How did the Angelic Fall come about?

[LiAnne]

Thanks, Nephilimiyr. I find it quite amazing that no one has ever mentioned that to me before. I wonder what other gems I have yet to discover! I knew that the translators of the KJ Bible had some peculiar rules that sometimes changed the sense of what was being said eg if the same Greek word was repeated a few times in a passage the translation would provide a different English word.

 

[nephilimiyr]

Thanks, Nephilimiyr. I find it quite amazing that no one has ever mentioned that to me before. I wonder what other gems I have yet to discover!

There's no telling. I know I am still learning!

I knew that the translators of the KJ Bible had some peculiar rules that sometimes changed the sense of what was being said eg if the same Greek word was repeated a few times in a passage the translation would provide a different English word.

You can never have an absolutely perfect, 100%, translation in anything whether it's with the Bible or a novel and that's why I often do look at the original language in which a book of the Bible was originally penned. Everytime I do I get a better understanding to what the author really wanted to convey. I believe the KJV does a good job.

 

[ps139]

I believe that God showed the angels a vision of the Incarnation, and some angels, led by Lucifer, were too proud to worship a Man (Jesus) who was "below" them. Thus, satan sinned out of pride. I think that was the test the angels had to pass. 1/3 of them failed.

 

[nephilimiyr]

I believe that God showed the angels a vision of the Incarnation, and some angels, led by Lucifer, were too proud to worship a Man (Jesus) who was "below" them. Thus, satan sinned out of pride. I think that was the test the angels had to pass. 1/3 of them failed.

Where is this "vision of the incarnation" in scripture?

I don't see this in the scriptures that do explain Satan's fall.

 

[ps139]

Where is this "vision of the incarnation" in scripture?

I don't see this in the scriptures that do explain Satan's fall.

It is not in Scripture explicitly.
This theory contradicts nothing in Scripture. It is possible that it could have happened this way. I think this is the most likely cause of the fall.

 

[nephilimiyr]

It is not in Scripture explicitly.
This theory contradicts nothing in Scripture. It is possible that it could have happened this way. I think this is the most likely cause of the fall.

But how can it be possible when Ezekiel explains the fall of Satan clearly. I would disagree that this theory doesn't contradict scripture because I see that it does. Ezekiel says Satan fell because of the multitude of his merchandise Eze. 28:16.

Ezekiel 28:17, Thine heart was lifted up because of thy beauty, thou hast corrupted thy wisdom by reason of thy brightness: I will cast thee to the ground, I will lay thee before Kings, that they may behold thee.

28:18, Thou hast defiled thy sanctuaries by the multitude of thine iniquities, by thy iniquity of thy traffick; therefore will I bring forth a fire from the midst of thee, it shall devour thee, and I will bring thee to ashes upon the earth in the sight of all them that behold thee.

I see no vision here of the incarnate Christ. What I see is a supreme created being believeing he was greater than what he really was. His heart was lifted up not because of any vision but because of his beauty and because of his beauty and brightness his wisdom was corrupted.

 

[ps139]

But how can it be possible when Ezekiel explains the fall of Satan clearly. I would disagree that this theory doesn't contradict scripture because I see that it does. Ezekiel says Satan fell because of the multitude of his merchandise Eze. 28:16.

Ezekiel 28:17, Thine heart was lifted up because of thy beauty, thou hast corrupted thy wisdom by reason of thy brightness: I will cast thee to the ground, I will lay thee before Kings, that they may behold thee.

28:18, Thou hast defiled thy sanctuaries by the multitude of thine iniquities, by thy iniquity of thy traffick; therefore will I bring forth a fire from the midst of thee, it shall devour thee, and I will bring thee to ashes upon the earth in the sight of all them that behold thee.

I see no vision here of the incarnate Christ. What I see is a supreme created being believeing he was greater than what he really was. His heart was lifted up not because of any vision but because of his beauty and because of his beauty and brightness his wisdom was corrupted.

I see no contradiction here. This passage does not address the cause of Lucifer's fall, except that he in some way sinned, which we all know.

[font=Trebuchet MS,Verdana,Arial,Helvetica]Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day of thy creation, until iniquity was found in thee.[/font]

[font=Trebuchet MS,Verdana,Arial,Helvetica]By the multitude of thy merchandise, thy inner parts were filled with iniquity, and thou hast sinned: and I cast thee out from the mountain of God, and destroyed thee, O covering cherub, out of the midst of the stones of fire.

[/font]

"until iniquity was found in thee" - where did that iniquity come from? Why was he filled with iniquity? :by the multitude of thy merchandise...what does that mean? How do you define this? I also see it translated as "widespread trade., and "far-flung trade."

What is this?

 

[nephilimiyr]

I see no contradiction here. This passage does not address the cause of Lucifer's fall, except that he in some way sinned, which we all know.

The contradiction is that the theory seems to say that Satan fell because of jealousy but Ezekiel says that it was vanity. Satan became proud.

"until iniquity was found in thee" - where did that iniquity come from? Why was he filled with iniquity? :by the multitude of thy merchandise...what does that mean? How do you define this? I also see it translated as "widespread trade., and "far-flung trade."

What is this?

What was Helel's job in heaven? What does Ezekiel say this covering cherub's job was? What did he trade?

Eze. 28:13 says that this covering cherub was created with all sorts of gems and precious stones. He had a beautiful covering over him that made him the most beautiful and bright created being God ever created. It also says that he also was created with tabrets and pipes on the day he was created. This referrs to musical instruments and to hear this cherub sing and play music must have been something to behold!

In Eze. 28:14 it is said that he was the "anointed cherub that covereth" this means he had a minsitry or a priesthood. God says he has set him so, he placed this cherub in a possition of the highest order to minister and with his tabrets and pipes suggests that it was in the form of worship.

Verse 14 also gives more hints. He was upon the mountain of God and walked up and down the stones of fire. Throughout Ezekiel and the rest of the Bible it is shown that the cherubims lived and worked around the foot of God's throne. This cherub in Ezekiel wasn't just any ordinary cherub though because it says he was the covering cherub, "the anointed cherub that covereth". Simply put he was the top created being with the highest rank, he was with God his whole created life.

Through these passages I see the job of this cherub was to direct the worship of God's creation and present it up to the throne of God, to God himself. The merchandise refers to the cherubs coverings, his beauty and brightness and also to the worship that he collected from the rest of God's creation.

"until iniquity was found in thee" - where did that iniquity come from? Why was he filled with iniquity?

In Eze. 28:18 this question is answered. It says "the iniquity of thy traffick" and as the prior verses have explained this traffick was the worship that he brought up to God from all over God's created universe. for this cherub to have been anointed means he had to have subordinates. It's the worship of these subordinates had for God that this cherub collected and brought before the throne of God. The problem is that this cherub started to think that he should be able to save some of this worship for himself. Why? because he thought himself just as beautiful and bright and worthy of praise.

God cast him from heaven after his planned take over that is discribed in Isa. 14. This has created an empty spot in heaven. There is now a opening possition for this job. This is why I believe god created man! We are to take over the job of this covering cherub to worship and praise God forever and ever. This job was Satan's but he lost the job, we are Satan's replacement!