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How did Easter really happen

klewlis

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Geisler's "A General Introduction to the Bible" goes into some of the arguments for the conservative side... it at least gives a good jumping off point.

As for the supposed discrepancies in the easter story, don't forget that you are looking at it from a modern view of "accuracy" and "fact". The ancients did not think as we do. It was extremely common in Graeco-Roman literature to take a story that everyone knew, twist it up, tear it apart, and take only the pieces you wanted so that you could prove your point.

From Kitto's "The Greeks":
"As the Greek is trying not to give a representative picture of life, but to express one conception, as forcibly and as clearly as he can, the form that he achieves is much more logical and taut. . .[comparison of "Agamemnon" to "Antony and Cleopatra"]. . . Aeschylus, like Shakespeare, had a long and complex story to work with. The difference is that Aeschylus tears his to bits, and with the bits he begins to construct a play about a certain conception of justice: roughly speaking, that retributive justice inflicted in plain revenge leads to chaos. His framework is not the story, but this conception. Those bits of the story which he does not want. . . he throws away, and those which he does want he uses not in chronological order, but in the order that suits him.
(He is able to treat the story in this way because his audience knew its main outline already. One great advantage in using myth was that the dramatist was saved the tedious business of exposition.) He is, in this special sense, creating something new, the Form is entirely under his own control. His theme. . . he states a first, a second, a third time, with ever increasing tension, and the result is a logical, beautiful and powerful structure. All Greek plays are, in this way, built on a single conception, and nothing that does not directly contribute to it is admitted."

I see a lot of this happening in the gospels. They're stories, told to illustrate truth--they are not meant to be modern academic theses. Ancient literature also focused on psychology and meaning rather than linear facts--for example, when Tacitus wrote a biography of his father-in-law Agricola, instead of giving a linear list of events from Agricola's life, as a modern biography would, he wrote about a single event which he felt described Agricola's character. This one event portrayed all that Tacitus felt was important about Agricola's nature.

Richard Burridge, quoted in "Four Faces" by Mark Tully, said:
"we have to look at the Gospels with a first-century understanding of the notion of truth and the way in which facts relate to the truth, rather than understand them in terms of the twentieth-century debate between legend and facts."

I agree. :)
 
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Breetai

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Maybe a forgery. A good argument nonetheless! Maybe I shouldn't have brought that up, considering that I don't have much time to play with it. It would be great fun though! Josephus also makes reference to James, Jesus' brother in 20. Most scholars think that is authentic, although people will debate that too! The most interestin part about it, it that today the Roman Catholic Church contests that Mary was forever a virgin. If someone wrote that James was Jesus' brother (Origin quotes Josephus), then the early Christian Church believed that Jesus did have brothers! I find that quite interesting.

Anyway, it's the chapter 18 passage that is really under scrutiny. Meier, and a few others before him, suggest that the Christian elements of Jesus were later additions. Taking them out, we read:

About this time there appeared Jesus, a wise man. For he was a doer of startling deeds, a teacher of people who receive the truth with pleasure. And he gained a following both among many Jews and among many of Greek origin. And when Pilate, because of an accusation made by the leading men among us, condemned him to the cross, those who had loved him previously did not cease to do so. And up until this very day the tribe of Christians, named after him, has not died out.

This sounds a lot like Josephus, the Jew, now. Some Christian in the first couple centuries would've added the phrases: if indeed one should call him a man, He was the Messiah and for he appeared to them on the third day, living again, just as the divine prophets had spoken of these and countless other wonderous things said about him. I agree that these were likely additions to chapter 20. I've read through The Works some time ago and these things about Josephus claiming that Jesus is the Messiah really stand out and make you think; "did he just say that?". So, this is the view that I hold to on Josephus, that these three phrases were added.


FYI. When I said that "the Didache is as about as solid as date as your going to get from that time period.", remember that I'm only 23. If there is anything else, then I have not seen it, or at least recall seeing it, yet.
 
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michabo

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Breetai said:
Maybe a forgery. A good argument nonetheless!
How can a good argument arise from a lie?

About this time there appeared Jesus, a wise man. For he was a doer of startling deeds, a teacher of people who receive the truth with pleasure. And he gained a following both among many Jews and among many of Greek origin. And when Pilate, because of an accusation made by the leading men among us, condemned him to the cross, those who had loved him previously did not cease to do so. And up until this very day the tribe of Christians, named after him, has not died out.

This sounds a lot like Josephus, the Jew, now.
Calling a heretical preacher a "wise man" and saying he tought the truth? It doesn't sound like Josephus the Jew!

Josephus was also a powerful military man (general? I forget) and he was a fervent defender of the status quo. He devoted much time to attacking philosophers and rabble rousers who would seek to change society, and Jesus is just the sort of disreputable character that would make the bile rise in Josephus's throat. This quote certainly doesn't sound like Josephus the general.

For these reasons and others, these are taken to be obvious christian interpolations. Because of this, I think I heard Josephus mentioned by Lee Strobel, but I can't think of any other christian apologists.
 
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michabo

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Interesting. I know nothing about the Didache. In a week or two I'll try to look into it - thanks for the tip. It's always good to learn something, and you're certainly teaching me.

I don't know if I'll have internet access for a while so I might disappear but I'll be back :)

see ya soon...
 
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