How do Adventists handle this text?

[BobRyan]

Sorry, where in Hebrews 9 is it talking of the high priest Jesus going in and out of the sanctuary many times?

Heb 9
24 For Christ did not enter a holy place made with hands, a mere copy of the true one, but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God for us; 25 nor was it that He would offer Himself often, as the high priest enters the holy place year by year with blood that is not his own. 26 Otherwise, He would have needed to suffer often since the foundation of the world; but now once at the consummation of the ages He has been manifested to put away sin by the sacrifice of Himself. 27 And inasmuch as it is appointed for men to die once and after this comes judgment


Heb 10
11 Every priest stands daily ministering and offering time after time the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins; 12 but He, having offered one sacrifice for sins for all time, sat down at the right hand of God,


Heb 7
26 For it was fitting for us to have such a high priest, holy, innocent, undefiled, separated from sinners and exalted above the heavens; 27 who does not need daily, like those high priests, to offer up sacrifices, first for His own sins and then for the sins of the people, because this He did once for all when He offered up Himself.

By contrast He suffered once.. all offerings collapsed into one and enters once with the blood of sacrifice.

I'm sorry but is your reference in Hebrews 9:25,

Indeed it is pretty much all over that section .. 7,9,10 as noted above.

the very next sentence says "as the high priest enters the [hagion] year by year .

Heb 9
24 For Christ did not enter a holy place made with hands, a mere copy of the true one, but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God for us; 25 nor was it that He would offer Himself often, as the high priest enters the holy place year by year with blood that is not his own. 26 Otherwise, He would have needed to suffer often since the foundation of the world; but now once at the consummation of the ages He has been manifested to put away sin by the sacrifice of Himself. 27 And inasmuch as it is appointed for men to die once and after this comes judgment

Heb 7:27 .. "daily"
Heb 9:26 "often"
Heb 10 "time after time"

Compared to "just once for all time"

Vs a Heb 9 text that might say "once at the end of the year" which I think a lot of folks had hoped for.

 

[YouAreAwesome]

Vs a Heb 9 text that might say "once at the end of the year" which I think a lot of folks had hoped for.

I do not believe that is the discrepancy. Once a year is enough. And if we keep the discussion for the moment to Hebrews 9 only, in Hebrews 9:25 the word "often" is talking of the last 1300 day of atonement sacrifices because a few words later is "year by year", not daily. And that is the distinction we are trying to make here. Is it daily or yearly? If it is yearly, it talks of the day of atonement. If it is daily, then Adventism is correct that Jesus stayed in the holy place only before some later time.

 

[mmksparbud]

I do not believe that is the discrepancy. Once a year is enough. And if we keep the discussion for the moment to Hebrews 9 only, in Hebrews 9:25 the word "often" is talking of the last 1300 day of atonement sacrifices because a few words later is "year by year", not daily. And that is the distinction we are trying to make here. Is it daily or yearly? If it is yearly, it talks of the day of atonement. If it is daily, then Adventism is correct that Jesus stayed in the holy place only before some later time.

If I may say something here---the work of the High Priest, of course, was the forgiving of sins. Jesus did it once for all time yes. That is obvious. However, there are records kept of each individual. Not for God's sake, for He knows us individually---but at the judgment, each individual stands before God and the world and gives account. His record is kept for all to see---it's called a book, but who knows what that means in the heavenly realm. His work as the High priest is to have each individual recorded as to whether his name will be I in the book of Life or not---if it is struck out, there is a record of why. This is what does take some time and is done not all at once. Don't know what length of time that invovles for a God that a 1000 years if but a day. Does this help any?

 

[BobRyan]

Sorry, where in Hebrews 9 is it talking of the high priest Jesus going in and out of the sanctuary many times?

Heb 9
24 For Christ did not enter a holy place made with hands, a mere copy of the true one, but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God for us; 25 nor was it that He would offer Himself often, as the high priest enters the holy place year by year with blood that is not his own. 26 Otherwise, He would have needed to suffer often since the foundation of the world; but now once at the consummation of the ages He has been manifested to put away sin by the sacrifice of Himself. 27 And inasmuch as it is appointed for men to die once and after this comes judgment


Heb 10
11 Every priest stands daily ministering and offering time after time the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins; 12 but He, having offered one sacrifice for sins for all time, sat down at the right hand of God,


Heb 7
26 For it was fitting for us to have such a high priest, holy, innocent, undefiled, separated from sinners and exalted above the heavens; 27 who does not need daily, like those high priests, to offer up sacrifices, first for His own sins and then for the sins of the people, because this He did once for all when He offered up Himself.

By contrast He suffered once.. all offerings collapsed into one and enters once with the blood of sacrifice.

I'm sorry but is your reference in Hebrews 9:25,

Indeed it is pretty much all over that section .. 7,9,10 as noted above.

the very next sentence says "as the high priest enters the [hagion] year by year .

Heb 9
24 For Christ did not enter a holy place made with hands, a mere copy of the true one, but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God for us; 25 nor was it that He would offer Himself often, as the high priest enters the holy place year by year with blood that is not his own. 26 Otherwise, He would have needed to suffer often since the foundation of the world; but now once at the consummation of the ages He has been manifested to put away sin by the sacrifice of Himself. 27 And inasmuch as it is appointed for men to die once and after this comes judgment

Heb 7:27 .. "daily"
Heb 9:26 "often"
Heb 10 "time after time"

Compared to "just once for all time"

Vs a Heb 9 text that might say "once at the end of the year" which I think a lot of folks had hoped for.

I do not believe that is the discrepancy. Once a year is enough.

But nothing in Hebrews 7 "daily" and Hebrews 9 "often" and Hebrew 10 "time after time" deals with just one offering. The whole point in Hebrews 9 is one offering - and one entry into the Sanctuary with that offering.

Heb 9
25 Nor yet that he should offer himself often, as the high priest entereth into the holy place every year with blood of others;KJV

How "often" does the high priest enter the most holy place? once? at the end of the year??

The context for 9 is in 7. Where the High Priest enters daily... sacrifice after sacrifice... entry after entry.

Heb 7
27 Who needeth not daily, as those high priests, to offer up sacrifice, first for his own sins, and then for the people's: for this he did once, when he offered up himself.

. If it is daily, then Adventism is correct that Jesus stayed in the holy place only before some later time.

Agreed. If Hebrews cannot restrict itself to the high priest just going into the Most Holy Place for the Day of Atonement service,, if instead it includes the work of Christ as High Priest in the daily service - then indeed the Adventist doctrine is correct.

 

[YouAreAwesome]

there are records kept of each individual

Revelation 20:12,

I saw the dead, both great and small, standing before God’s throne. And the books were opened, including the Book of Life. And the dead were judged according to what they had done, as recorded in the books.​

There are the dead and the Living. The dead are judged according to what is the "books". The Living are in the Book of Life, literally, spiritually, the Word of God, Jesus. Jesus does not judge believers.

"Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life" (John 5:24)​

"He who believes in Him is not judged; he who does not believe has been judged already; because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God" (John 3:18)​

"There is therefore now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus" (Romans 8:1)​

“I have been crucified with Christ; it is no longer I who live but Christ who lives in me…” (Gal 2:20)​

“But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, even to those who believe in His name” (John 1:12)​

There is only judgement for the dead. The righteous have already been judged to death on the cross with Jesus and live in the full assurance of salvation with full knowledge of completeness. Absolutely crucial because this is the gospel good news! If you agree in all of this, then great! Because the timing of how it happens is not as important, but what I've found from the Adventists I know who believe in the Investigative Judgment is they are confused about judgement. They think they will have to stand before God and see if they are in fact saved or not. In a survey in 2003, 70% of Adventists did not know if they would be saved or not.

 

[mmksparbud]

I already said that Jesus starts with the dead. When He comes, His decision will have already been made, for He comes only for the saved at the 1st resurrection. Judgment day (of the wicked) is after the 2nd resurrection. That is after the 1000 years. Judgement day is not if they will be saved or lost---those that arise on that 2nd resurrection have already been determined to be lost, it's a matter of presenting their record before everyone and for everyone to acknowledge that God's Judgments are just and every knee shall bow.


Rev 20:5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
Rev 20:6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.
2Pe_2:9 The Lord knoweth how to deliver the godly out of temptations, and to reserve the unjust unto the day of judgment to be punished:

Jas_5:9 Grudge not one against another, brethren, lest ye be condemned: behold, the judge standeth before the door.
1Pe_4:5 Who shall give account to him that is ready to judge the quick and the dead.
Rev_6:10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?
Rev_19:11 And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.

Joh_5:22 For the Father judgeth no man, but hath committed all judgment unto the Son:
Joh_5:27 And hath given him authority to execute judgment also, because he is the Son of man.
Joh_5:30 I can of mine own self do nothing: as I hear, I judge: and my judgment is just; because I seek not mine own will, but the will of the Father which hath sent me.

There are many who think they are saved---but are not. Jesus is not here talking about the wicked---these are people who claim to be His followers.

Mat 7:21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
Mat 7:22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
Mat 7:23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

I do not know where you get your survey from---but we are to trust in Jesus for our salvation. It is through Him that we are to overcome.
1Th_1:5 For our gospel came not unto you in word only, but also in power, and in the Holy Ghost, and in much assurance; as ye know what manner of men we were among you for your sake.
Heb_6:11 And we desire that every one of you do shew the same diligence to the full assurance of hope unto the end:
Heb_10:22 Let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled from an evil conscience, and our bodies washed with pure water.

 

[YouAreAwesome]

It is through Him that we are to overcome.

Less than 70% did not know if they will be saved (I misread this sorry, but it is significant either way -- here is the source)

Why are Adventists confused if they will be saved or not? The investigative judgement. That's the only reason. The idea that Jesus judges believers to see if they are saved or not. How does this idea fit with the final three verses you listed?

1Th_1:5 For our gospel came not unto you in word only, but also in power, and in the Holy Ghost, and in much assurance; as ye know what manner of men we were among you for your sake.

Heb_6:11 And we desire that every one of you do shew the same diligence to the full assurance of hope unto the end:

Heb_10:22 Let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled from an evil conscience, and our bodies washed with pure water.​

Where is the full assurance if we are still going to be judged? No, our judgement already happened when we died in Christ. We no longer live, Christ lives in us and does He judge Himself? Of course not.

All these verse you quote are in the past and the present, not in the future:

Joh_5:22 For the Father judgeth no man, but hath committed all judgment unto the Son:

Joh_5:27 And hath given him authority to execute judgment also, because he is the Son of man.

Joh_5:30 I can of mine own self do nothing: as I hear, I judge: and my judgment is just; because I seek not mine own will, but the will of the Father which hath sent me.​

Jesus is not speaking of future judgment on the grand scale per se, but present judgment and past judgment and future judgment by giving salvation to the individual. John 5:24 is key:

Very truly I tell you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be judged but has crossed over from death to life.​

Do you agree?

 

[BobRyan]

Revelation 20:12,

I saw the dead, both great and small, standing before God’s throne. And the books were opened, including the Book of Life. And the dead were judged according to what they had done, as recorded in the books.​

There are the dead and the Living. The dead are judged according to what is the "books".

The saints are resurrected at the second coming event of Rev 19 - Rev 20:4
Rev 20
4 Then I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was given to them. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony of Jesus and because of the word of God, and those who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received the mark on their forehead and on their hand; and they came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years.

The "rest" (which are the wicked) do not get resurrected until AFTER the 1000 years.
5 The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were completed.

This is what is said of the saints in the first resurrection
Rev 20:5 ...This is the first resurrection. 6 Blessed and holy is the one who has a part in the first resurrection; over these the second death has no power,



So then what happens after the 1000 years? the wicked "Come to life" according to Rev 20:5
And are judged - and cast into the lake of fire -- they suffer the "Second death"

Rev 20
11 Then I saw a great white throne and Him who sat upon it, from whose presence earth and heaven fled away, and no place was found for them. 12 And I saw the dead, the great and the small, standing before the throne, and books were opened; and another book was opened, which is the book of life; and the dead were judged from the things which were written in the books, according to their deeds. 13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead which were in them; and they were judged, every one of them according to their deeds. 14 Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire.

 

[BobRyan]

There is only judgement for the dead.

that is true in Rev 20 -- AFTER the 1000 years. And at that time the only dead - are the wicked and the only thing that is going to happen to them - is they will be resurrected and will suffer the second death.

But in Daniel 7 all are judged before the second coming.

It is that judgment that happens before the second coming that Paul describes in Romans 2:4-16, it is what Daniel describes in Daniel 7, and as Romans 2 points out some get life and some get wrath as a result of that judgment that happens before the second coming... before Rev 20.

 

[mmksparbud]

Less than 70% did not know if they will be saved (I misread this sorry, but it is significant either way -- here is the source)

Why are Adventists confused if they will be saved or not? The investigative judgement. That's the only reason. The idea that Jesus judges believers to see if they are saved or not. How does this idea fit with the final three verses you listed?

1Th_1:5 For our gospel came not unto you in word only, but also in power, and in the Holy Ghost, and in much assurance; as ye know what manner of men we were among you for your sake.

Heb_6:11 And we desire that every one of you do shew the same diligence to the full assurance of hope unto the end:

Heb_10:22 Let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled from an evil conscience, and our bodies washed with pure water.​

Where is the full assurance if we are still going to be judged? No, our judgement already happened when we died in Christ. We no longer live, Christ lives in us and does He judge Himself? Of course not.

All these verse you quote are in the past and the present, not in the future:

Joh_5:22 For the Father judgeth no man, but hath committed all judgment unto the Son:

Joh_5:27 And hath given him authority to execute judgment also, because he is the Son of man.

Joh_5:30 I can of mine own self do nothing: as I hear, I judge: and my judgment is just; because I seek not mine own will, but the will of the Father which hath sent me.​

Jesus is not speaking of future judgment on the grand scale per se, but present judgment and past judgment and future judgment by giving salvation to the individual. John 5:24 is key:

Very truly I tell you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be judged but has crossed over from death to life.​

Do you agree?

No. I'm not saying this right---When Jesus comes, all will already have been judged---He comes only for the saved at the 1st resurrection. Those that Jesus says He will tell them to depart from Him have been raised at the 2nd resurrection---they are the lost, and yes, He obviously is talking to people who think they died saved for they say they did all sorts of wonderous things IN HIS NAME. I am not saying that we have no assurance of salvation, we do. Never the less---it is Jesus Himself who said He will declare unto these people "Depart from me, I never knew you." God knows the heart. We can lie even to ourselves---but we can not lie to God, He knows when there is false worship.

 

[BobRyan]

Why are Adventists confused if they will be saved or not?

Confused?

notice what Romans 11 says on this topic.

Rom 11
19 You will say then, “Branches were broken off so that I might be grafted in.” 20 Quite right, they were broken off for their unbelief, but you stand by your faith. Do not be conceited, but fear; 21 for if God did not spare the natural branches, He will not spare you, either. 22 Behold then the kindness and severity of God; to those who fell, severity, but to you, God’s kindness, if you continue in His kindness; otherwise you also will be cut off. 23 And they also, if they do not continue in their unbelief, will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again.


==================== another example of that
1 Cor 6
7 Actually, then, it is already a defeat for you, that you have lawsuits with one another. Why not rather be wronged? Why not rather be defrauded? 8 On the contrary, you yourselves wrong and defraud. You do this even to your brethren.
9 Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived; neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor homosexuals, 10 nor thieves, nor the covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers, will inherit the kingdom of God.

===================== another example of that
Romans 2
3 But do you suppose this, O man, when you pass judgment on those who practice such things and do the same yourself, that you will escape the judgment of God? 4 Or do you think lightly of the riches of His kindness and tolerance and patience, not knowing that the kindness of God leads you to repentance? 5 But because of your stubbornness and unrepentant heart you are storing up wrath for yourself in the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God, 6 who will render to each person according to his deeds:

The success model
7 to those who by perseverance in doing good seek for glory and honor and immortality, eternal life;

The failing model
8 but to those who are selfishly ambitious and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, wrath and indignation.

9 There will be tribulation and distress for every soul of man who does evil, of the Jew first and also of the Greek,

The success model
10 but glory and honor and peace to everyone who does good, to the Jew first and also to the Greek.

11 For there is no partiality with God.

12 For all who have sinned without the Law will also perish without the Law, and all who have sinned under the Law will be judged by the Law; 13 for it is not the hearers of the Law who are just before God, but the doers of the Law will be justified. 14 For when Gentiles who do not have the Law do instinctively the things of the Law, these, not having the Law, are a law to themselves, 15 in that they show the work of the Law written in their hearts, their conscience bearing witness and their thoughts alternately accusing or else defending them, 16 on the day when, according to my gospel, God will judge the secrets of men through Christ Jesus.

 

[BobRyan]

No. I'm not saying this right---When Jesus comes, all will already have been judged-

True -- that is what Daniel 7 states.

 

[YouAreAwesome]

Confused?

notice what Romans 11 says on this topic.

Rom 11
19 You will say then, “Branches were broken off so that I might be grafted in.” 20 Quite right, they were broken off for their unbelief, but you stand by your faith. Do not be conceited, but fear; 21 for if God did not spare the natural branches, He will not spare you, either. 22 Behold then the kindness and severity of God; to those who fell, severity, but to you, God’s kindness, if you continue in His kindness; otherwise you also will be cut off. 23 And they also, if they do not continue in their unbelief, will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again.


==================== another example of that
1 Cor 6
7 Actually, then, it is already a defeat for you, that you have lawsuits with one another. Why not rather be wronged? Why not rather be defrauded? 8 On the contrary, you yourselves wrong and defraud. You do this even to your brethren.
9 Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived; neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor homosexuals, 10 nor thieves, nor the covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers, will inherit the kingdom of God.

===================== another example of that
Romans 2
3 But do you suppose this, O man, when you pass judgment on those who practice such things and do the same yourself, that you will escape the judgment of God? 4 Or do you think lightly of the riches of His kindness and tolerance and patience, not knowing that the kindness of God leads you to repentance? 5 But because of your stubbornness and unrepentant heart you are storing up wrath for yourself in the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God, 6 who will render to each person according to his deeds:

The success model
7 to those who by perseverance in doing good seek for glory and honor and immortality, eternal life;

The failing model
8 but to those who are selfishly ambitious and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, wrath and indignation.

9 There will be tribulation and distress for every soul of man who does evil, of the Jew first and also of the Greek,

The success model
10 but glory and honor and peace to everyone who does good, to the Jew first and also to the Greek.

11 For there is no partiality with God.

12 For all who have sinned without the Law will also perish without the Law, and all who have sinned under the Law will be judged by the Law; 13 for it is not the hearers of the Law who are just before God, but the doers of the Law will be justified. 14 For when Gentiles who do not have the Law do instinctively the things of the Law, these, not having the Law, are a law to themselves, 15 in that they show the work of the Law written in their hearts, their conscience bearing witness and their thoughts alternately accusing or else defending them, 16 on the day when, according to my gospel, God will judge the secrets of men through Christ Jesus.

I don't follow, what is the point you are making?

 

[BobRyan]

Why are Adventists confused if they will be saved or not?

Confused?

notice what Romans 11 says on this topic of salvation and assurance

Rom 11
19 You will say then, “Branches were broken off so that I might be grafted in.” 20 Quite right, they were broken off for their unbelief, but you stand by your faith. Do not be conceited, but fear; 21 for if God did not spare the natural branches, He will not spare you, either. 22 Behold then the kindness and severity of God; to those who fell, severity, but to you, God’s kindness, if you continue in His kindness; otherwise you also will be cut off. 23 And they also, if they do not continue in their unbelief, will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again.


==================== another example of that
1 Cor 6
7 Actually, then, it is already a defeat for you, that you have lawsuits with one another. Why not rather be wronged? Why not rather be defrauded? 8 On the contrary, you yourselves wrong and defraud. You do this even to your brethren.
9 Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived; neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor homosexuals, 10 nor thieves, nor the covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers, will inherit the kingdom of God.

===================== another example of that
Romans 2
3 But do you suppose this, O man, when you pass judgment on those who practice such things and do the same yourself, that you will escape the judgment of God? 4 Or do you think lightly of the riches of His kindness and tolerance and patience, not knowing that the kindness of God leads you to repentance? 5 But because of your stubbornness and unrepentant heart you are storing up wrath for yourself in the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God, 6 who will render to each person according to his deeds:

The success model
7 to those who by perseverance in doing good seek for glory and honor and immortality, eternal life;

The failing model
8 but to those who are selfishly ambitious and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, wrath and indignation.

9 There will be tribulation and distress for every soul of man who does evil, of the Jew first and also of the Greek,

The success model
10 but glory and honor and peace to everyone who does good, to the Jew first and also to the Greek.

11 For there is no partiality with God.

12 For all who have sinned without the Law will also perish without the Law, and all who have sinned under the Law will be judged by the Law; 13 for it is not the hearers of the Law who are just before God, but the doers of the Law will be justified. 14 For when Gentiles who do not have the Law do instinctively the things of the Law, these, not having the Law, are a law to themselves, 15 in that they show the work of the Law written in their hearts, their conscience bearing witness and their thoughts alternately accusing or else defending them, 16 on the day when, according to my gospel, God will judge the secrets of men through Christ Jesus.

==========================================

To which we find this response

I don't follow, what is the point you are making?

If you could point some text or statement in my post above where you are having some confusion I can help with that.

All the Bible texts above are pretty consistent on the subject of perseverance of the saints.