How did christianity get to america? im assuming on the may flower with chris columbus but i want to be correct. see i've got an arguement about why the bible should be left in schools. if the foundation of our nation is built on christian morals from our christian forefathers, (in god we trust, all men created equal, etc) then removing the bible, the moral compass for society, is like removing the color red from the flag. if the foundation of our country is based on bible believers then what right do anthiest have to quesiton it or complain about it? thats like going to someone else's house and complaining about the way they live...
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How did it get here?
- Thread starter fields316_2000
- Start date
atheist say that bibles have no place in schools and we should not teach our kids about the bible in a formal school.
but our constitution and bill of rights are formed from christian men who based our value system and laws based under the bible - ''in god we trust'' is on every dollar right?
before that, chris colombus came here from spain and spread christianity from his home land to the new world and thats how the land got christianity...
so if the law of the land was based on christian values, and the founders of this country had used the bible as a moral compass then why should athiest's even have the chances to complain about having the bibles in our schools?
my question is this - is my history on the subject of how christianity and the founders of this country correct?
but our constitution and bill of rights are formed from christian men who based our value system and laws based under the bible - ''in god we trust'' is on every dollar right?
before that, chris colombus came here from spain and spread christianity from his home land to the new world and thats how the land got christianity...
so if the law of the land was based on christian values, and the founders of this country had used the bible as a moral compass then why should athiest's even have the chances to complain about having the bibles in our schools?
my question is this - is my history on the subject of how christianity and the founders of this country correct?
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Freodin
Devout believer in a theologically different God
No. Christopher Columbus made his famous voyage in 1492, the "Mayflower" was 1620. Also, Columbus didn´t set a foot on what was to become the USA. He did nothing to "how the land got christianity".
The Constitution might have been formed by Christians, but it is not a document that propagates Christianity. The USA were not formed as a Christian country, but as a political union of free people.
The Constitution deliberately states that the government should not propagate a specific religion.
The Constitution might have been formed by Christians, but it is not a document that propagates Christianity. The USA were not formed as a Christian country, but as a political union of free people.
The Constitution deliberately states that the government should not propagate a specific religion.
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christopher actually made it to cuba and with him was christianity. at the time he was over re discovering the new world, europe was going through it's christian crusades / inquestions. if he WASNT christian, do you think the queen would have let him sail around for five years and then give him awards when he got back?
also the guys that formed up the foundation for the united states were christian and were followers of the christian movement. political leaders back in those days followed it deeply to be considered of vertue..behind closed doors they might have said other wise, but in public you'd be an odd ball not to 'follow the crowd'. with that our money reflects - as stated - in god we trust. ive been to germany and the douche and the euro neather have that..because they were set up under a caste system of kings and all that,so honor was due to people, not spiritual. usa has no ruler, but a president and in theory he answers to god. there fore, you are correct, state and religon cant mix. if it did we would be no different from china iraq and the rest that FORCE people to follow a god; in jesus' bible, he states that excepting god is YOUR choice and no one else's to make for you..this explains why the founders of usa would say 'we are christian, but you can choose the path of faith you think is best for you'..because that is the essence of christianity..
also the guys that formed up the foundation for the united states were christian and were followers of the christian movement. political leaders back in those days followed it deeply to be considered of vertue..behind closed doors they might have said other wise, but in public you'd be an odd ball not to 'follow the crowd'. with that our money reflects - as stated - in god we trust. ive been to germany and the douche and the euro neather have that..because they were set up under a caste system of kings and all that,so honor was due to people, not spiritual. usa has no ruler, but a president and in theory he answers to god. there fore, you are correct, state and religon cant mix. if it did we would be no different from china iraq and the rest that FORCE people to follow a god; in jesus' bible, he states that excepting god is YOUR choice and no one else's to make for you..this explains why the founders of usa would say 'we are christian, but you can choose the path of faith you think is best for you'..because that is the essence of christianity..
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also you are right..the mayflower contained the quakers..which is a separate voyage from different people..
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H
HRE
Guest
Mister fields, are you aware of when "In God we Trust" was added to the Dollar Bills? Are you aware of the religious beliefs of the founding fathers? Are you aware, by chance, of the Bill of Rights?
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just tell me..this is all coming together for a debate later..right or wrong i just want some answers directly..yup. i do know the religous beliefs of the founding fathers. if the mayflower got here from england in the 1600's when europe was predominate with christianity, chances are those riders where christian..2 + 2 =4
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Freodin
Devout believer in a theologically different God
Christopher Columbus was a Christian. One of his goals was to convert the inhabitants of the New World to the "true faith". So much is correct.
But CC did not have any influence of the founding of the USA, no more that the Pope did, or the King of Poland (both of which were Christians).
The Mayflower voyage was a Christian endeavor - Puritans (not Quakers!) who wanted to escape the perceived persecution in Europe (note: persecution by other Christians!). Many New England Upperclass families still hold these people as their forefathers.
But none of these Pilgrimfathers had the notion of founding a nation in the New World.
Yes, you are correct, most people who lived in the area of the thirteen colonies at the end of the 18th century were Christians, as were those who had settled and discovered these lands. Not being a Christian meant you had a good chance to be executed in these times.
But non of these people meant to found a Christian nation. The USA was made for political and economical reasons, and was founded on the principle of self-interest - the personal search for freedom and happiness. The founding fathers of the USA were well versed in the political-philosophical ideas of their time - and they knew that a nation based on a religious basis would lead not to freedom, but to despotism. They had seen it in European history.
The European nations were not build on a caste system of kings - they were build on a divinely ordained rule of Christian kings as representants of Christ on earth. In theory, they also answered to God - and no-one else.
But this system contradicted the new ideas, the ideas of the reformation as well as the Age of Enlightenment. The new nation was to be founded on the ideas that religion was NOT ruled by the state, but had to be a personal affair.
At this time, this wasn´t a major problem, because as most of the people were Christians, the ideas did not differ that much. But the USA of 1776 is not the USA of today. There are many non-Christians living there now.
Do you think these people are not Americans? Don´t they adhere to the principles that make them American citizens - that is: the Constitution?
So why do you think YOU should be allowed to complain about they way they live?
See, it is not the "Atheists" who come over to YOUR house and complain - it is a house were both, Christians, Atheists - and many other groups are living. So you have to find a common ground for the community areas, and let each group decorate their rooms as they like it.
If the Atheists were allowed to propagate there idea of "There is no God!" in public schools, it would be against the Constitution. If the Muslim made it obligatory to pray five times a day towards Mekka in schools, it would be against the Constitution.
And if Christians want to make it obligatory to pray and read the Bible in schools - this too is againsts the constitution.
The schools are part of this "common area". Religious ideas have no place there, should anyone object.
Your idea that "Christians founded the USA as a Christian nation" is simply not correct - and your reasoning "Christians were here first, so they can make the rules" is flawed (because you should adhere to the native religions according to this logic).
Nor is "The Bible is the basis for our laws and morals" a good argument. (Are there no laws or morals in other countries?)
The only argument I would see for the Bible "staying" in schools: it is a major part of our history and culture. But then I would advocate to take the Qu´ran and the Vedes into school as well.
But CC did not have any influence of the founding of the USA, no more that the Pope did, or the King of Poland (both of which were Christians).
The Mayflower voyage was a Christian endeavor - Puritans (not Quakers!) who wanted to escape the perceived persecution in Europe (note: persecution by other Christians!). Many New England Upperclass families still hold these people as their forefathers.
But none of these Pilgrimfathers had the notion of founding a nation in the New World.
Yes, you are correct, most people who lived in the area of the thirteen colonies at the end of the 18th century were Christians, as were those who had settled and discovered these lands. Not being a Christian meant you had a good chance to be executed in these times.
But non of these people meant to found a Christian nation. The USA was made for political and economical reasons, and was founded on the principle of self-interest - the personal search for freedom and happiness. The founding fathers of the USA were well versed in the political-philosophical ideas of their time - and they knew that a nation based on a religious basis would lead not to freedom, but to despotism. They had seen it in European history.
The European nations were not build on a caste system of kings - they were build on a divinely ordained rule of Christian kings as representants of Christ on earth. In theory, they also answered to God - and no-one else.
But this system contradicted the new ideas, the ideas of the reformation as well as the Age of Enlightenment. The new nation was to be founded on the ideas that religion was NOT ruled by the state, but had to be a personal affair.
At this time, this wasn´t a major problem, because as most of the people were Christians, the ideas did not differ that much. But the USA of 1776 is not the USA of today. There are many non-Christians living there now.
Do you think these people are not Americans? Don´t they adhere to the principles that make them American citizens - that is: the Constitution?
So why do you think YOU should be allowed to complain about they way they live?
See, it is not the "Atheists" who come over to YOUR house and complain - it is a house were both, Christians, Atheists - and many other groups are living. So you have to find a common ground for the community areas, and let each group decorate their rooms as they like it.
If the Atheists were allowed to propagate there idea of "There is no God!" in public schools, it would be against the Constitution. If the Muslim made it obligatory to pray five times a day towards Mekka in schools, it would be against the Constitution.
And if Christians want to make it obligatory to pray and read the Bible in schools - this too is againsts the constitution.
The schools are part of this "common area". Religious ideas have no place there, should anyone object.
Your idea that "Christians founded the USA as a Christian nation" is simply not correct - and your reasoning "Christians were here first, so they can make the rules" is flawed (because you should adhere to the native religions according to this logic).
Nor is "The Bible is the basis for our laws and morals" a good argument. (Are there no laws or morals in other countries?)
The only argument I would see for the Bible "staying" in schools: it is a major part of our history and culture. But then I would advocate to take the Qu´ran and the Vedes into school as well.
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very good point. im just trying to formulate a thorough opinion - thanks for your input. there is no knowledge that is not power...and you just sharpened my iron..thanks again for posting..
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Duchess Dines Out
Let the box of chinese food come to me...
Our fore-fathers, for the most part were not christian, they were deist. Infact Jefferson thought so much of the bible that he removed all the "unimportant" parts and left what is essentially a bible skeleton. It was eventually published and can still be purchased. It's called the Jefferson Bible.
Really, this isn't a christian nation at all, although, I wouldn't call it an athiest nation either. There is a belief in god outside of christianity. "In God We Trust" does not necessarily refer to the christian god. Infact, "under god" was added to the pledge within the past 60 years... I'm not sure of the exact date.
Really, this isn't a christian nation at all, although, I wouldn't call it an athiest nation either. There is a belief in god outside of christianity. "In God We Trust" does not necessarily refer to the christian god. Infact, "under god" was added to the pledge within the past 60 years... I'm not sure of the exact date.
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plmarquette
Veteran
What of Whitefield , Wesley , Jonathan Edwards , the Cumberland Gap revival ? 1700-1710Duchess Dines Out said:
http://www.reformed.org/documents/Whitefield.html
http://www.wfu.edu/~matthetl/south/five.html
http://members.aol.com/jonathanedw/Edwards.html
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jayem
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- Jun 24, 2003
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For the record, the earliest Christian explorer in the United States proper was Juan Ponce de Leon, who landed at what is now St. Augustine, Florida in 1513. He came to the new world on Columbus's second expedition in 1493. He stayed in the Caribbean area but sailed around trying to find gold and the mythical "fountain of youth." Being Spanish, of course, he was Roman Catholic. So, if you're looking for how Christians first came to what is now the United States, it was Ponce de Leon bringing Catholicism to Florida. And BTW, he was iron-fisted towards the natives, and IIRC, was actually relieved of his duties at one point because of his brutality.
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Duchess Dines Out
Let the box of chinese food come to me...
I can't really tell if your agreeing with me or not. The Deist god and the Christian god are differant. Most of our founding fathers were deist. They believed in religious freedom... that doesn't mean freedom to be whatever brand of christian you choose. I like living in a country that is rooted in a belief in god. However, a belief in god and a belief in christianity are two differant things. Our fore-fathers believed in god, but they weren't christian for the most part.
As for your links, I can't go to them because my dial up connection stinks and my computer will lock up if I try.Sorry.
As for your links, I can't go to them because my dial up connection stinks and my computer will lock up if I try.Sorry.
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Megachihuahua
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*The only argument I would see for the Bible "staying" in schools: it is a major part of our history and culture. But then I would advocate to take the Qu´ran and the Vedes into school as well.*
Apperantly they should, since this is the first time I've heard of the Vedes!
*Most of our founding fathers were deist*
I doubt that very much. But I'm an idiot, so my opinion is irrelevant.
*What of ... Jonathan Edwards...?*
Oh! I know him! He doesn't look 200 years old, though. Oh, wrong John Edwards!
Apperantly they should, since this is the first time I've heard of the Vedes!
*Most of our founding fathers were deist*
I doubt that very much. But I'm an idiot, so my opinion is irrelevant.
*What of ... Jonathan Edwards...?*
Oh! I know him! He doesn't look 200 years old, though. Oh, wrong John Edwards!
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Philosoft
Orthogonal, Tangential, Tenuously Related
I think you'll find that only a handful of them adhered to what is now modern Deism - the position that the existence of a creator can be arrived at through reason alone. Jefferson (even though he called himself a Christian), Franklin, Madison and Paine probably held deistic belief systems similar to modern Deism.Duchess Dines Out said:
The important part of this is that classical Deism used to refer to variants of Christianity that rejected one or more metaphysical attributes like revelation, miracles and Biblical literalism. By that definition, the founders, who were by and large Enlightenment thinkers, probably qualify as classical Deists by a substantial majority.
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Prometheus_ash
Metaphysical Bet Taker
Duchess Dines Out said:
It was added in the 1950's to diferentiate our country from the officially atheist communist countries. With the cold war over, some thought it would be prudent to take it out. Personally, I would not mind if it were taken out, though to be honest I thought the guy that challenged it did so at a porrly chosen time and thus wasted taxpayer money.
-Ash
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