savior said himself on this subject.

John 17:3 And this is life eternal, that they might know thee (Jesus was talking to the Father) the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.

Dave-W · Sep 22, 2016

overcomer said:
Hebrew is a dead language that nobody speaks. No where are we required to know the linguistics and the intricacies of the original language to know

And that attitude is part of the reason we have a thousand different denominations. Of course knowledge of the original languages is required for both OT and NT. And in the NT, how that dialect was used in the diaspora Jewish Communities (and not just in Greek society at large).

overcomer · Sep 22, 2016

DaveW-Ohev said:
And that attitude is part of the reason we have a thousand different denominations. Of course knowledge of the original languages is required for both OT and NT. And in the NT, how that dialect was used in the diaspora Jewish Communities (and not just in Greek society at large).

Thousand denominations, but one remnant.

1 Corinthians 2
6 Howbeit we speak wisdom among them that are perfect: yet not the wisdom of this world, nor of the princes of this world, that come to nought:
7 But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, even the hidden wisdom, which God ordained before the world unto our glory:
8 Which none of the princes of this world knew: for had they known it, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory.
9 But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him.
10 But God hath revealed them unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God.

BobRyan · Sep 22, 2016

DaveW-Ohev said:
Not really. It is Yud Hay Vav Hay twice (YHVH) and the word is אֱלֹהֵינוּ EloheNU. It is NOT אֱלֹהִים which is just plain Elohim. Yes Elohim is plural. Any Hebrew word ending in -im or -ot is probably a plural. But the -nu ending נוּ is first person plural - "ours."

Nice ... !

BobRyan · Sep 22, 2016

One God - "Hear o' Israel the Lord your God is ONE" - Deut 6:4 - Mark 12:29
Three persons - "in the name of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit" Matt 28.

==========="DaveW-Ohev" said ======================

PLEASE use the Hebrew. It makes your point MUCH BETTER than the english.

Sh'ma Yisrael Adonai Elohenu Adonai echad.

Lets break that down word by word. This verse says three in one as well as any scripture. Note that it calls on God 3 times and then says He is One:

Sh'ma - Hear (command) :
Yisrael - Israel
Adonai - (1)YHVH
Elohenu - (2) Our God
Adonai - (3)YHVH
echad - One, but not an absolute singularity; rather, a composite unity. (at least as used in the 5 books of Moses) Note how it is used here:

Genesis 2:24 For this reason a man shall leave his father and his mother, and be joined to his wife; and they shall become one [echad] flesh.

We have God named 3 times and then it says HE is echad - a composite unity.

==================================================

overcomer said:
So much mental gymnastics to prove something when the next verse tells us how many are speaking.

Actually - I see the point in the texts given - and it is pretty obvious.

overcomer · Sep 22, 2016

BobRyan said:
One God - "Hear o' Israel the Lord your God is ONE" - Deut 6:4 - Mark 12:29
Three persons - "in the name of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit" Matt 28.

Sh'ma Yisrael Adonai Elohenu Adonai echad.

Lets break that down word by word. This verse says three in one as well as any scripture. Note that it calls on God 3 times and then says He is One:

Sh'ma - Hear (command) :
Yisrael - Israel
Adonai - (1)YHVH
Elohenu - (2) Our God
Adonai - (3)YHVH
echad - One, but not an absolute singularity; rather, a composite unity. (at least as used in the 5 books of Moses) Note how it is used here:

Genesis 2:24 For this reason a man shall leave his father and his mother, and be joined to his wife; and they shall become one [echad] flesh.

We have God named 3 times and then it says HE is echad - a composite unity.

Actually - I see the point in the texts given - and it is pretty obvious.

I think you might want to look at it again.
It doesn't actually say "YHWH Elohim YHWH is ONE".
It actually says "YHWH Elohim is ONE YHWH".

The words in the actual order say quite differently.

Dave-W · Sep 23, 2016

overcomer said:
The words in the actual order say quite differently.

Did you look at the word order in the original Hebrew? (and just not some translator's opinion of what the word order should be?)

overcomer · Sep 23, 2016

DaveW-Ohev said:
Did you look at the word order in the original Hebrew? (and just not some translator's opinion of what the word order should be?)

Original according to whom???

And how far did the Jews get from knowing all the Hebrew and the customs? Still stuck in the same spot from 2000 years ago.

how do adventists view of the trinity?

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