How could Adam and Eve have chosen to eat the apple?

[-V-]

Hi -V-,
I don't like repeating myself, but... I provided proof in an earlier posting pointing to a contradiction in relation to the creation of man. (See post # 69) Where is your proof that no contradiction exists?
Still waiting

You CLAIMED there was a contradiction, but never actually explained what it was.

 

[Kutte]

You CLAIMED there was a contradiction, but never actually explained what it was.

Dear -A-
Here is my explanation for the existence of a contradiction:
"God made man like his Maker. Like God did God make man. Man and maid did God make them. And God blessed them and told them, Multiply and fill the earth and subdue it; you are masters of the fish and birds and all the animals." Genesis 1:27-28

In other words, God told man to get off its behind and subdue planet earth, be in charge, rule over it. What we have here is a clear contradiction to the creation of two humans in a paradise setting called Eden.
It seems to me you are dodging the issue by not coming up with an explanation why there is no contradiction.'
If you need help contact your spiritual leader, or pray to God for guidance.
Still waiting

 

[-V-]

Dear -A-
Here is my explanation for the existence of a contradiction:
"God made man like his Maker. Like God did God make man. Man and maid did God make them. And God blessed them and told them, Multiply and fill the earth and subdue it; you are masters of the fish and birds and all the animals." Genesis 1:27-28

In other words, God told man to get off its behind and subdue planet earth, be in charge, rule over it. What we have here is a clear contradiction to the creation of two humans in a paradise setting called Eden.
It seems to me you are dodging the issue by not coming up with an explanation why there is no contradiction.'

There is no dodging, as you have not yet shown any actual contradiction. Exactly how does an instruction to subdue and fill the planet contradict Adam & Eve being in Eden?

 

[Kutte]

There is no dodging, as you have not yet shown any actual contradiction. Exactly how does an instruction to subdue and fill the planet contradict Adam & Eve being in Eden?

Hi -V-,
Good question. Adam and Eve while existing in a paradise garden, lacking knowledge of good and bad, walking around naked, were in no position to go outside this garden to conquer and subdue the planet. They also had no incentives for leaving this place since, supposedly, everything was already perfect and provided for them.
The only way out is, what fundamentalists love to call 'sin', to gain knowledge, go outside and face the realities of true life.
Did you ever consider what may have happened if Adam and Eve had not 'sinned'? After thousands of years they would still be wandering aimlessly around Eden, accompanied by thousands of descendants with no clothes on.
Smile

 

[mmksparbud]

In the first place---Eden was what the whole planet was called---the garden was just a special spot for them on that planet.
Gen_2:8 And the LORD God planted a garden eastward in Eden; and there he put the man whom he had formed.
It is called the "garden OF Eden"

Secondly---This was not a test of right and wrong. It was a test of obedience. They did not have to have any knowledge of sin, any knowledge of right or wrong. They certainly understood what "do this" "do not do this" meant. An innocent child does not have to know the end result of playing with matches, they know that "do not" means don't do it. They know what '"NO", means--It is the first thing a child learns, (even a dog)so did Adam and Eve. They had a world of trued and their fruit---this was one where they were told "No"---do not eat of this, they understood that and choose to disobey God, and to believe in what someone else said.

 

[-V-]

Hi -V-,
Good question. Adam and Eve while existing in a paradise garden, lacking knowledge of good and bad,

Again, the "they didn't know what good and bad was" is wrong. That's already been covered.

walking around naked, were in no position to go outside this garden to conquer and subdue the planet. They also had no incentives for leaving this place since, supposedly, everything was already perfect and provided for them.

I guess this never occurred to you: they were going to have children.

See, as a population grows, it takes up more space. Maybe you haven't noticed yet, but there's a few more people on the planet ever since Adam & Eve started reproducing. And, guess what, we've been working on that whole filling and subduing thing. So, you have yet to show what the "contradiction" is.

The only way out is, what fundamentalists love to call 'sin', to gain knowledge, go outside and face the realities of true life.

Straw man fallacy.

Did you ever consider what may have happened if Adam and Eve had not 'sinned'? After thousands of years they would still be wandering aimlessly around Eden, accompanied by thousands of descendants with no clothes on.

First, why are they "wandering aimlessly"? Second, you'll have to explain how that's relevant at all.

 

[Kutte]

Again, the "they didn't know what good and bad was" is wrong. That's already been covered.


I guess this never occurred to you: they were going to have children.

See, as a population grows, it takes up more space. Maybe you haven't noticed yet, but there's a few more people on the planet ever since Adam & Eve started reproducing. And, guess what, we've been working on that whole filling and subduing thing. So, you have yet to show what the "contradiction" is.


Straw man fallacy.


First, why are they "wandering aimlessly"? Second, you'll have to explain how that's relevant at all.

Hi -V-,
The whole planet was Eden? "You've got nothing but pure speculation there." (Quote)

Yes, the first thing a child learns is not to do this or that. But you conveniently forgot a second party in Eden, the one which taught you will know the difference between good and bad which is good if you want to gain the ability to overcome a challenge. Not to mention to subdue planet earth.

You are still insisting Adam and Eve were already aware of good and bad.
You're just guessing and expect us to take it as fact. Why for heaven's sake didn't their creator give them some other means for testing their obedience and not demanding to abstain from fruits containing knowledge of good and bad?

To be like God requires knowing the difference between good and bad. After their alleged 'sin' the 'lord' said, "Here the man has become like one of us in knowing good and bad..." Genesis 3:22 Wasn't this the intention of God when He created man and female? "God made man like his Maker, like God did God make man. Genesis 1:27
Ponder, ponder

 

[-V-]

Hi -V-,
The whole planet was Eden? "You've got nothing but pure speculation there." (Quote)

You have me confused with someone else.

Yes, the first thing a child learns is not to do this or that. But you conveniently forgot a second party in Eden, the one which taught you will know the difference between good and bad which is good if you want to gain the ability to overcome a challenge. Not to mention to subdue planet earth.

You're still confusing me with someone else.

You are still insisting Adam and Eve were already aware of good and bad.
You're just guessing and expect us to take it as fact.

No, it's not a "guess", it's the only logical conclusion. Holding them responsible for good/bad behavior only makes sense if they already know that doing bad would be bad.

Why for heaven's sake didn't their creator give them some other means for testing their obedience and not demanding to abstain from fruits containing knowledge of good and bad?

That "knowledge" NOT being simple factual awareness has already been explained.

To be like God requires knowing the difference between good and bad. After their alleged 'sin' the 'lord' said, "Here the man has become like one of us in knowing good and bad..." Genesis 3:22 Wasn't this the intention of God when He created man and female? "God made man like his Maker, like God did God make man. Genesis 1:27

What's your point?

 

[Kutte]

You have me confused with someone else.


You're still confusing me with someone else.


No, it's not a "guess", it's the only logical conclusion. Holding them responsible for good/bad behavior only makes sense if they already know that doing bad would be bad.


That "knowledge" NOT being simple factual awareness has already been explained.


What's your point?

Hello -V-

Aside from what you call 'factual' awareness, which can be linked to an awareness of instincts, the issue at hand deals with 'spiritual' awareness, meaning having the ability to distinguish between a lie and the truth which Adam and Eve lacked due to their ignorance of good and bad.

What is my point? The point is that Adam and Eve did not represent a likeness of God because they lacked spiritual awareness of good and bad. ("...here the man has become like one of us knowing good and bad." Genesis 3:22)

Tell me this, -V-: Do you think you will find happiness if given a chance to enter the Garden of Eden?
Hoping your confusion ends

 

[mmksparbud]

Hello -V-

Aside from what you call 'factual' awareness, which can be linked to an awareness of instincts, the issue at hand deals with 'spiritual' awareness, meaning having the ability to distinguish between a lie and the truth which Adam and Eve lacked due to their ignorance of good and bad.

What is my point? The point is that Adam and Eve did not represent a likeness of God because they lacked spiritual awareness of good and bad. ("...here the man has become like one of us knowing good and bad." Genesis 3:22)

Tell me this, -V-: Do you think you will find happiness if given a chance to enter the Garden of Eden?
Hoping your confusion ends

No--all they had to do was what God said---"No!" They knew what that meant. They did not have to know the consequences, or good and bad or anything else. They knew exactly what "No" meant and all they had to do was obey---period.

 

[-V-]

Hello -V-

Aside from what you call 'factual' awareness, which can be linked to an awareness of instincts, the issue at hand deals with 'spiritual' awareness, meaning having the ability to distinguish between a lie and the truth which Adam and Eve lacked due to their ignorance of good and bad.

Nothing but your speculative opinion there.

What is my point? The point is that Adam and Eve did not represent a likeness of God because they lacked spiritual awareness of good and bad.

More speculative opinion.

Tell me this, -V-: Do you think you will find happiness if given a chance to enter the Garden of Eden?

You'll have to explain the relevance there.

And you still haven't explained how there's any supposed contradiction yet.

 

[Kutte]

Nothing but your speculative opinion there.


More speculative opinion.


You'll have to explain the relevance there.

And you still haven't explained how there's any supposed contradiction yet.

Hi -V-,

To keep throwing remarks such as 'speculative opinion' around without explaining why, is
meaningless and shows a lack of understanding or unwillingness to respond.
My question "Do you think you will find happiness if given a chance to enter the Garden of Eden?"
is very relevant. It deals with the core issue of this discussion. Now, do you?
Truly yours

 

[-V-]

To keep throwing remarks such as 'speculative opinion' around without explaining why, is
meaningless and shows a lack of understanding or unwillingness to respond.

Without showing why?? You're making claims with no substantiation. How are your claims NOT speculative opinion?

My question "Do you think you will find happiness if given a chance to enter the Garden of Eden?"
is very relevant. It deals with the core issue of this discussion. Now, do you?
Truly yours

See, I said "EXPLAIN" how it's relevant, not simply claim it's relevant. Try again.

 

[Kutte]

Without showing why?? You're making claims with no substantiation. How are your claims NOT speculative opinion?


See, I said "EXPLAIN" how it's relevant, not simply claim it's relevant. Try again.

Hi -V-,

Since this talk relates to Adam and Eve and the Garden of Eden my question, "Do you think you will find happiness if given a chance to enter the Garden of Eden?' is very much relevant. I hope you can understand that and discontinue with strange excuses of not being relevant. So far you have eluded my simple question and I am tempted to conclude that you feel not comfortable with the idea of a life in the paradise garden called Eden.

Keep praying

 

[-V-]

Hi -V-,

Since this talk relates to Adam and Eve and the Garden of Eden my question, "Do you think you will find happiness if given a chance to enter the Garden of Eden?' is very much relevant. I hope you can understand that and discontinue with strange excuses of not being relevant. So far you have eluded my simple question and I am tempted to conclude that you feel not comfortable with the idea of a life in the paradise garden called Eden.

Keep praying

Why is it "strange" to not want to go down irrelevant rabbit holes? You're the one coming up with strange excuses. Once again, you just claim it's relevant with absolutely no explanation how. So far you have eluded my simple question and I am tempted to conclude that you feel not comfortable with the idea of relevance. It seems pretty clear that you can't address challenges to the questionable things you say and just look for any way to dodge such challenges. You still haven't answered what the actual "contradiction" was earlier, and now you refuse to answer in regards to relevance. Oh, yeah, *I'M* being the elusive one. Dry that one out and you can fertilize the lawn.

 

[Kutte]

Why is it "strange" to not want to go down irrelevant rabbit holes? You're the one coming up with strange excuses. Once again, you just claim it's relevant with absolutely no explanation how. So far you have eluded my simple question and I am tempted to conclude that you feel not comfortable with the idea of relevance. It seems pretty clear that you can't address challenges to the questionable things you say and just look for any way to dodge such challenges. You still haven't answered what the actual "contradiction" was earlier, and now you refuse to answer in regards to relevance. Oh, yeah, *I'M* being the elusive one. Dry that one out and you can fertilize the lawn.

Hi -V-
Why do I have the feeling that you are just playing games with dear old Kutte?
If I told you that snow is white you would answer, "You're making claims with no substantiation."

Now, how about my question, that IF you had a chance to enter paradise as it relates to the Garden of Eden would you want to enter and find true happiness? Simply answer with one word, 'yes' or 'no'.
God bless

 

[-V-]

Hi -V-
Why do I have the feeling that you are just playing games with dear old Kutte?

You're the one playing games.

You claim there's a contradiction. I ask HOW it's a contradiction, and several posts later you have YET to explain it. Dodge, dodge, dodge.

You ask a seemingly irrelevant question. I make a *SIMPLE* request that you explain its relevance, and three posts from you later, you have YET to do so. Dodge, dodge, dodge.

Every time you get challenged, you do anything to avoid justifying your claims. And here we are again - nothing from you explaining this supposed "contradiction", and nothing from you explaining the relevance of your entering paradise question.

Dodge, dodge, dodge... it's apparently the only thing you know how to do.

If I told you that snow is white you would answer, "You're making claims with no substantiation."

Nope, I don't object to a statement about snow being white. Thanks for asking.

Now, how about my question, that IF you had a chance to enter paradise as it relates to the Garden of Eden would you want to enter and find true happiness?

You'll have to explain the relevance.

 

[Kutte]

You're the one playing games.

You claim there's a contradiction. I ask HOW it's a contradiction, and several posts later you have YET to explain it. Dodge, dodge, dodge.

You ask a seemingly irrelevant question. I make a *SIMPLE* request that you explain its relevance, and three posts from you later, you have YET to do so. Dodge, dodge, dodge.

Every time you get challenged, you do anything to avoid justifying your claims. And here we are again - nothing from you explaining this supposed "contradiction", and nothing from you explaining the relevance of your entering paradise question.

Dodge, dodge, dodge... it's apparently the only thing you know how to do.


Nope, I don't object to a statement about snow being white. Thanks for asking.


You'll have to explain the relevance.

Hi -A-

I have explained contradictions but you decided to ignore them or you are unable or unwilling to recognize them.

Once again: Man was created as a likeness of God which includes the ability to differentiate between a lie and the truth which Adam and Eve were unable to do because they lacked knowledge of good and bad. A clear contradiction to the original intent to create man and maid as a likeness of God.

I also explained the relevance of my question to the topic at hand which you don't seem to recognize as well.
One more time: IF given a choice, would you want to enter the Garden of Eden as described in Genesis and live there forever? Yes or No?
Wishing you well

 

[-V-]

Hi -A-

I have explained contradictions but you decided to ignore them or you are unable or unwilling to recognize them.

Sure, you keep CLAIMING contradiction, but you haven't given any justification for your claim.

Once again: Man was created as a likeness of God which includes the ability to differentiate between a lie and the truth

"In God's image" doesn't mean "have every same quality that God has". You're just flat out guessing what they could or couldn't do.

which Adam and Eve were unable to do because they lacked knowledge of good and bad. A clear contradiction to the original intent to create man and maid as a likeness of God.

And once again (how many times does this need to be pointed out??) Your claim "lacked knowledge of good and bad" is false, as you completely change the meaning of "knowledge" in order to make it a contradiction.

I also explained the relevance of my question to the topic at hand which you don't seem to recognize as well.

Where? Where do you "explain" the relevance? All I see is you CLAIMING it's relevant with no actual explanation how.

One more time: IF given a choice, would you want to enter the Garden of Eden as described in Genesis and live there forever? Yes or No?

You'll have to explain the relevance first.

 

[Kutte]

Sure, you keep CLAIMING contradiction, but you haven't given any justification for your claim.


"In God's image" doesn't mean "have every same quality that God has". You're just flat out guessing what they could or couldn't do.


And once again (how many times does this need to be pointed out??) Your claim "lacked knowledge of good and bad" is false, as you completely change the meaning of "knowledge" in order to make it a contradiction.


Where? Where do you "explain" the relevance? All I see is you CLAIMING it's relevant with no actual explanation how.


You'll have to explain the relevance first.

Dear -V-,

I am in the process of moving to a new location which includes disconnecting all my electronic devices including internet connection for a while. So, until dear old Kutte pops up again in the Christian Forum I am asking for your patients. I know you will miss me.

Because I am a compassionate spiritual being I like to present to you a special gift dealing with a true path to happiness. No, it is not paradise or some foggy image of the Hereafter in heaven. Here it is:

Face a challenge. Climb a mountain. Experience sweat, troubles and pain on your way up to the top. Once you reach the summit you will experience true happiness. Trust me