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BornAgainGrace414

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I am having a discussion, and this person said this to me.. and belives it is what's in the Bible. Can someone help me articulate a response as I am having trouble doing so.
Much love and blessings! =)
...
Jesus died for EVERYONE'S sins, right? If you agree with that, then you understand that he died even for those that don't believe in HIM. He also said that you could deny him, but never deny his father. I do believe that Jesus died for everyone's sins, I don't believe one must believe in him in order to be saved. Is that where you were going? Anyone can live according to Jesus's words, they don't have to believe he was the son of God to do so. Besides, it is his message that is important, not necessarily the messenger. I just can not believe that those that have other faiths are wrong. God scattered the people and gave them different tongues because he never again wanted everyone to believe the same.
 

St_Worm2

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I am having a discussion, and this person said this to me.. and belives it is what's in the Bible. Can someone help me articulate a response as I am having trouble doing so.
Much love and blessings! =)
...
Jesus died for EVERYONE'S sins, right? If you agree with that, then you understand that he died even for those that don't believe in HIM. He also said that you could deny him, but never deny his father. I do believe that Jesus died for everyone's sins, I don't believe one must believe in him in order to be saved. Is that where you were going? Anyone can live according to Jesus's words, they don't have to believe he was the son of God to do so. Besides, it is his message that is important, not necessarily the messenger. I just can not believe that those that have other faiths are wrong. God scattered the people and gave them different tongues because he never again wanted everyone to believe the same.

Hi BornAgainGrace414, first off, Merry Christmas and welcome to CF .. :wave:

Now, as far as your friend's beliefs are concerned, it's kind of hard to know where to begin .. :o Did the Lord die for "everyone's" sins? Do you have to "believe" in Him to be saved? Here is some of what the Bible has to say:
"He who believes in the Son has eternal life; but he who does not obey the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him." John 3:36

"For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life. For God did not send the Son into the world to judge the world, but that the world might be saved through Him. He who believes in Him is not judged; he who does not believe has been judged already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God" John 3:16-18

"Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned" Mark 16:16

"God has given us eternal life, and this life is in His Son. He who has the Son has the life; he who does not have the Son of God does not have the life" 1 John 5:11-12
 
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hedrick

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There's two separate questions in the OP, salvation and obeying Jesus' teachings.

A number of Christians suspect that some non-Christians may be saved by Christ, even they don't know it's him.

But this is a separate question from your statement about following Jesus' teachings. Jesus certainly talked about ways to live that a non-Christian could do. But he taught those things specifically as ethics appropriate for the Kingdom of God, which he was bringing about. He said he was dying to establish that Kingdom. And the motivation for most of his teachings was the love of God.

You can certainly do some of the things Jesus taught without being a Christian. But you'll miss much of their point.
 
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3rdHeaven

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I am having a discussion, and this person said this to me.. and belives it is what's in the Bible. Can someone help me articulate a response as I am having trouble doing so.
Much love and blessings! =)
...
Jesus died for EVERYONE'S sins, right? If you agree with that, then you understand that he died even for those that don't believe in HIM. He also said that you could deny him, but never deny his father. I do believe that Jesus died for everyone's sins, I don't believe one must believe in him in order to be saved. Is that where you were going? Anyone can live according to Jesus's words, they don't have to believe he was the son of God to do so. Besides, it is his message that is important, not necessarily the messenger. I just can not believe that those that have other faiths are wrong. God scattered the people and gave them different tongues because he never again wanted everyone to believe the same.

Same God different names idea I believe. I first ran across this idea in comparative religion studies and read a bit more on it from Joesph Campbell in the Masks of God.

Basically the idea consists of religion as pointers to God, like road signs and not very good road signs at that. Another way it's been described is religion is a prism and god is the Light that shines thru it. The result is many different colors from the same Light.

This is different then Universal Salvation tho some of it has bearing here too. The idea is basically no one religion has a monopoly on God or salvation. Not necessarily all will be saved, however one could subscribed to those combined ideas as well.

Is that the direction your friend was coming from you think?
 
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It's like Grandpa inviting the family over to swim in his pool anytime, but then a grandson stopping by to swim without saying hello. Not a life one would be proud of living.

It's the classic error of taking the gift but not thanking the giver.

If the gift and invitation are to spend eternity with God, then why would it benefit someone to avoid God while here on this earth, and then hope to spend eternity with Him? Making no effort to get to know this host. Would you stay at a stranger's house... especially if you'd refused to talk with them earlier?

Jesus died once, for all. The price was paid for everyone's redemption. But the pivot point of salvation happens when we accept that offer, yield ourselves to Him, and repent. In a sense his logic followed some of the doctrine, but not all of it.
 
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BornAgainGrace414

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These forums are a blessing.
This is actually my gf's mother I'm speaking with.
It worries me, even though there's a lot of time, that my upcoming child will be exposed to these ideas.
All of your comments help me. And the verses you gave apply directly to the conversation!
I posted another thread earlier and got some great feedback as well as to not be too pushy, but let the Holy Spirit do His work.

Some of the points she gave I think apply directly to, Thou shall not put strange Gods before me.
 
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St_Worm2

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Besides, it is his message that is important, not necessarily the messenger.

One of the problems your friend has here is the fact the the "message" is all about the "Messenger". Here is but the smallest of samplings:
"Unto us a child is born, unto us a Son is given: And the government shall be upon His shoulder: And His name shall be called Wonderful, Counseller, the mighty God, the everlasting Father, the Prince of Peace. Of the increase of His government and peace there shall be no end, upon the throne of David, and upon His kingdom, to order it, and to establish it with judgment and with justice from henceforth and forevermore" Isaiah 9:6-7

"There were shepherds abiding in the field, keeping watch over their flock by night. And, lo, the angel of the Lord came upon them, and the glory of the Lord shone round about them: and they were sore afraid. And the angel said unto them, Fear not: for, behold, I bring you good tidings of great joy, which shall be to all people. For unto you is born this day in the city of David a Saviour, which is Christ the Lord" Luke 2:8-11

"Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me" John 14:6

"There is salvation in no one else; for there is no other name under heaven that has been given among men by which we must be saved" Acts 4:12

"In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was in the beginning with God. All things came into being by Him, and apart from Him nothing came into being that has come into being: John 1:1-3

"He is the image of the invisible God, the first-born of all creation. For by Him all things were created, both in the heavens and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities—all things have been created by Him and for Him" Colossian 1:15-16
 
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St_Worm2

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I just can not believe that those that have other faiths are wrong.

Again, the Bible seems to have a different opnion:
"Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me" John 14:6

"There is salvation in no one else; for there is no other name under heaven that has been given among men by which we must be saved" Acts 4:12
 
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St_Worm2

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God scattered the people and gave them different tongues because he never again wanted everyone to believe the same.

Hmm, so God intentionally scattered the people of Babel (Genesis 11) so that they would begin to worship false Gods and have little or no hope of redemption as a result. Does that sound like the God of the Bible to you? Why would He do that?

Of course, your friend does make a good point about "tongues" because there are certainly no French, German, Russian, Italian, and/or English speaking Christians who believe the same thing .. ;)


"You shall have no other gods before Me. You shall not make for yourself an idol,
or any likeness of what is in heaven above or on the earth beneath or in the water under the earth.
You shall not worship them or serve them"
Genesis 20: 3-5a
(the first & second of 10 Commandments)
 
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chilehed

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I apologize in advance for the long post, but deep questions often require lengthy answers.

On this topic there isn't one belief that's common to all Christians. Here's the Catholic view:

http://www.usccb.org/catechism/text/...hpt3art9p3.htm

“Outside the Church there is no salvation"

846
How are we to understand this affirmation, often repeated by the Church Fathers? Re-formulated positively, it means that all salvation comes from Christ the Head through the Church which is his Body:
Basing itself on Scripture and Tradition, the Council teaches that the Church, a pilgrim now on earth, is necessary for salvation: the one Christ is the mediator and the way of salvation; he is present to us in his body which is the Church. He himself explicitly asserted the necessity of faith and Baptism, and thereby affirmed at the same time the necessity of the Church which men enter through Baptism as through a door. Hence they could not be saved who, knowing that the Catholic Church was founded as necessary by God through Christ, would refuse either to enter it or to remain in it.​

847
This affirmation is not aimed at those who, through no fault of their own, do not know Christ and his Church:
Those who, through no fault of their own, do not know the Gospel of Christ or his Church, but who nevertheless seek God with a sincere heart, and, moved by grace, try in their actions to do his will as they know it through the dictates of their conscience—those too may achieve eternal salvation.​

848
"Although in ways known to himself God can lead those who, through no fault of their own, are ignorant of the Gospel, to that faith without which it is impossible to please him, the Church still has the obligation and also the sacred right to evangelize all men."​
The point is that God knows our hearts, and doesn't require us to know that which we cannot know.

Scripture says that everyone has some idea of God. It's undeniable that many people of other faiths are seeking God - they may have false ideas about Him but they're seeking Him nonetheless, and NO ONE can seek God except on God's initiative. The fact that they're seeking God, however imperfectly, shows that He is working in their lives.

Romans 1:18-21 says "The wrath of God is indeed being revealed from heaven against every impiety and wickedness of those who suppress the truth by their wickedness. For what can be known about God is evident to them, because God made it evident to them. Ever since the creation of the world, his invisible attributes of eternal power and divinity have been able to be understood and perceived in what he has made. As a result, they have no excuse; for although they knew God they did not accord him glory as God or give him thanks. Instead, they became vain in their reasoning, and their senseless minds were darkened."

So here scripture explicitly says that one can know God by natural revelation, right? Someone who does evil can’t legitimately claim that he never knew about God, because God made sure through creation that everyone knows him. The passage doesn’t say that they’re wicked because they don’t know God, what it says is that they’re wicked because they know God well enough and they reject him anyway!

A Protestant might say that that level of knowledge is not salvific, that you can’t be saved if that’s the limit of your knowledge of God. But there are two problems with that viewpoint. First, that would mean that people are lost because God requires them to know what they cannot know, and they cannot know it because God didn’t allow them to know it. That would violate God’s perfect justice. Second, it would mean that one can only be saved through the attainment of information which is hidden to all but a select few, which is the core of the gnostic heresy.

If one has to have heard of Jesus in order to be saved, then never having had the opportunity to hear of him is a really good excuse for never having heard of him. But the bible specifically says that even these people have no excuse for rejecting God, because they did know about him and they rejected him anyway. What gets you into hell is rejecting God. If you don’t know about Jesus then you can’t very well be culpable for rejecting him, because you can only reject what you know about. God holds us accountable only for what we know, and not for what we cannot know.

And so the Church teaches that even these people may be saved (not that they will be saved, but only that they may be saved) through the merits of Christ, by means of which we do not know.

I like the way C. S. Lewis said it in Chapter 15 of The Last Battle. In it, Emeth tells of his meeting with Aslan:
Then I fell at his feet and thought, Surely this is the hour of death, for the Lion (who is worthy of all honor) will know that I have served Tash all my days and not him. Nevertheless, it is better to see the Lion and die than to be Tisroc of the world and live and not to have seen him. But the Glorious One bent down his golden head and touched my forehead with his tongue and said, "Son, thou art welcome." But I said, "Alas, Lord, I am no son of thine but the servant of Tash." He answered, "Child, all the service thou hast done to Tash, I account as service done to me." Then by reason of my great desire for wisdom and understanding, I overcame my fear and questioned the Glorious One and said "Lord, is it then true, as the Ape said, that thou and Tash are one"" The Lion growled so that the earth shook (but his wrath was not against me) and said, "It is false. Not because he and I are one, but because we are opposites - I take to me the services which thou hast done to him. For he and I are of such different kinds that no service which is vile can be done to me, and none which is not vile can be done to him. Therefore, if any man swear by Tash and keep his oath for the oath's sake, it is by me that he has truly sworn, though he know it not, and it is I who reward him. And if any man do cruelty in my name, then, though he says the name Aslan, it is Tash whom he serves and by Tash his deed is accepted. Dost thou understand, Child?" I said "Lord, thou knowest how much I understand." But I said also (for the truth constrained me), "Yet I have been seeking Tash all my days." "Beloved," said the Glorious One, "unless thy desire had been for me thou wouldst not have sought so long and so truly. For all find what they truly seek."​
Anyone who is saved, is saved through Christ.

Jesus said that He has other sheep who are “not of this fold”, and it's not for me to decree that God has no way that they might be brought home, merely because I've been blessed by the knowledge of the best and surest road and they haven't. But be certain: whatever road He provides, will be due only and entirely because of the grace of Christ.
 
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Harry3142

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BornAgainGrace414-

Your girlfriend's mother has the same belief that some others do, namely, that if we simply do what Jesus told his disciples to do, we'll be OK. But it doesn't end with Jesus, or even start with him. It's the judgement of God the Father that we must be ready to answer to, and when he sent Jesus to us God had a purpose far above merely giving us another set of laws to follow. He was mounting a rescue mission.

It is God the Father who has communicated to us that he demands perfection of any and all who would enter his presence. Being 'good enough' simply will not pass muster with him; either we are spotless or we are condemned.

But God the Father also knows that we can never measure up to his requirements due to our innate sinfulness. It's simply too far for us to reach. We couldn't even obey the laws and commandments which he gave us, and they are only the beginning steps to the righteousness which he requires. By failing at even superficially following him through the obeying of these laws and commandments, we had sealed our own fate if left to our own devices.

So God had a decision to make. Does he 'write us off' as unfit to enter his presence, or does he do something himself to remedy the situation? Fortunately for us, he chose to do something himself to remedy the situation, and so bridge the gulf between his requirements and our spiritual capabilities (or lack thereof). And what he did was send his own Son to fulfil the total requirements for God to see the people as truly cleansed of their sins.

Jesus' passion and death must be seen as 'a happening within a happening'. Pilate and the leaders thought that they were getting rid of a potential threat to peace and harmony in Judea, but God used their actions as his means of cleansing us of our sins. As the Old Testament described the annual sacrifice for the sins of the community as being the sacrifice of the lamb and the transferring of the community's sins onto the goat, which was then driven into the wilderness (symbolically driven away from God), even so the sins of all mankind were cleansed through the suffering of Christ at the hands of his captors and the seperation from God that he had while he was hanging on the cross.

But it didn't end there. By his rising again from the dead God verified through Christ that the penalty for sin had been forever paid. Death itself had been conquered, and it was death that was seen as the ultimate penalty for our sinfulness. Through Jesus' resurrection he broke the grip of sin on all of us through his conquering of its consequence, which was the loss of life itself.

But to not accept the sacrifice of Christ for us would be the same as saying that we don't want our sins to be paid for and transferred to another so that we can be cleansed. That would indicate that we either want to keep our sins on us, and thus remain in our sins, or we think that we, alone of all the people who have ever lived, with the exception of Jesus Christ himself, have remained sinless insofar as God is concerned.

And in regards to Jesus own role in this , he was far from being trapped by the authorities even in The Garden of Gethsemane. Instead, he was a willing participant, and even a fellow planner of this rescue mission. All too often, when we picture the time of his arrest, we see Jesus enclosed by a fence of some kind, making it impossible for him to escape those who have come to arrest him. But The Garden of Gethsemane was an agrarian business, with multiple entrances and exits. When Jesus went into the garden to pray that the cup pass from him, he was very close to an escape route, one of those exits.

If God had told him that he had cancelled the need for his sacrifice, there were steps only a few yards away from where he was praying which he could have walked up. And at the top of those steps was the road that connected Jerusalem with Bethany, a town that Jesus had visited on numerous occasions, so he would have been familiar with the road itself. In the dark of night, with the numerous trees that hid him from anyone who might try to see him, all he had to do was ascend those few steps, then walk toward Bethany on that road, and no one would have even known that he had left. He would have been long gone by the time they realized that he wasn't somewhere still in that garden. And in the darkness they would have never caught up with him, even if they had finally realized that he was on that road.

But instead of going to the back of that garden, ascending those steps, and then taking that road and thus saving his own life, he walked to the front of the garden, permitted himself to suffer the pain and anguish which followed, and thus saved ours. That was the importance that Jesus Christ himself attached to what transpired.
 
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This is actually my gf's mother I'm speaking with.
Ah-- I didn't connect the two.
But to not accept the sacrifice of Christ for us would be the same as saying that we don't want our sins to be paid for and transferred to another so that we can be cleansed.
 
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BornAgainGrace414

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Okay, How about THIS!?

Remember, the Bible was written by man, and edited over, and over, and over again. Whole books have been left out. Why? Before believing so faithfully in what it says, seek and so shall ye find. Seek the truth, and the truth shall be presented. If YOUR path is through the Bible alone, word for word, that is the path that God wants you to take. For me, any God that condemns a man to hell forever and ever for believing in Muhamed, yet living a righteous, serving life, is not a God I wish to believe in. IF this is how Jesus and God is, I want no part of it. However, I know God, and for me, that is not the case. Judge not, lest ye be judged yourself. I feel this applies in every single area and aspect of life, including beliefs. Jesus spoke in parables because he wanted his people to SEEK the answers, otherwise he would have written it in black and white. Let he who has eyes see and he who has ears hear.

I believe in most of what the Bible says, but mostly because I have sought the answers and they have come to me. I believe if we can remove the ego, so much more of God's way would be clear to us. I believe ALL religions have truths, and ALL religions have lies. For the most part, the religions that are present today I feel are only for "political" gain and control. Some of the most heinous acts have been committed in the name of God, or Christianity, or Catholicism, or Islam, or Judaism. The bottom line is, we are ALL sons of Abraham. God KNEW there would be whole groups of people unwilling to believe in Jesus, THOSE ARE THE ONES CHOSEN TO FIGHT the final battle of armagedon. IF we didn't have the non-Jesus believers, we could never rise to the 1000 year rein of the second coming of Christ. God NEEDS non-believers to fulfill the prophecy, as it is written.
 
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chilehed

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Okay, How about THIS!?
I don't understand - are what follows your words or his?

Remember, the Bible was written by man, and edited over, and over, and over again. Whole books have been left out.
That's nonsense. It's not as if we only have translations of translations of copies of translations. There are tens of thousands of samples of manuscripts going back to the First Century, and they were scattered all over the ancient world. The manuscript evidence is vastly superior than for any other ancient work... it's not even close.

Everyone I've ever heard claim that books were left out were speaking of the gnostic "gospels". Those books were left out because they didn't belong. They had no apostolic authority whatsoever, being written in the Second and Third Centuries in an attempt to legitimize non-Christian teachings. He might as well be claiming that the Passover Plot should have been included in the canon.

At best, those claims are the result of pure ignorance. But don't take my word for it, do the research yourself.

...I believe in most of what the Bible says, but mostly because I have sought the answers and they have come to me....
This and the rest sounds like he's relying on his own ability to read and understand Sacred Scripture. But as the Apostle Peter says, there is much in Scripture that is difficult to understand, which the ignorant and unstable distort to their own destruction.

He's acting as his own authority, which belies his claim to believe most of what the Bible says. If he believes any of it at all then he has to know that he's horribly at risk of deceiving himself, in which case he wouldn't rely on what makes sense to him.
 
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mike vorbach

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I am having a discussion, and this person said this to me.. and belives it is what's in the Bible. Can someone help me articulate a response as I am having trouble doing so.
Much love and blessings! =)
...
Jesus died for EVERYONE'S sins, right? If you agree with that, then you understand that he died even for those that don't believe in HIM. He also said that you could deny him, but never deny his father. I do believe that Jesus died for everyone's sins, I don't believe one must believe in him in order to be saved. Is that where you were going? Anyone can live according to Jesus's words, they don't have to believe he was the son of God to do so. Besides, it is his message that is important, not necessarily the messenger. I just can not believe that those that have other faiths are wrong. God scattered the people and gave them different tongues because he never again wanted everyone to believe the same.
John 3:16,Matt 4:17,Luke 13:3, John 3:5-7 , Rev 20:11-15
 
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