How do abortion supporters respond to this? I don't think there is a way to.

[Christopher0121]

I've heard that Belgium and Switzerland have some of the lowest abortion rates on earth, and they are Prochoice countries.

If memory serves me correctly, I read that the following contributes to this reality in these countries:

- Both men and women have extensive access to birth control and prophylactics.
- Everyone has health insurance.
- Health insurance covers birth control.
- Men and women have equal pay.
- Men and women receive a living wage adjusted for inflation.
- Women are guaranteed paid maternity leave to cover expenses while recovering and to bond with the child.
- State universities have subsidized daycare facilities.
- Health insurance covers counseling to address rape, domestic abuse, and incest.

The result is fewer women choosing abortion (around 5 per every 1,000 pregnancies).

In the United States:

- We're still arguing over health insurance providing birth control.
- Millions still do not have healthcare coverage that will cover prenatal, delivery, and post natal care.
- Women are not guaranteed equal pay.
- Women do not make a living wage adjusted for inflation.
- Women are not guaranteed paid maternity leave to cover expenses during recovery and bonding with the child.
- Public universities do not provide childcare.
- Millions do not have access to counseling or mental health social services to address rape, domestic abuse, or incest.

The result is... more women choose to fix their circumstance through an abortion (roughly 17 for every 1,000 pregnancies, that's over 3 times the number of abortions compared to Belgium and Switzerland).

Perhaps we should take a closer look at how other nations have addressed this issue.

 

[Christopher0121]

Here's the only prochoice argument I've heard that makes sense...

Do we really want the GOVERNMENT having more authority over a woman's body, and the fruit of her own womb, than she does?

This violation of human sovereignty cuts both ways. If the GOVERNMENT has the authority to FORCE a woman to carry a child to term and to deliver a child against her will, GOVERNMENT has the authority to FORCE her to abort against her will. Once the GOVERNMENT has authority over the womb, anything becomes possible, given the right circumstances. Imagine overpopulation and food shortages in the next 50 to 100 years. Do we want GOVERNMENT to have more authority over a woman's womb than the woman herself?

I'm a born again Christian. I have, and will, always admonish women to choose life. However, that choice should be hers, and hers alone, not some judge's or politician's, both only hoping to win a few votes by using STATE authority to FORCE her to give birth against her will. We simply have to accept that there are indeed circumstances in which one human being has the authority to end the life of another human being, abortion being one of those tragic circumstances.

God will judge. Christians shouldn't ever consider abortion for any reason, except maybe to save the mother's life. But then it can be said that a truly Christian woman should rather die before killing her unborn.

But as far as it concerns society as a whole, choice is the lesser of the two evils.

​

Thoughts???

 

[Calminian]

What are the murder of baby rates in Belgium and Switzerland? How many babies are killed per minute, per hour?

And isn't the fact that they are small countries with small populations?

 

[Christopher0121]

What are the murder of baby rates in Belgium and Switzerland? How many babies are killed per minute, per hour?

And isn't the fact that they are small countries with small populations?

If memory serves me correctly, both Belgium and Switzerland have below 10 per capita. Meaning they have fewer than 10 abortions per every 1,000 pregnancies.

The United States hovers at around 17 per capita, or every 1,000 pregnancies.

Per capita statistics are not effected by population differences seeing that they are based on a base number.

 

[Christopher0121]

It should be noted that abortion statistics in countries wherein abortion is illegal are incomplete. Seeing that abortion is illegal in these countries the vast majority of women who procure abortions do so illegally on the black market so to speak. They only become a statistic if there is a life threatening complication or the mother dies. Prochoice nations do better at tracking abortion due to abortion being legal.

 

[Christopher0121]

Archeologists have noted that abortifacients were common in the ancient world going all the way back to ancient Egypt and Sumer. Typically these were sought out and administered by midwives who specialized in fertility, delivery, and birth control. There is evidence that the use of abortifacients as part of a midwife's services took place among the inhabitants of ancient Samaria and Palestine, including among the ancient Hebrews. However, Scripture doesn't mention abortifacients at all.

The only text that remotely comes close to describing what many scholars view is an abortion via abortifacients is Numbers 5:11-31...

Numbers 5:11-31 New Revised Standard Version (NRSV)
Concerning an Unfaithful Wife
11 The Lord spoke to Moses, saying: 12 Speak to the Israelites and say to them: If any man’s wife goes astray and is unfaithful to him, 13 if a man has had intercourse with her but it is hidden from her husband, so that she is undetected though she has defiled herself, and there is no witness against her since she was not caught in the act; 14 if a spirit of jealousy comes on him, and he is jealous of his wife who has defiled herself; or if a spirit of jealousy comes on him, and he is jealous of his wife, though she has not defiled herself; 15 then the man shall bring his wife to the priest. And he shall bring the offering required for her, one-tenth of an ephah of barley flour. He shall pour no oil on it and put no frankincense on it, for it is a grain offering of jealousy, a grain offering of remembrance, bringing iniquity to remembrance.
16 Then the priest shall bring her near, and set her before the Lord; 17 the priest shall take holy water in an earthen vessel, and take some of the dust that is on the floor of the tabernacle and put it into the water. 18 The priest shall set the woman before the Lord, dishevel the woman’s hair, and place in her hands the grain offering of remembrance, which is the grain offering of jealousy. In his own hand the priest shall have the water of bitterness that brings the curse. 19 Then the priest shall make her take an oath, saying, “If no man has lain with you, if you have not turned aside to uncleanness while under your husband’s authority, be immune to this water of bitterness that brings the curse. 20 But if you have gone astray while under your husband’s authority, if you have defiled yourself and some man other than your husband has had intercourse with you,” 21 —let the priest make the woman take the oath of the curse and say to the woman—“the Lord make you an execration and an oath among your people, when the Lord makes your uterus drop, your womb discharge; 22 now may this water that brings the curse enter your bowels and make your womb discharge, your uterus drop!” And the woman shall say, “Amen. Amen.”
23 Then the priest shall put these curses in writing, and wash them off into the water of bitterness. 24 He shall make the woman drink the water of bitterness that brings the curse, and the water that brings the curse shall enter her and cause bitter pain. 25 The priest shall take the grain offering of jealousy out of the woman’s hand, and shall elevate the grain offering before the Lord and bring it to the altar; 26 and the priest shall take a handful of the grain offering, as its memorial portion, and turn it into smoke on the altar, and afterward shall make the woman drink the water. 27 When he has made her drink the water, then, if she has defiled herself and has been unfaithful to her husband, the water that brings the curse shall enter into her and cause bitter pain, and her womb shall discharge, her uterus drop, and the woman shall become an execration among her people. 28 But if the woman has not defiled herself and is clean, then she shall be immune and be able to conceive children.
29 This is the law in cases of jealousy, when a wife, while under her husband’s authority, goes astray and defiles herself, 30 or when a spirit of jealousy comes on a man and he is jealous of his wife; then he shall set the woman before the Lord, and the priest shall apply this entire law to her. 31 The man shall be free from iniquity, but the woman shall bear her iniquity.​

Here, the grounds for jealousy was typically a wife missing her period after the husband had been away for some time, leading the husband to believe she was pregnant by another man. Some scholars believe that the "holy water" or "water of bitterness" that "brings the curse" was one of these ancient abortifacients. This "holy water" (a solution used only for this purpose) was bitter tasting. It caused "the curse", meaning it induced a heavy and powerful menses. If the woman was unfaithful, this induced menses would cause her "womb to discharge" and her "uterus to drop". This result would render her barren. The purpose of this was to terminate any pregnancy relating to the adultery, the discharging womb being a testimony of her unfaithfulness. It was believed that if she were not with child, the solution would only cause menses, and she'd be able to have children after performing her required cleansing.

 

[GodLovesCats]

It should be noted that abortion statistics in countries wherein abortion is illegal are incomplete. Seeing that abortion is illegal in these countries the vast majority of women who procure abortions do so illegally on the black market so to speak. They only become a statistic if there is a life threatening complication or the mother dies. Prochoice nations do better at tracking abortion due to abortion being legal.

They don't track abortions of pregnancies caused by rape or incest? That makes no sense because crimes are publicized, including sexual assault.

It would be interesting to see how much impact abortion bans have in pro-life nations by reading a chart.

 

[Mel333]

God actually tells us the purpose of national laws. Their primary purpose is to protect the innocent and punish the guilty. By extension, they protect freedoms to everyone. They protect pregnant mothers from being murdered and should also protect unborn babies from being murdered. Common sense really.

Rom. 13:3 For rulers are not a terror to good works, but to evil. Do you want to be unafraid of the authority? Do what is good, and you will have praise from the same. 4 For he is God’s minister to you for good. But if you do evil, be afraid; for he does not bear the sword in vain; for he is God’s minister, an avenger to execute wrath on him who practices evil.​

You can't be pro choice and claim to be pro freedom, when obviously it's a choice to kill someone.

We live in an imperfect world with imperfect systems. You will just have to accept your laws.

I am pro-choice because that is what life is.

Life is being able to choose what the morally right thing to do is. God gave you free will but a moral old law to live by that all people fall short of. Even yourself.

If you judge according to the old law of Moses, you judge yourselves in the process.
Technically, you are against your own constitution and could be a criminal if judged according to the right that you don't want a woman to choose whether she can bear a child.

and lastly, making abortion illegal means you will need to change the definition of what murder is (which is defined as malice) and criminalise young women. Some of whom will get the death penalty in various places if they have terminated a pregnancy.

 

[Mel333]

Therefore - abortion should be illegal.

It is illegal for a mother to kill her newborn infant in the hospital. It should be equally illegal for the mother to kill her unborn child. The fact that the child resides in the womb shouldn't impact whether or not we protect its right to life.

I agree it is wrong to terminate a pregnancy however, you will never be able to criminalize abortion without revoking your freedom of choice laws. Which paves the way for changing the gun laws.

It is interesting the constitution. If you judge by the law of Moses then you judge yourselves. If all your laws were according to what was morally right, then your country would not have freedom.

 

[GodLovesCats]

Making abortion illegal means you will need to change the definition of what murder is (which is defined as malice) and criminalize young women. Some of whom will get the death penalty in various places if they have terminated a pregnancy.

I love this paragraph. All of the pro-lifers out there seem to deny the fact that if a girl or woman needs to abort pregnancy for a medical reason, she is not killing an innocent baby for the sake of ending its life. It would be totally immoral to charge a girl or woman with murder just because her pregency caused problems such as gestational diabetes, preeclaimpsia, or HELLP syndrome or is ectopic. It also is immoral to say a fetus is paying the death penalty because unborn babies are guilty of nothing.

 

[Mel333]

I love this paragraph. All of the pro-lifers out there seem to deny the fact that if a girl or woman needs to abort pregnancy for a medical reason, she is not killing an innocent baby for the sake of ending its life. It would be totally immoral to charge a girl or woman with murder just because her pregency caused problems such as gestational diabetes, preeclaimpsia, or HELLP syndrome or is ectopic. It also is immoral to say a fetus is paying the death penalty because unborn babies are guilty of nothing.

Yes. Also if abortion was illegal, there would be so many cases about proving whether a woman did in fact terminate her pregnancy or miscarry without malice.

Miscarriages would be surveillanced and how does one give evidence she miscarried rather than abortion?

Then all the social justice people would be advocating the 12 year old young woman in jail on death row to free her. Or the young woman who has to prove she miscarried.

It's one of those debates that will never end because it's about morality. The old moral law that everyone of us falls short of obeying.

But we have been given free-will (from God) to do the morally right thing. This is the oldest ancient law preceding the Law of Moses.

The new law is the Law of Grace that all Christians are called to walk in. (love god, love others as yourself). This might mean accepting people in sin and loving them just as Christ accepts you.

 

[GodLovesCats]

Yes. Also if abortion was illegal, there would be so many cases about proving whether a woman did in fact terminate her pregnancy or miscarry without malice.

Miscarriages would be surveillanced and how does one give evidence she miscarried rather than abortion?

Then all the social justice people would be advocating the 12 year old young woman in jail on death row to free her. Or the young woman who has to prove she miscarried.

It's one of those debates that will never end because it's about morality. The old moral law that everyone of us falls short of obeying.

But we have been given free-will (from God) to do the morally right thing. This is the oldest ancient law preceding the law of Moses.

I recently read an Instagram post by a woman who miscarried her second baby at 15 weeks. She wrote it was "a traumatic loss" and going into labor that early was "devastating." Her husband took days off work. They even knew it was a boy. The cause was pneumonia, so she felt sick when it happened. Governments would lock up people who give infants pneumonia if the babies die and this was murder.

Here it is: Tori Foles on Instagram

 

[SPF]

I agree it is wrong to terminate a pregnancy however, you will never be able to criminalize abortion without revoking your freedom of choice laws. Which paves the way for changing the gun laws.

It is interesting the constitution. If you judge by the law of Moses then you judge yourselves. If all your laws were according to what was morally right, then your country would not have freedom.

As a Christian first, and an American second, I wholeheartedly support making abortion illegal like it is in a number of other countries.

One of the primary duties of the secular law is to protect the innocent. You can’t get more innocent than an unborn child.

 

[Mel333]

As a Christian first, and an American second, I wholeheartedly support making abortion illegal like it is in a number of other countries.

One of the primary duties of the secular law is to protect the innocent. You can’t get more innocent than an unborn child.

You yourself then will be judged according to the law. Matthew 7:1-5

“Do not judge, or you too will be judged. For in the same way you judge others, you will be judged, and with the measure you use, it will be measured to you."

But I do understand that you want to protect the innocent. Which is a good thing!

How does one define who is innocent if all fall short of the Law of Moses (moral law)?

 

[GodLovesCats]

As a Christian first, and an American second, I wholeheartedly support making abortion illegal like it is in a number of other countries.

One of the primary duties of the secular law is to protect the innocent. You can’t get more innocent than an unborn child.

You have that backwards. People become Christians later in life because religion is learned. We were born Americans and have always been Americans.

 

[Mel333]

I recently read an Instagram post by a woman who miscarried her second baby at 15 weeks. She wrote it was "a traumatic loss" and going into labor that early was "devastating." Her husband took days off work. They even knew it was a boy. The cause was pneumonia, so she felt sick when it happened. Governments would lock up people who give infants pneumonia if the babies die and this was murder.

Here it is: Tori Foles on Instagram: “Read below for full story. So thankful for this family right here and miss having them right down the street! Our weekend together was…”

Yeh, it's a really tough debate because suffering will never end in this world. If you fix one area of suffering by banning abortions, you create a new area of suffering.

So this is why people should leave free-will alone and do what is morally right to do.

 

[GodLovesCats]

You yourself then will be judged according to the law. Matthew 7:1-5

“Do not judge, or you too will be judged. For in the same way you judge others, you will be judged, and with the measure you use, it will be measured to you."

But I do understand that you want to protect the innocent. Which is a good thing!

How does one define who is innocent if all fall short of the Law of Moses (moral law)?

God told Adam and Eve not to eat from the Tree of Knowledge. I have heard that means if someone does not know what sin is and lies, steals, etc. the act by that person is not a sin. Such people use this logic to call babies innocent.

Of course, in the court of law, we say a man is innocent if he is "not guilty" of the crime.

 

[GodLovesCats]

I posted this in a different thread and got no replies.

Question for all of the pro-life women here: If you were raped at age 15, how would you feel when people said nine months of your life don't matter and you can just adopt out the baby after 40 weeks? You are in ninth grade, can't drive or get a job, and suffer PTSD in this scenario. Imagine being that 15-year old girl.

 

[Mel333]

God told Adam and Eve not to eat from the Tree of Knowledge. I have heard that means if someone does not know what sin is and lies, steals, etc. the act by that person is not a sin. Such people use this logic to call babies innocent.

Of course, in the court of law, we say a man is innocent if he is "not guilty" of the crime.

Interesting it is you raise the Tree of Knowledge imagery.

The oldest law there is free-will. That God gave man free-will to eat from the Tree of Knowing good and evil.

 

[SPF]

You yourself then will be judged according to the law. Matthew 7:1-5

“Do not judge, or you too will be judged. For in the same way you judge others, you will be judged, and with the measure you use, it will be measured to you."

I’m more than OK to stand before God and be judged for believing it was wrong to kill His most innocent and vulnerable creation for convenience sake.

How does one define who is innocent if all fall short of the Law of Moses (moral law)?

You’re conflating issues. I would hope you’re intelligent enough to recognize the difference between innocent according to secular law and innocent before God.