How do abortion supporters respond to this? I don't think there is a way to.

[RaymondG]

If this argument had real barrens they would have to be set on real life reasons like.

Will this child be saved or not?

will this child be abused so bad they deny God?

will this child be blessed with heaven before the struggles of life on earth?

There are many other reasons i'm sure, we can not judge these things as God only know the question to them.

I said nothing to justify abortion. Im asking you about the God you serve. Can your God say "Go John, and live for 50 years!" Just to have a woman abort John because she didnt want him? Is this possible for the God you serve?

 

[Danielwright2311]

I said nothing to justify abortion. Im asking you about the God you serve. Can your God say "Go John, and live for 50 years!" Just to have a woman abort John because she didnt want him? Is this possible for the God you serve?

Well, God saves all, so, every baby that is aborted is saved by God, that is the good news.

The bad news is, people kill there babies.

There are some situations where the baby lives, even after being aborted, so god does intervene in some situations.

I'm not God so its impossible for me to answer your question fully.

 

[RaymondG]

Interesting debate. Spontaneous abortions. The ones that don't make it. The miscarriages.

Did God murder the child because he let it happen? Or is it just the laws of nature?

This wouldn't be defined as murder as the human legal definition of murder is human to human and intended malice.

One thing to note however, is that many believe these are whole persons whose lives are ended, never to have a chance to live again...most going to heaven.. If this is the case.....it has to also be the case for miscarriages......the most prevalent abortion.

Heaven must be packed now......hope there will be room for me....

 

[SPF]

The difference is, you are mixing law with your personal feelings. The law causes the ending of a life outside the womb, murder....this person was killed.....it does not currently say that for those inside the womb.

And your neighbor still has the free will to killl you....this kind of thing happens all the time....but we are now talking about protecting the unborn.....can we focus on them without talking about stopping murder outside of the womb?

If it make you feel good to call one, who was raped, a murderer, because she was not able to bare the emotional pain of keeping the child....by all mean, berate her. I find no fault in it.

I choose not to do so.....It that ok with you?

You're still missing the point. You're still not getting it. And you're contradicting yourself all over the place.

You said: "I believe XYZ is murder and wrong," is a poor excuse to try and take away the free will of another."

I think we both agree that it should be illegal for your neighbor to come over to your house and kill you because he doesn't like you, right? Does he have the "free will" to do that? Sure, he has the free will in the sense that he has the physical ability to do that at any time. But, you would agree that the right thing to do is to make it illegal for him to come over and kill you. Why? Why should we make that illegal? Well, you happen to believe that doing so would be wrong, right? The law ought to protect innocent people, and in this instance, you would be innocent, and therefore it should be illegal.

This is exactly the same mindset and reasoning that people who are anti-abortion use. I believe that killing an unborn child for a non-medical reason is immoral. It is wrong, and it is in fact murder. Therefore, I think it should be illegal to do so.

That makes sense. That is consistent. One of the functions of the law is to protect the innocent. The unborn are about as innocent and vulnerable as you can get. If someone believes that XYZ is murder and is wrong - that is the very best of reasons to make it illegal!

 

[RaymondG]

Well, God saves all, so, every baby that is aborted is saved by God, that is the good news.

The bad news is, people kill there babies.

There are some situations where the baby lives, even after being aborted, so god does intervene in some situations.

I'm not God so its impossible for me to answer your question fully.

You say with ease that abortion is murder, even though the law doesnt call it that yet...... Why cant you say with ease what you believe concerning the God you serve?

Can your God say Yes,,,,,,and have a human change it to no? Can you God say live, and a human say NO DIE, thereby usurping God?

 

[Mel333]

One thing to note however, is that many believe these are whole persons whose lives are ended, never to have a chance to live again...most going to heaven.. If this is the case.....it has to also be the case for miscarriages......the most prevalent abortion.

Heaven must be packed now......hope there will be room for me....

Yeh, it's a tough one that has no end to it unless you cure death itself.

 

[Mel333]

I suppose if you cured death, they'd be no freedom to choose life lol gosh.

I swear the debate about abortion was set up to debate forever into our death.

 

[SPF]

You say with ease that abortion is murder, even though the law doesnt call it that yet

Can your God say Yes,,,,,,and have a human change it to no?

Great quotes. God certainly sees abortion as a form of murder. So God says Yes. But humans have said No, it's not murder because they rationalize away the value. The Truth of course resides with what God says, not man.

 

[RaymondG]

This is exactly the same mindset and reasoning that people who are anti-abortion use. I believe that killing an unborn child for a non-medical reason is immoral. It is wrong, and it is in fact murder. Therefore, I think it should be illegal to do so.

That makes sense. That is consistent. One of the functions of the law is to protect the innocent. The unborn are about as innocent and vulnerable as you can get. If someone believes that XYZ is murder and is wrong - that is the very best of reasons to make it illegal!

Actually I find your argument inconsistent. If you believe abortion is murder, why make any excuse for it, even illness? I would give my life for my children....why would you justify a mother killing her child to save her own life? unless you are starting to understand that removing a fetus is different from killing a child in the park. Why would you be ok with shooting a child in the park just because you are sick?

You need to analyze the consistency of your own statements.

 

[RaymondG]

Yeh, it's a tough one that has no end to it unless you cure death itself.

Thankfully we serve a one who has conquered death for us.....so we never have to go through it. unfortunately we have to stop trying to save the flesh to pass to life....for he who seeks to save his life shall lose it....

Thanks for the conversation.

 

[Mel333]

You're still missing the point. You're still not getting it. And you're contradicting yourself all over the place.

You said: "I believe XYZ is murder and wrong," is a poor excuse to try and take away the free will of another."

I think we both agree that it should be illegal for your neighbor to come over to your house and kill you because he doesn't like you, right? Does he have the "free will" to do that? Sure, he has the free will in the sense that he has the physical ability to do that at any time. But, you would agree that the right thing to do is to make it illegal for him to come over and kill you. Why? Why should we make that illegal? Well, you happen to believe that doing so would be wrong, right? The law ought to protect innocent people, and in this instance, you would be innocent, and therefore it should be illegal.

This is exactly the same mindset and reasoning that people who are anti-abortion use. I believe that killing an unborn child for a non-medical reason is immoral. It is wrong, and it is in fact murder. Therefore, I think it should be illegal to do so.

That makes sense. That is consistent. One of the functions of the law is to protect the innocent. The unborn are about as innocent and vulnerable as you can get. If someone believes that XYZ is murder and is wrong - that is the very best of reasons to make it illegal!

If abortion is illegal, then it would be criminalized and you'd have young women in jail forced to have the children or who'd get the death penalty, which is a form of murder as well.

It also will mean your freedom of choice law will be changed to no freedom of choice.

and you'll need to change the definition of what murder means. That is, abortion is intended malice and that a fetus is a human from the beginning of its development.

 

[RaymondG]

Great quotes. God certainly sees abortion as a form of murder. So God says Yes. But humans have said No, it's not murder because they rationalize away the value. The Truth of course resides with what God says, not man.

Understandable. For the God I serve......His word stands above all others. His desire cannot be usurped by the opinion or decision of man.

 

[SPF]

Actually I find your argument inconsistent. If you believe abortion is murder, why make any excuse for it, even illness? I would give my life for my children....why would you justify a mother killing her child to save her own life? unless you are starting to understand that removing a fetus is different from killing a child in the park. Why would you be ok with shooting a child in the park just because you are sick?

You need to analyze the consistency of your own statements.

My position is entirely consistent.

We begin with the principle that the life of the unborn is equal in moral worth and value as the mother in whose womb it resides.

The doctor then views both the mother and the unborn child as his patients. His goal is to keep both alive. However, because we live in a fallen world, things may happen (albeit extremely rare) where the life of one or both of the doctor's patients are at risk. When this happens, if the unborn child has reached viability, the hopeful outcome will be to save the lives of both. But if something happens and the unborn has not reached viability, then the doctor should do his both to still save both lives, but if he ends up only being able to save one life, then that will be tragic, but reality. However, the difference is in the mindset. Nobody is intentionally killing an unborn for convenience.

The position is entirely consistent.

Human beings begin their existence at fertilization. All human beings are created in the image of God and possess inherent moral worth and value. Killing an unborn human, created in the image of God and possessing inherent moral worth and value for convenience sake is immoral, and should be illegal.

It should be just as illegal as it is for your neighbor to kill you.

 

[Mel333]

My position is entirely consistent.

We begin with the principle that the life of the unborn is equal in moral worth and value as the mother in whose womb it resides.

The doctor then views both the mother and the unborn child as his patients. His goal is to keep both alive. However, because we live in a fallen world, things may happen (albeit extremely rare) where the life of one or both of the doctor's patients are at risk. When this happens, if the unborn child has reached viability, the hopeful outcome will be to save the lives of both. But if something happens and the unborn has not reached viability, then the doctor should do his both to still save both lives, but if he ends up only being able to save one life, then that will be tragic, but reality. However, the difference is in the mindset. Nobody is intentionally killing an unborn for convenience.

The position is entirely consistent.

Human beings begin their existence at fertilization. All human beings are created in the image of God and possess inherent moral worth and value. Killing an unborn human, created in the image of God and possessing inherent moral worth and value for convenience sake is immoral, and should be illegal.

It should be just as illegal as it is for your neighbor to kill you.

To make abortion illegal would mean taking away America's freedom of choice law (despite it being morally wrong).

and making it criminal then exposes the young women to the death penalty if abortion is defined as murder.

 

[Servant of Yeshua]

Forever now I have pretty much avoided this section because no one is really here to have their mind changed per say. However I finally found a video I love and want to know what pro-choice people think:

https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=451789505647679

For those who just want a text version essentially:

Thank you. My 2 children were both adopted at age 4 out of the foster care system. It is very damaging and wrong to tell all the children in foster care system ( most due to drug use or parents in jail) that for their own good, they should have been killed, rather than have the choice to have a life. Children born from parents who choose life are most often adopted because people are waiting years and years for infants in the US. I loved the video very much. Thanks for sharing. This is near and dear to my heart.

 

[Servant of Yeshua]

To make abortion illegal would mean taking away America's freedom of choice part in the constitution (despite it being morally wrong).

 

[Mel333]

Should someone have a right to own a slave? For many years it was legal and the Supreme Court gave it the thumbs up. A human life cannot be property.

It is not morally right to kill a baby.

As for slavery, it sounds like it's a different law altogether. That was passed prior to the freedom of choice one

 

[RaymondG]

My position is entirely consistent.

We begin with the principle that the life of the unborn is equal in moral worth and value as the mother in whose womb it resides.

The doctor then views both the mother and the unborn child as his patients. His goal is to keep both alive. However, because we live in a fallen world, things may happen (albeit extremely rare) where the life of one or both of the doctor's patients are at risk. When this happens, if the unborn child has reached viability, the hopeful outcome will be to save the lives of both. But if something happens and the unborn has not reached viability, then the doctor should do his both to still save both lives, but if he ends up only being able to save one life, then that will be tragic, but reality. However, the difference is in the mindset. Nobody is intentionally killing an unborn for convenience.

The position is entirely consistent.

Human beings begin their existence at fertilization. All human beings are created in the image of God and possess inherent moral worth and value. Killing an unborn human, created in the image of God and possessing inherent moral worth and value for convenience sake is immoral, and should be illegal.

It should be just as illegal as it is for your neighbor to kill you.

Yet it is illegal for your neighbor to kill you, but not illegal to abort in some places.....These are the facts. If you cannot separate facts from fiction and your emotions from discussions....it would be better left to those who can. Not sure why you continue to respond to my posts when we already know what each other believe. Our conversing is no longer fruitful....not sure that it ever was.

If you wish, you can have the last word, and I would ask that you allow me to converse with others in peace.

 

[RaymondG]

Thank you. My 2 children were both adopted at age 4 out of the foster care system. My daughter has had to endure hearing classmates argue using this exact argument. They dare to say it right in front of her KNOWING that she was adopted out of foster care. How hateful. Tell all the children in foster care that for their own good, they should have been killed, rather than have the choice to have a life. I loved the video very much. Thanks for sharing. This is near and dear to my heart.

Just because someone disagrees with you or your view, doesnt make them hateful. What happened to forgiving because we know not what we do? These are school children and you are calling them hateful because they arent yours...... If you had children born to you in the same position, it is possible they would say the same hateful arguments........ who knows?

It is easy to protect our own and defend our own beliefs........but to have compassion for, and love those who disagree with us......now that is the Love of the Lord.

 

[humblesoldier]

As a Christian, it is our duty to feel compassion for the sinner not for the sin being committed. It is not our duty to impose on anyone's will or for that matter, judge them. We should not get into a debate with them so as to argue and push them away from the Lord. Our duty should be to pray for them, teach them and pray for the laws to treat such who abort as though any criminal committing a murderous act.

If however, they insist on continuing in this path, and reject what the spirit is telling them, then we shall let them be and the Lord will deal with them. It is as any other sinner who has chosen their path. As it is said in Matt 7:13 For wide is the gate and broad is the road that leads to destruction, and many enter through it.

The reason I write this is because I have seen soooo many Christians just arguing, debating and bashing out these people and this is ABSOLUTELY NOT the way to go. These Christian folks don't seem to argue and debate with so many folks in churches who have divorced their spouses or are in the middle of considering such acts. STOP the arguing brothers & sisters! Educate them (not convince them), explain what the bible says about committing a murderous act, pray for them and allow them to choose their path just as the Lord has allow you to choose yours. If they choose wrong according to the Lord, then don't stop loving them or being there for them. Be consistently forgiving and insisting that the Lord still loves them and can forgive them if they repent.

This is the way we ought to be as Christians!