How come?

[Nadiine]

And finally it is still totally inadequate to explain hell as what the bible says about it WHEN U ALL DISAGREE WITH EACH OTHER...!! if you all have the TRUTH about it then you should all agree with each other on exactly right down to the last detail on what it is!
I cant help noticing that noone really wants to answer this, if my belief is incorrect at least it doesnt contradict itself!!

This is a typical false expectation placed on Christians; that they MUST "all agree with one another on all doctrine".
I mentioned this in another recent post - why 'Christians' leave God -
they [wrongly] expect God's People to become sinless, perfect & instantly become complete in the full knowledge of God (know it all).

There are MANY valid reasons for Christian's lack of agreement on side issues in doctrine - too many to list here (1 Cor.13:12).

If all Christians have to agree with one another (as you state) "it is still totally inadequate to explain hell as what the bible says about it WHEN U ALL DISAGREE WITH EACH OTHER...!!"
then NO ONE can witness ANY doctrine from the bible.
Plus, you've just discluded yourself because there will always be somebody somewhere who disagrees w/ your belief.
Disagreement NEVER REMOVES TRUTH. The majority of a population who eons ago claimed the earth was Flat, didn't in fact make the earth flat.

You (a Universalist) divert from the majority of orthodox, traditionally held church beliefs in certain portions doctrine.
It would seem to me that it gives you even less ability (according to your own statement) to speak on doctrinal teachings.
Further, even the majority of Atheists & Agnostics agree the Bible teaches condemnation of the souls in eternal hell... this isn't just pulled out of hat by some fantatical Christians who have a perverted penchant for sadism.

One last point on this issue, just because people disagree on points or DETAILS of doctrine, doesn't wipe out the principle of the doctrine as true!
We may disagree on 'the gift of tongues' being necessary for salvation, but WE FIND COMMON GROUND IN AGREEMENT THAT THOSE GIFTS EXISTED, & GOD GAVE THOSE GIFTS WHICH WERE USED in the early churches.

It doesn't render the [principle of the] doctrine false.​

Your statement ignores the common ground WE DO ALL SHARE by enforcing uniform agreement. There IS and can be unity in diversity!

Also, Mark, Paul & Barnabus in Acts had a contention over ministry and split from each other (Acts 15:39). Peter disagreed with Paul on dietary laws & Gentile conversion (until God sent Peter 3 repetitious dreams)...

As far as judging salvation --
Since the Bible is the authority on defining what a true believer is, that is what I go by as the standard for Christianity.
While I do not judge PEOPLE, I DO judge their proclaimed beliefs on scripture. It is what it is - and Paul and John had NO problem exposing some (even by name) as apostates and/or false teachers & wolves openly.

Jesus said "you will know them (false or true) by their Fruit". Mt 6:15. Otherwise, we can't even judge what false teaching is; rendering us helpless to decide God's truth.
& that's as far as I'll go on judging others salvation here.
Mat. 7:21-23

I'm a universalist...i dont like tags but thats the one that i guess i fit under, its a belief that all will in the fullness of time be reconciled with God, it says plenty of times in the Bible that God will restore everything back to himself and I believe that, it doesnt mean that we dont pay consequences for our actions at all, it just doesnt mean that people are tormented or tortured for aeon after aeon.....!

All I'll say to this is: the blanket term "reconciling all to God" isn't something we can "surmise & speculate" its meaning to be when SCRIPTURE DIRECTLY REFUTES OUR THEORY ELSEWHERE.

We use ALL of the bible to assess truth of God; we cannot 'lift out' one verse on reconciliation as it's own statement (& outside its surrounding context), to include things that are specifically refuted elsewhere.

Again, all that does is cause the Bible to contradict itself & become useless for teaching any truth.
You went as far as saying 'if all Christians don't agree on all doctrine that we are inadequate to talk about what the bible says on it'... I ask, what's worse? THE BIBLE itself becoming self refuting; now nobody has any means of establishing any uniform truth of God - by God.

But specifically, Satan, the false prophet & antichrist are detailed to be cast into the lake of fire forever-
Rev. 20:10 "The devil, who decieved them, was cast into the Lake of fire & brimstone where the beast and the false prophet are. And they will be tormented day & night forever and ever."
These 3 are PART of God's creation - God made them all. These 3 specifically aren't going to be "reconciled" to God or reside WITH Him.
---
A separate point, not all things are going to be restored in the new heaven/earth... God removes marriage covenant (Mt. 22:30), and God doesn't reestablish the seas (Rev 21:1).
God "reconciles them" by Removing them!

This easily gives way to making eternal condemnation a possibility - God's reconciliation can just as well be to REMOVE unrepentant, rebellious souls from His presence in the new heaven/earth.

(not to mention, even human reason doesn't mesh with this theory becuz if ALL become saved & reside with God eternally, there's no reason TO be saved on earth now! NONE!
Why bother witnessing when all end up in the same blissfull place anyways?
What a waste of our precious, limited time!!

It gives me no incentive to love or obey God here or "put my flesh to death" & suffer when I'm going to get there & be happy anyway.

(namely when i have to use faith that heaven even exists! I at least know this life as fact here & now)
There's absolutely no point to follow God here while being persecuted, going without & suffering when we ALL get there anyway - in fact, it's downright UNJUST to allow people who lived in willful sin or debauchery to get into the same place where the others suffered and went without to get there!!).

You may see a hell of physical and pyschological pain as just and fair, but lets face it, you're not the one who's going to suffer and be screaming in agony for eternity either.......by the way how can it be physical ad psychological.............if you're being roasted with flames then you're not really going to be thinking about much really

Statements like this are human reason, rationale and personal preference which LIMIT GOD. Is it impossible for God to do?
What of those who reason that it's NOT cruel or unfair that God cast souls into the Lake of Fire who shunned & spit in His face in this life?
I know many who feel that way. The issue is, WHAT THE BIBLE SAYS, not how we feel.

Besides SOULS are not tangible/material - they are spirit/invisible/intangible.
& how do you know how an intangible soul would hold up to literal or supernaturally created fire (of another kind)??? You don't - but the Bible says it exists.
Am I to believe you or my Bible?

I just know the bible teaches of "fire" and "brimstone" and "smoke" rising from their torments... (Luke 16:19)
Literal or not, IT ISN'T PLEASANT.

I have given a plausible possibility before, The Burning Bush.
The Fire God used on the burning bush didn't consume a MATERIAL OBJECT known to burn & be consumed; unlike that used on Sodom & Gomorrah - so why do you reject the possibility that an omnipotent God can create a type of fire that wouldn't consume the immatierial/INVISIBLE SOUL ?

Again, personal dislike & personal preferences within limited human reasoning put God in a box.
God's word says what it does - it's then OUR DUTY to submit to that; not make the Bible submit to our limited understanding or preferences.
To do so means-- MAN CREATES -AND DECIDES- TRUTH. THE BIBLE IS RENDERED INCAPABLE OF TEACHING US TRUTH AT THAT POINT and we have then become its teacher.

 

[Momma2H]

Yes, you can be a universalist and a Christian at the same time, a Universalist is a Christian.......there's some misconceptions about universalist unitarians but its not te same thing as I had to point out in another thread on this site, Universalism still has the bible at its core......

I couldn't disagree more.

I'm well aware that the bible mentions hell, it also says that hell is thrown into the lake of fire in revelation along with death, any explanations anyone? How can u 'throw' death into something.......its not a physical object u can pick up......yet hell is always regarded as a literal place..........so how can it be eternal if its destroyed in the lake of fire....?! How does the bible say that hell is eternal, its funny but i dont recall reading anywhere in the bible that 'hell' is eternal.......where exactly does it say that...? Again, more inconsistency.........plenty people here believe in a literal lake of fire where hell is only a stop gap until ending up in that place.......!

I know more Christians that do believe in hell than don't. As a matter of fact, I didn't know any Christian who didn't believe in hell, until I came on here. Even a lot of unsaved people believe in hell. I see it in the movies all the time where an antagonist says "See you all in hell", or something to that effect. Some people even say they don't care if they go to hell, which is so sad, but even they acknowledge that it does exist. I think yet again, you picked out one passage in the Bible and based your beliefs on that one verse without reading the whole passage in context. And what is "that" place that so many people on here believe hell is a waiting room for? I've yet to see that one.

 

[red77]

This is a typical false expectation placed on Christians; that they MUST "all agree with one another on all doctrine".
I mentioned this in another recent post - why 'Christians' leave God -
they [wrongly] expect God's People to become sinless, perfect & instantly become complete in the full knowledge of God (know it all).

There are MANY valid reasons for Christian's lack of agreement on side issues in doctrine - too many to list here (1 Cor.13:12).

If all Christians have to agree with one another (as you state) "it is still totally inadequate to explain hell as what the bible says about it WHEN U ALL DISAGREE WITH EACH OTHER...!!"
then NO ONE can witness ANY doctrine from the bible.
Plus, you've just discluded yourself because there will always be somebody somewhere who disagrees w/ your belief.
Disagreement NEVER REMOVES TRUTH. The majority of a population who eons ago claimed the earth was Flat, didn't in fact make the earth flat.

You (a Universalist) divert from the majority of orthodox, traditionally held church beliefs in certain portions doctrine.
It would seem to me that it gives you even less ability (according to your own statement) to speak on doctrinal teachings.
Further, even the majority of Atheists & Agnostics agree the Bible teaches condemnation of the souls in eternal hell... this isn't just pulled out of hat by some fantatical Christians who have a perverted penchant for sadism.



As far as judging salvation --
Since the Bible is the authority on defining what a true believer is, that is what I go by as the standard for Christianity.
While I do not judge PEOPLE, I DO judge their proclaimed beliefs on scripture. It is what it is - and Paul and John had NO problem exposing some (even by name) as apostates and/or false teachers & wolves openly.

Jesus said "you will know them (false or true) by their Fruit". Mt 6:15. Otherwise, we can't even judge what false teaching is; rendering us helpless to decide God's truth.
& that's as far as I'll go on judging others salvation here.
Mat. 7:21-23



All I'll say to this is: the blanket term "reconciling all to God" isn't something we can "surmise & speculate" its meaning to be when SCRIPTURE DIRECTLY REFUTES OUR THEORY ELSEWHERE.

We use ALL of the bible to assess truth of God; we cannot 'lift out' one verse on reconciliation as it's own statement (& outside its surrounding context), to include things that are specifically refuted elsewhere.



But specifically, Satan, the false prophet & antichrist are detailed to be cast into the lake of fire forever-
Rev. 20:10 "The devil, who decieved them, was cast into the Lake of fire & brimstone where the beast and the false prophet are. And they will be tormented day & night forever and ever."
These 3 are PART of God's creation - God made them all. These 3 specifically aren't going to be "reconciled" to God or reside WITH Him.
---
A separate point, not all things are going to be restored in the new heaven/earth... God removes marriage covenant (Mt. 22:30), and God doesn't reestablish the seas (Rev 21:1).
God "reconciles them" by Removing them!

This easily gives way to making eternal condemnation a possibility - God's reconciliation can just as well be to REMOVE unrepentant, rebellious souls from His presence in the new heaven/earth.

(not to mention, even human reason doesn't mesh with this theory becuz if ALL become saved & reside with God eternally, there's no reason TO be saved on earth now! NONE!
Why bother witnessing when all end up in the same blissfull place anyways?
What a waste of our precious, limited time!!

It gives me no incentive to love or obey God here or "put my flesh to death" & suffer when I'm going to get there & be happy anyway.

(namely when i have to use faith that heaven even exists! I at least know this life as fact here & now)
There's absolutely no point to follow God here while being persecuted, going without & suffering when we ALL get there anyway - in fact, it's downright UNJUST to allow people who lived in willful sin or debauchery to get into the same place where the others suffered and went without to get there!!).


Statements like this are human reason, rationale and personal preference which LIMIT GOD. Is it impossible for God to do?
What of those who reason that it's NOT cruel or unfair that God cast souls into the Lake of Fire who shunned & spit in His face in this life?
I know many who feel that way. The issue is, WHAT THE BIBLE SAYS, not how we feel.

Besides SOULS are not tangible/material - they are spirit/invisible/intangible.
& how do you know how an intangible soul would hold up to literal or supernaturally created fire (of another kind)??? You don't - but the Bible says it exists.
Am I to believe you or my Bible?

I just know the bible teaches of "fire" and "brimstone" and "smoke" rising from their torments... (Luke 16:19)
Literal or not, IT ISN'T PLEASANT.

I have given a plausible possibility before, The Burning Bush.
The Fire God used on the burning bush didn't consume a MATERIAL OBJECT known to burn & be consumed; unlike that used on Sodom & Gomorrah - so why do you reject the possibility that an omnipotent God can create a type of fire that wouldn't consume the immatierial/INVISIBLE SOUL ?

Again, personal dislike & personal preferences within limited human reasoning put God in a box.
God's word says what it does - it's then OUR DUTY to submit to that; not make the Bible submit to our limited understanding or preferences.
To do so means-- MAN CREATES -AND DECIDES- TRUTH. THE BIBLE IS RENDERED INCAPABLE OF TEACHING US TRUTH AT THAT POINT and we have then become its teacher.

Firstly..............I do not expect Christians to agree with each other on all aspects of doctrine, but it is not a false expectation to expect consistency on the crucial doctrine of eternal torment.......this is hardly a 'side issue'.........it has nothing to do with expecting Christians to live perfect, sinless lives either........its about finding out who, if anyone, has the truth on this.....it is a major part of your doctrine, for all those who ascribe to this there should be clarity and consistency and no subjecture on the issue at all, if the bible eaches hell to be eternal and it says what it is so clearly for you all to ascribe to it then you should ALL be backing each other up and not contradicting each other in the sightest.......its not like we're discussing whether its ok to wear bangles on a sunday morning or something, we're talking about a doctrine that bases a doctrine of eternal suffering/torment/torture of human beings for eternity supposedly directly from the bible........therefore it should be crystal clear what that teaching is, where it is in the bible, what the suffering involves etc etc, if there's room for differences of opinion among u regarding this issue then you can hardly be surprised (given the horrific nature of this subject) that you are called into question about it........you hold truth in high regard, thats fair enough, so do I, and the truth I'm finding here is noone seems to actually know what hell is for certain...........and quite honestly you all should if its so clear in what the bible teaches.......!

Being in a minority doesnt phase me at all, I dont follow a crowd and just because there's church's that stick to a traditional dogma doesnt mean they have the truth......a majority view sure isnt always the right one.....I have just as much room to talk about christianity as well as anybody else, sure people will disagree with some aspects of scripture among any belief including my own, but the core of universalism is shared by all that ascribe, at least in my experience......there's certainly no discrepancies regarding something like ET for a start....!

If you know that the majority of atheists/agnostics believe the bible teaches an eternal hell then u have the advantage on me there...........thats not the case in my experience at all.....i should imagine that many who do think that the bible teaches it have heard it from the church in their lives.........

Scipture directly refutes God drawing reconciling everyone back to himself.........? It says God wills that all men be safe and come to a knowledge of the truth........Does it not also say that God is the saviour of all men, especially of those that believe....? So what are we supposed to make of that......? Or are these scriptures that refute eternal hell ....? I'm yet to see where hell is actually described as being 'eternal' in the bible anyway...........

You say there's no reason on earth to be saved now....none........what about having life to its fullest? having the knowledge of being loved and being able to share that love with others! Sharing the good news so that those who are suffering either physically or mentally with loss could be given hope that their life had meaning........Are they not rason enough.......? It bemuses me completely where u stand on this........as a christian i want to have hope for all my fellow man, those who I know and love and those billions that i dont as well.......how much love would i have within me if i started to feel unhappy that everyone would get to be with God....? Should I feel aggrieved? No chance!! Good grief if i started thinking that I needed people who didnt believe to be tormented for an eternity for my belief to stand up there wouldnt be much love within me as a person........
For those who feel it would be somehow unjust and unfair of God not to torment his beings for eternity they show no love for their fellow man IMO........'love thy neighbour as thyself'.......whether they be christian or otherwise.........if anyone was annoyed that God would actually forgive his beings who weren't born again but fry them for ever then the warmth and compassion that should be an integral part of the faith is lacking..........Its not like I'm saying there wouldnt be any justice for people here either.....but when i hear arguments about 'whats the point of suffering, being persecued if everyone gets there anyway' it just leaves me cold..........other people who are without faith suffer horrendously in this life just as much as Christians.....and they dont have the faith to fall back on........if u had no incentive to love and obey God because you thought it was unjust for him to forgive everyone then what does that say about your own rationale........? Would you need people to suffer for an eternity for your belief to hold......?!

As for your comments about the material/tangible, well i happen to think that the fire described in revelation is metaphorical as with most of the chapter.......Obviously God could do whatever he wishes but with the reasoning mind i was gifted with I dont believe he created a place to torment and burn either intangibly or otherwise helpless beings.....it also seems as though you speculate yourself on the nature of this fire although for it to fit in with your doctrine it obviusly has to be horrible and painful....................but there's no tangible truth in any of your comments.....just speculation........
Either way the truth seems to be out on this........until you can ALL agree on this subject then None of you can really claim to know or have the truth, Jim47 thinks hell is a lake of fire.........what possible sense does that make.....? its thrown into another one.......! And he thinks hell is eternal...... how can it be.....! But he claims he knows the truth........Momma2H thinks its somehow physical and psychological at the same time, being 'roasted' still leaves ability for thought.... She claims she knows the truth thats been taught........
You speculated on it being an absence from God and all things good........yet going by this post U now think it could be a fire that torments without consuming........ ..........Opinion doesnt change the truth.....? What exactly is the truth....???!!

 

[red77]

I couldn't disagree more.



I know more Christians that do believe in hell than don't. As a matter of fact, I didn't know any Christian who didn't believe in hell, until I came on here. Even a lot of unsaved people believe in hell. I see it in the movies all the time where an antagonist says "See you all in hell", or something to that effect. Some people even say they don't care if they go to hell, which is so sad, but even they acknowledge that it does exist. I think yet again, you picked out one passage in the Bible and based your beliefs on that one verse without reading the whole passage in context. And what is "that" place that so many people on here believe hell is a waiting room for? I've yet to see that one.

Well, no offence but its pretty irrelevant whether you disagree about universalism, it does use the bible at its core whether you agree or not......check out what it is if u dont take my word for it

I'm not surprised u havent met christians who dont believe in eternal hell until coming here, I dont suppose the church or churches and people u mix claim anything different than you, it's acore message of evangelicism so hell is rife....using 'hell' as in the movies as evidence to support that people believe in it literally doesnt hold much water to be honest.........
please show me how these passages can be taken out of context......they seem abundantly clear to me......there's others too but i havent the time to paste them in this reply........
But please explain what Jesus was talking about when asked by his disciples 'who then can be saved' and he answered 'with man this is impossible, but with God all things are possible'........what am i taking out of context.........?
Those who think that Hell is a stop gap are referring to the lake of fire..........dont worry, they still believe in eternal torment but their 'truth' of it denies hell as being eternal.......and they're just as convinced they're right as u, jim47 and Naadine.........go figure..........

 

[Momma2H]

Well, no offence but its pretty irrelevant whether you disagree about universalism, it does use the bible at its core whether you agree or not......check out what it is if u dont take my word for it

I'm not surprised u havent met christians who dont believe in eternal hell until coming here, I dont suppose the church or churches and people u mix claim anything different than you, it's acore message of evangelicism so hell is rife....using 'hell' as in the movies as evidence to support that people believe in it literally doesnt hold much water to be honest.........

First, I was disagreeing to your statement that you can be both a universalist and a Christian. These denominations have contradicting beliefs.

Secondly, I don't "mix" with a lot of the people at my church, (for it is a very big church) and I'm sure somewhere along the lines, we may have some disagreements on certain topics, such a discipline of children and things of that nature, but I'm very sure the majority does believe in hell. All of the preachers I've seen on tv, from local churches around my city, all preach of hell and it's reality. Are they lying, when they've gone through years of training and studying to become preachers in the first place? Are most of the Christians in my city wrong (which is a big city, btw), just because you don't want to accept the truth?

No human can ever understand God and His reasoning. We just aren't capable of it. If He says hell exists, then it does and there's nothing we can do about it, but trust in Him as our Lord and Savior, so that we won't end up there and share the good news that Jesus made a way for us not to have to go there.

 

[IWantToBelieve]

At the end of the day this guy should be given understanding and empathy, he's seeking answers and doesnt need his heart being called into question at all, nor any sort of judgement on his character......
Christianity is about sharing a message of love and hope, that is what the focus should be on.........

Red, I like your attitude. You seem like the kind of guy I was looking forward to for a while now. It's good knowing that there's a guy like you who doesnt rely on ol' fire and brimstone to threaten me into christ. In fact, reading your posts make my day a little brighter.

Satan has been working on all of our hearts, not just you

The difference being that satan is not in MY heart. I dont love satan. He is not in my heart. You ought to be more careful with your wording if you dont mean what you say.

What is love without the truth? God's Word is truth. Is it better to show what some call love and only decieve them into believing that God will save them even though they fail to repent of their unbelief? No, not all.

I hate when people fail to read my threads and reply without thinking rationally. I dont listen to fire and brimstone, I ignore and scorn it. I refuse to succumb to violence to backup my viewpoint, and I will refuse to listen the other way. I am one man who will not be threatened into christ. It's simply not going to happen.

Nadiine, Momma, Jim, there's no reason to keep posting if you're going to continue the above, so please dont bring that into my searching for faith thread. I really just dont benefit from fire and brimstone posts.

Have you ever sat there and pondered about that missing element in your life? Like you have everything you need or want but yet....you feel as if something is missing in your life and you just don't know what it is?

Nope. Well, I take that back. I wonder why I wasted my time with a religion that couldnt be proven without professionals. Even then it's still not very reliable.

The point is, it's a place of eternal suffering for those who have rejected Jesus.

And we all agree that hell exists and that if you're not saved, then you will go there.

There's no need for discussion of hell in my thread. Different denominations of christianity will deny whether or not people who reject god will go to hell or not, because some believe they do and some believe that everyone goes to heaven because they get forgiven by god. If yall wanna talk about that, do it in a different thread, because I really dont even believe in hell at this point so why should we even be talking about who goes there? Yall will only be debating about the three options (the third option is if there actually is a hell, which is my option) back and forth.

I have been "saved" if that's what you want to call it. That was way back when. So if you believe in once saved, always saved, then I guess I've got nothing to fear, even tho I'm not a christian ATM.

 

[a1000smiles]

Top Ten Reasons For Not Being a Christian
(I found this and I would like to share it with you all...=D)


Over the course of my ministry, I've pretty much heard all the objections to Christianity the world has to offer. Here are what I would consider the "Top 10 Objections" to becoming a Christian.


1. "Seeing is believing. I've never seen God, so how do I know He exists?"
Nobody has ever seen the wind, but there is no doubt of its power. Nobody has seen history, but there is no doubt of its legacy. Nobody has seen a person's mind, but that doesn't make us mindless. TV and radio waves are invisible, but with the proper receiver, we can see their results.
Having never seen God is not much of a reason for rejecting Him, if you get right down to it. Let's see if we can do better.
2. "I may have broken the Ten Commandments, but I do good things for people. If God is fair, the scales will balance."
One look at "Hollywood morality" should dispel this one. They commit adultery in their youth, and then become involved in giving to AIDS research, etc., as they grow older. In their minds, they think that they are balancing the scales. They have done bad, and now they are doing good.
It doesn't work that way, even before an imperfect judge in a secular courtroom – if the judge is honest. An effort to bribe the judge with good works is still a bribe.
If you compare yourself with other human beings, you might be better than some, but worse than others.
But God has to judge us on the basis of His righteous character, which we have violated. This is why He gave us the "Big Ten." They show us how good we would have to be to earn God's acceptance by our own good deeds. This is why God cannot judge on the "curve." God says, "Whoever keeps the whole law, yet offends in one point is guilty of all of it." (James 2:10)
Since none of us could ever be good enough to measure up to His perfect character, God elected to come to Earth in the person of Jesus Christ and die in our place under His offended righteous character. In so doing, God purchased a pardon for every person. We only have to admit we have broken His laws, turn to God and accept His free pardon.
3. "Christianity is oppressive to women."
This objection comes up in confusing the context of the Christian model for marriage. Ephesians 5:22 says, "Wives, submit yourselves to your own husbands, as unto the Lord." But the skeptic's objection collapses when the passage is taken in its full context.
Ephesians 5:25 commands husbands, "Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the Church, and gave Himself for it."
It is hardly "oppression" to submit to someone who loves you with a sacrificial love. Instead, it is a textbook definition of love – a key ingredient to a successful marriage.
4. "The Bible was written by men."
As an objection, this is by far the silliest. When you write a letter, are you writing it, or is the pen? As I type this column, am I writing it, or is my computer? Clearly, the pen, or the computer, is the instrument, not the writer. The same principle applies to the writers of Scripture. They were instruments, but God's Spirit is the author.
The Bible declares of itself that "all Scripture is given by inspiration of God." (2 Timothy 3:16) and the proof is in the pudding. The writers of Scripture ranged from shepherds to kings to fishermen, but the 66 books that make up the Bible read as a single, harmonious narrative emanating from a Single Author.
God threw down the gauntlet concerning how to know whether His Word is true or not. God said to Moses, "You may say to yourselves, 'How can we know when a message has not been spoken by the LORD?' If what a prophet proclaims in the name of the LORD does not take place or come true, that is a message the LORD has not spoken." (Deut. 18:21-22 NIV)
Every prophecy made in the Bible about specific events, places and times have come true to the letter. Some are not yet fulfilled because it is not yet the time. But the record in history is 100 percent accuracy. This is why we have only the books in the Bible that have been authenticated by fulfilled prophecy. More than 300 prophecies were fulfilled in the birth, life, death and resurrection of Jesus the Messiah.
5. "Churches are full of hypocrites."
The word "hypocrite" comes from the Greek word for "actor" or "pretender." Hypocrisy is "the practice of professing beliefs, feelings, or virtues that one does not hold."
The Body of Christ consists of true believers – "churches" are buildings where people congregate. Sitting in a church no more makes one a Christian than sitting in a garage makes one a car.
Jesus will sort out the true believers from the pretenders in His time. The question is not what church you go to, but rather, whom do you trust for your salvation? A church? Or Jesus Christ?
6. "Christians think they are better than non-Christians."
This is another objection borne out of ignorance of both the teaching of Scripture and the nature of salvation. Nowhere do the Scriptures say that a Christian is a better person than a non-Christian. A believer in Jesus is a forgiven sinner. The unbeliever is not forgiven. But a true Christian knows that he is forgiven by the unmerited grace of God.
Peter betrayed Jesus by denying Him three times. Judas betrayed Him only once. But Peter is infinitely better off. Peter believed and was forgiven. Judas did not.
Two murderers were crucified alongside Jesus. One repented and expressed his faith by saying, "Lord, remember me when you come into your kingdom." Jesus immediately replied, "Truly I say to you, Today you will be with me in Paradise."
By way of analogy, consider two skydivers. One has a working parachute; the other does not. That doesn't make the skydiver with a working parachute a better skydiver. But he is certainly wiser than the other guy.
7. "There is too much suffering in the world for there to be a loving God."
The Bible tells us that God cursed the Earth because of Adam's transgression. Weeds are a curse. So is disease. Sin and suffering cannot be separated. The Scriptures inform us that we live in a fallen creation. Those who understand the message of Holy Scripture eagerly await a new Heaven and a new Earth "wherein dwells righteousness."
In that coming Kingdom there will be no more pain, suffering, disease or death. If it didn't exist here, then its abolition then would be meaningless. The sacrifice of Christ would be unnecessary.
A loving God? John 15:13 says, "Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends."
8. "Christianity isn't fair. What about all those people who have never heard the Gospel? Will they all go to Hell because they haven't heard about Jesus Christ?"
No one will be lost because he hasn't heard of Jesus. God says, "The wrath of God is being revealed from Heaven against all the godlessness and wickedness of men who suppress the truth by their wickedness, since what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them. For since the creation of the world God's invisible qualities – his eternal power and divine nature – have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that men are without excuse." (Romans 1:18-20) He also promises, "You will seek Me and find me when you search for Me with all your heart." (Jeremiah 29:13)
You see, God brings everyone to "God-consciousness" through the witness of creation. When a person anywhere, in any culture comes to God-consciousness – and then desires to know this God, He will move Heaven and Earth to get the true message to him. If he dies without hearing about Jesus Christ, it's because he did not want to know the true God.
9. I've tried to read the Bible. I can't understand it.
The Scriptures tells us that the "natural man" cannot understand the things of the Spirit of God. Most Americans would find it difficult to understand the Chinese language. However, a child who is born into a Chinese family can understand every word.
Every person is born physically alive, but spiritually dead. God is a "Spirit" and we must have the same kind of life to perceive Him. This is why Jesus said to a very religious man, "Unless a man is born from above, he cannot perceive the things of God."
When even an uneducated person believes in Jesus and is born spiritually, he can immediately begin to understand the Bible.
10. Christians are sinners, according to their own teaching. So what is the difference between a Christian who sins and a non-believer?
This objection misses the point. A Christian receives a new nature and the Spirit of God comes to dwell in him it at the point of the "new spiritual birth." He still has an old nature that wants to sin. When the Christian fails to say no to temptation and depend upon God's Spirit, he sins.
The difference, however, is that a Christian cannot be happy anymore living in sin. He becomes miserable and wants to return to fellowship with God. As soon as he confesses his sin to God, he is forgiven and brought back into fellowship. But though the Christian can get out of fellowship, he cannot lose his relationship with God. That has been secured forever by the death of Jesus Christ in his place. God will not disown a child that He purchased with His own blood.
The 10 reasons for not being a Christian, therefore, are really 10 reasons why, if you haven't already, you should be on your knees – right now – receive the gift of pardon that Jesus purchased by dying in your place.
You won't become perfect in this life, but you will have new desires and power that will make you progressively better. And at the end, you will go to be with God forever.

 

[Nadiine]

Red, I like your attitude. You seem like the kind of guy I was looking forward to for a while now. It's good knowing that there's a guy like you who doesnt rely on ol' fire and brimstone to threaten me into christ. In fact, reading your posts make my day a little brighter.

People don't threaten with hell, it's God's system so that [unforgiven/active] SIN doesn't permeate and continue to curse & work against the living after God restores everything after judgment.

I'd choose the TRUE doctrine over embracing what sounds nice to me - sure, I'd LOVE the easy way out - but the 'easy' way leads to destruction.
Proverbs 14:12 "There is a way that SEEMS right to a man, but its end is the way of death."
No thanx.

In the End it's only TRUTH that matters. If he's wrong (which the Bible clearly relays- Rev. 20:7-14, - -and even the majority of atheists & agnostics accept the bible teaches there is a Hell), his witness won't help anyone.

Doctor's often have to give bad news... should we just ignore them or hunt down other Dr's. who'll give us a better diagnosis?
And what good is telling you something false so you can't make an informed decision for your health based on FACT?

Embracing what sounds nice if it's not the truth, isn't HELP.

2 Tim 4:3 "For the time will come when they will not endure (put up with) sound doctrine, but according to their own desires, because they have itching ears, they will heap up for themselves teachers; and they will turn their ears away from the truth and be turned aside to fables."

 

[Momma2H]

People don't threaten with hell, it's God's system so that [unforgiven/active] SIN doesn't permeate and continue to curse & work against the living after God restores everything after judgment.

I'd choose the TRUE doctrine over embracing what sounds nice to me - sure, I'd LOVE the easy way out - but the 'easy' way leads to destruction.
Proverbs 14:12 "There is a way that SEEMS right to a man, but its end is the way of death."
No thanx.

In the End it's only TRUTH that matters. If he's wrong (which the Bible clearly relays- Rev. 20:7-14, - -and even the majority of atheists & agnostics accept the bible teaches there is a Hell), his witness won't help anyone.

Doctor's often have to give bad news... should we just ignore them or hunt down other Dr's. who'll give us a better diagnosis?
And what good is telling you something false so you can't make an informed decision for your health based on FACT?

Embracing what sounds nice if it's not the truth, isn't HELP.

2 Tim 4:3 "For the time will come when they will not endure (put up with) sound doctrine, but according to their own desires, because they have itching ears, they will heap up for themselves teachers; and they will turn their ears away from the truth and be turned aside to fables."

Awesome!!

I'm not even going to reply to IWantToBelieve's statement about me only talking of "brimstone and fire", because if that's all he got out of what all I posted, then he's blinded by the views of the world. I wouldn't be excited to have found a friend who also thinks there's a way around the truth, just because he doesn't like the facts. But, that's just me.

 

[IWantToBelieve]

I'm going to quote the ones that apply to me.

1. "Seeing is believing. I've never seen God, so how do I know He exists?"
Nobody has ever seen the wind, but there is no doubt of its power. Nobody has seen history, but there is no doubt of its legacy. Nobody has seen a person's mind, but that doesn't make us mindless. TV and radio waves are invisible, but with the proper receiver, we can see their results.
Having never seen God is not much of a reason for rejecting Him, if you get right down to it. Let's see if we can do better.

I'll agree with you on the history part, but as far as the wind goes: I can feel it. Person's mind: I have one. TV and radio waves: we see the results through trial and error, so we know it works. Let's see if we can do better.
.

4. "The Bible was written by men."

As an objection, this is by far the silliest. When you write a letter, are you writing it, or is the pen? As I type this column, am I writing it, or is my computer? Clearly, the pen, or the computer, is the instrument, not the writer. The same principle applies to the writers of Scripture. They were instruments, but God's Spirit is the author.
The Bible declares of itself that "all Scripture is given by inspiration of God." (2 Timothy 3:16) and the proof is in the pudding. The writers of Scripture ranged from shepherds to kings to fishermen, but the 66 books that make up the Bible read as a single, harmonious narrative emanating from a Single Author.
God threw down the gauntlet concerning how to know whether His Word is true or not. God said to Moses, "You may say to yourselves, 'How can we know when a message has not been spoken by the LORD?' If what a prophet proclaims in the name of the LORD does not take place or come true, that is a message the LORD has not spoken." (Deut. 18:21-22 NIV)
Every prophecy made in the Bible about specific events, places and times have come true to the letter. Some are not yet fulfilled because it is not yet the time. But the record in history is 100 percent accuracy. This is why we have only the books in the Bible that have been authenticated by fulfilled prophecy. More than 300 prophecies were fulfilled in the birth, life, death and resurrection of Jesus the Messiah.

The bible was still written by man. Same thing with the george washington theory, does anyone have proof that this stuff actually happened? Has anyone talked to someone who wrote for the bible? How do we know it's more than one person? We arent 100% sure that god gave his scriptures to X number of people to write down Y's scriptures. So we're back to square 1, bible was physically written by humans.

5. "Churches are full of hypocrites."

The word "hypocrite" comes from the Greek word for "actor" or "pretender." Hypocrisy is "the practice of professing beliefs, feelings, or virtues that one does not hold."
The Body of Christ consists of true believers – "churches" are buildings where people congregate. Sitting in a church no more makes one a Christian than sitting in a garage makes one a car.
Jesus will sort out the true believers from the pretenders in His time. The question is not what church you go to, but rather, whom do you trust for your salvation? A church? Or Jesus Christ?

I wouldnt say that churches are full of hypocrites, I would say that there are many christians who are hypocrites.

6. "Christians think they are better than non-Christians."

This is another objection borne out of ignorance of both the teaching of Scripture and the nature of salvation. Nowhere do the Scriptures say that a Christian is a better person than a non-Christian. A believer in Jesus is a forgiven sinner. The unbeliever is not forgiven. But a true Christian knows that he is forgiven by the unmerited grace of God.
Peter betrayed Jesus by denying Him three times. Judas betrayed Him only once. But Peter is infinitely better off. Peter believed and was forgiven. Judas did not.
Two murderers were crucified alongside Jesus. One repented and expressed his faith by saying, "Lord, remember me when you come into your kingdom." Jesus immediately replied, "Truly I say to you, Today you will be with me in Paradise."
By way of analogy, consider two skydivers. One has a working parachute; the other does not. That doesn't make the skydiver with a working parachute a better skydiver. But he is certainly wiser than the other guy.

Fact: there are christians who think that they are better than nonchristians, and vice versa.

8. "Christianity isn't fair. What about all those people who have never heard the Gospel? Will they all go to Hell because they haven't heard about Jesus Christ?"

No one will be lost because he hasn't heard of Jesus. God says, "The wrath of God is being revealed from Heaven against all the godlessness and wickedness of men who suppress the truth by their wickedness, since what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them. For since the creation of the world God's invisible qualities – his eternal power and divine nature – have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that men are without excuse." (Romans 1:18-20) He also promises, "You will seek Me and find me when you search for Me with all your heart." (Jeremiah 29:13)
You see, God brings everyone to "God-consciousness" through the witness of creation. When a person anywhere, in any culture comes to God-consciousness – and then desires to know this God, He will move Heaven and Earth to get the true message to him. If he dies without hearing about Jesus Christ, it's because he did not want to know the true God.

So........ what about the people who dont desire to know god after experiencing this "god consciousness"?

10. Christians are sinners, according to their own teaching. So what is the difference between a Christian who sins and a non-believer?

This objection misses the point. A Christian receives a new nature and the Spirit of God comes to dwell in him it at the point of the "new spiritual birth." He still has an old nature that wants to sin. When the Christian fails to say no to temptation and depend upon God's Spirit, he sins.
The difference, however, is that a Christian cannot be happy anymore living in sin. He becomes miserable and wants to return to fellowship with God. As soon as he confesses his sin to God, he is forgiven and brought back into fellowship. But though the Christian can get out of fellowship, he cannot lose his relationship with God. That has been secured forever by the death of Jesus Christ in his place. God will not disown a child that He purchased with His own blood.

Yup. They both "sin", but one of them just doesnt believe in god.

The 10 reasons for not being a Christian, therefore, are really 10 reasons why, if you haven't already, you should be on your knees – right now – receive the gift of pardon that Jesus purchased by dying in your place.

Errrrrrr.................. not really. Whoever wrote that still relied on what the bible said to prove their point. And we cant prove the bible's crediblity beyond faith.

People don't threaten with hell,

Ya they do.

I accept that the bible teaches about hell, because it literally does talk about a place called hell, but I dont believe that there is such a place as hell.

 

[Nadiine]

I'm going to quote the ones that apply to me.

People don't threaten with hell

Ya they do.

I accept that the bible teaches about hell, because it literally does talk about a place called hell, but I dont believe that there is such a place as hell.

You make the classic mistake of judging "threat" with "warning".

People WARN you of God's promise of condemnation for the unrepentant soul.
To threaten would mean people WANT you to go there; if that's the case, why are they even witnessing God at all? They could just be silent and not share anything with you for the same result (without wasting their time or hearing your retaliations).
It makes no sense that they "threaten" with hell if they wanted you to go there!


I often WARN people of smoking causing serious health risks... is my warning of cancer, heart attack and emphazema THREATENING?
Wouldn't you warn people if they were drunk, ready to drive a vehicle?? (I'd hope so).
Wouldn't you warn a child if they were ready to cross a street when you see a car coming that they don't see?

That isn't Threat... you're trying to keep them from harm.

Do we tell people to stop eating junk food just so they'll be miserable? Or do we want to keep people from being obese with health problems?
It only makes sense that not everything with a BAD result is THREAT.


There are TONS of things in life we say "you better" or "you better not do.." due to bad or dangerous consequences; even if we "threaten" with a death penalty for murder... it's because we want to HINDER people from harming others. It's for the good of all (including the would-be murderer).


Never mistake Threat with WARNING.
Additionally, to claim we use threats, is judging. You're judging that we have bad intent or motive when you cannot possibly know that.

 

[IWantToBelieve]

K, then quit "warning" me of something that I dont believe in. If I "warned" you that if you didnt believe that bees were your 6th generation of parents that you would be put in a giant freezer and mauled to death by vegetarian crabs that pelt you with spears carved out of butter under the leadership of a buck-toothed curly haired 16 year old individual who is addicted to World of Warcraft and is a proud member of PETA, and you didnt believe me because it just sounds rediculous without proof that I cant provide, you might understand how silly this whole "warning" thing feels to me. It simply doesnt feel very much like a warning without some kind of incentive that I can associate with.

I would say, it's a warning if you have proof, it's a threat if you dont. And that's just my opinion on it, so I will continue considering "repent or go to hell" posts as threats, because it is threatening me into believing something that I dont naturally believe in, thus from my viewpoint it's a more of a provoked attack than anything. May not seem that way to you, but to me it will always be that way.

because if that's all he got out of what all I posted, then he's blinded by the views of the world.

Blinded by the views of the world? Well then, ma'am, you're blinded by the views of your religion.

 

[red77]

People don't threaten with hell, it's God's system so that [unforgiven/active] SIN doesn't permeate and continue to curse & work against the living after God restores everything after judgment.

I'd choose the TRUE doctrine over embracing what sounds nice to me - sure, I'd LOVE the easy way out - but the 'easy' way leads to destruction.
Proverbs 14:12 "There is a way that SEEMS right to a man, but its end is the way of death."
No thanx.

In the End it's only TRUTH that matters. If he's wrong (which the Bible clearly relays- Rev. 20:7-14, - -and even the majority of atheists & agnostics accept the bible teaches there is a Hell), his witness won't help anyone.

Doctor's often have to give bad news... should we just ignore them or hunt down other Dr's. who'll give us a better diagnosis?
And what good is telling you something false so you can't make an informed decision for your health based on FACT?

Embracing what sounds nice if it's not the truth, isn't HELP.

2 Tim 4:3 "For the time will come when they will not endure (put up with) sound doctrine, but according to their own desires, because they have itching ears, they will heap up for themselves teachers; and they will turn their ears away from the truth and be turned aside to fables."

Well, when u get around to explaining what the irrefutable truth of hell actually is and when Momma2H and Jim47 agree unequivocably and y'all start shouting the exact same thing........then maybe you can start lecturing to others about truth.......simply saying that u love 'truth' and then failing to give a clear interpretation of what it actually is means nothing........WHAT is hell exactly? is it eternal or is it cast into the lake of fire....? What is the lake of fire....? Is it literal? Is it metaphorical..? These answers should be totally easy for someone who knows the truth about what happens to those who dont believe........you, Momma2H and Jim47 constantly try to sidestep the contradictions and inconsistency in your positions.........and then try to lecture about truth to those who disagree with u..........
It seems that not one of you has a clear explanation for this subject at all................and you's should have....

Doctors have a tough job I'm sure, when they have to give bad news I'm sure they dont enjoy it, and when they give advice it'll be for the patient's benefit and to try and minimise further harm, this is God we're talking about.........we're his beings who he loves..........its only your unclear,dogmatic religion that states he's an eternal torturer of human souls.............

 

[red77]

K, then quit "warning" me of something that I dont believe in. If I "warned" you that if you didnt believe that bees were your 6th generation of parents that you would be put in a giant freezer and mauled to death by vegetarian crabs that pelt you with spears carved out of butter under the leadership of a buck-toothed curly haired 16 year old individual who is addicted to World of Warcraft and is a proud member of PETA, and you didnt believe me because it just sounds rediculous without proof that I cant provide, you might understand how silly this whole "warning" thing feels to me. It simply doesnt feel very much like a warning without some kind of incentive that I can associate with.

I would say, it's a warning if you have proof, it's a threat if you dont. And that's just my opinion on it, so I will continue considering "repent or go to hell" posts as threats, because it is threatening me into believing something that I dont naturally believe in, thus from my viewpoint it's a more of a provoked attack than anything. May not seem that way to you, but to me it will always be that way.



Blinded by the views of the world? Well then, ma'am, you're blinded by the views of your religion.

Hey IWantToBelieve

Dont be blinded by any of our views man, debates abound over this stuff, jus keep searching and be open and the answers will come your way if you do

 

[red77]

First, I was disagreeing to your statement that you can be both a universalist and a Christian. These denominations have contradicting beliefs.

Secondly, I don't "mix" with a lot of the people at my church, (for it is a very big church) and I'm sure somewhere along the lines, we may have some disagreements on certain topics, such a discipline of children and things of that nature, but I'm very sure the majority does believe in hell. All of the preachers I've seen on tv, from local churches around my city, all preach of hell and it's reality. Are they lying, when they've gone through years of training and studying to become preachers in the first place? Are most of the Christians in my city wrong (which is a big city, btw), just because you don't want to accept the truth?

No human can ever understand God and His reasoning. We just aren't capable of it. If He says hell exists, then it does and there's nothing we can do about it, but trust in Him as our Lord and Savior, so that we won't end up there and share the good news that Jesus made a way for us not to have to go there.

You really need to check your facts before making sweeping statements, u dont seem to know anything about universalism........a universalist is a Christian....!!! We may differ on the doctrine but God/Christ is the foundation......you are wrong on this and you'd be best to check it out........

So what if preachers preach hellfire and brimstone........its years of inrooted tradition and it doesnt make it right no matter how many get up and shout it....

Yes, God is beyond our reasoning........thats why I'll trust God and not follow dogma about hell made up by men........hell is mentioned in the bible but its only the right wing evangelicals that make it out to be a literal eternal place of torture........and it doesnt say that hell is eternal.......you give me a passage where it says beyond doubt that it is and I'll listen....!

 

[red77]

Awesome!!

I'm not even going to reply to IWantToBelieve's statement about me only talking of "brimstone and fire", because if that's all he got out of what all I posted, then he's blinded by the views of the world. I wouldn't be excited to have found a friend who also thinks there's a way around the truth, just because he doesn't like the facts. But, that's just me.

U havent given any facts.....just suppositions and subjectures...........tell me where exactly it says that 'hell' is eternal and what exactly it is....otherwise you do not have any facts..........just a doctrinated message taught by your church.........

 

[red77]

People don't threaten with hell, it's God's system so that [unforgiven/active] SIN doesn't permeate and continue to curse & work against the living after God restores everything after judgment.

I'd choose the TRUE doctrine over embracing what sounds nice to me - sure, I'd LOVE the easy way out - but the 'easy' way leads to destruction.
Proverbs 14:12 "There is a way that SEEMS right to a man, but its end is the way of death."
No thanx.

In the End it's only TRUTH that matters. If he's wrong (which the Bible clearly relays- Rev. 20:7-14, - -and even the majority of atheists & agnostics accept the bible teaches there is a Hell), his witness won't help anyone.

Doctor's often have to give bad news... should we just ignore them or hunt down other Dr's. who'll give us a better diagnosis?
And what good is telling you something false so you can't make an informed decision for your health based on FACT?

Embracing what sounds nice if it's not the truth, isn't HELP.

2 Tim 4:3 "For the time will come when they will not endure (put up with) sound doctrine, but according to their own desires, because they have itching ears, they will heap up for themselves teachers; and they will turn their ears away from the truth and be turned aside to fables."

The true doctrine where noone can agree on anything..........right............what is the point of banging on about truth when u dont even know what the truth actually is......? try and answer my questions about 'hell' from a few posts ago.......if u can give irrefutable answers which point to an unequivocable truth in a clear way then I'll listen........otherwise constantly saying 'truth' means absolutely nothing........

 

[Nadiine]

The true doctrine where noone can agree on anything..........right............what is the point of banging on about truth when u dont even know what the truth actually is......? try and answer my questions about 'hell' from a few posts ago.......if u can give irrefutable answers which point to an unequivocable truth in a clear way then I'll listen........otherwise constantly saying 'truth' means absolutely nothing........

Oh... Sorry, I didn't see any detailed post you submitted on hell?? (lately i've had a few replies that aren't showing up in my subscriptions pg.)
I'll check your post hopefully later today.

Even tho I think it's going off topic since the OP isn't debating Hell specifically, 'iwanto' is involved w/ where it's going, so i'll go ahead.

Hell is a lengthy & detailed issue and I will need some time to put together a decent stab at it.
In the meantime, I again say this, your worldview is in direct refutation to all Traditional and Orthodox Christian teachings of the early Christian church...
The Bible continually warns us of NEW doctrines that come into the church; non traditional doctrines.

Either you're right, or the majority of all the early churches have been wrong for centuries!

 

[Nadiine]

The true doctrine where noone can agree on anything..........right............what is the point of banging on about truth when u dont even know what the truth actually is......?

Forgot to note:
Yet YOU disagree (as a self proclaimed Christian) w/ the vast majority of Christians regarding hell and 'reconciliation to God' -while claiming YOURS is the real "Christian" truth...???

Since YOU yourself proclaim you're a "Christian", that places you in the same boat of "disagreeing with other Christians" on a doctrinal issue.

Put yourself in the position of a non believer, what do THEY SEE?
One "Christian" (you) disagreeing with the majority of other "Christians" (us).
It's STILL "christian vs christian" in their eyes; so what gives YOU the right to "teach truth" of hell/reconciliation when WE disagree with YOU?? (as per your refusal to allow Christians to state what "truth is" when there is doctrinal disagreement among Christians)

It means that your position equally disqualifies you from being able to teach or witness 'truth' to anyone (as a "Christian") when other Christians disagree w/ yours.

Technically, (as per your statement), you'de actually need to make the assertion that those of us who disagree with your theology are NOT genuine Christians in order to keep from disqualifying yourself from being able to relay "Christian/doctrinal truth" to others.


Otherwise, you're in no position to witness any biblical "truth" yourself with any possible credibility of being correct.

 

[red77]

Oh... Sorry, I didn't see any detailed post you submitted on hell?? (lately i've had a few replies that aren't showing up in my subscriptions pg.)
I'll check your post hopefully later today.

Even tho I think it's going off topic since the OP isn't debating Hell specifically, 'iwanto' is involved w/ where it's going, so i'll go ahead.

Hell is a lengthy & detailed issue and I will need some time to put together a decent stab at it.
In the meantime, I again say this, your worldview is in direct refutation to all Traditional and Orthodox Christian teachings of the early Christian church...
The Bible continually warns us of NEW doctrines that come into the church; non traditional doctrines.

Either you're right, or the majority of all the early churches have been wrong for centuries!

I didnt submit a detailed post on hell, i said i asked questions, I'll rewrite the questions....where does it say in the bible that hell is eternal? what exactly does it say that hell is? Does it irrefutably say that hell is an eternal place of torture? What happens when its thrown into the lake of fire? What is the lake of fire? Is it a literal place or is it metaphor as in most of revelation?

If u cant answer clearly and concisely what exactly hell is then there's no point in this.......? and I'll say why its up to you who believe this doctrine to back yourselves up with proof undebatable.........your teaching means that all those who i love and care about are right now destined to be tortured by God for whatever the reason.......


I'm not interested in hearing the various reasons u have as to why that is justified, these are people whom your dogma states are going to be roasted, fried, psychologically broken beyond repair, suffering beyond endurance.....and for those reasons alone i expect those who ascribe to this 'doctrine' to be in complete agreement and consistent with their views and be able to have the truth between them...........otherwise your words are meaningless, if this is what God has planned then it should be clear as day in the bible with no room for doubt whatsoever.....

I think you'll find that universalism is very far from a 'new' doctrine, it was around at the time of the beginnings of the early church, without having details to hand Gregory, Augustine promoted a view that God would redeem all men but the early church zoned in on hell, as I've already mentioned and without being a greek scholar by any means the only versions of the bible that contain the word 'eternal' used the secondary definition of the greek word 'aionios' whose primary definition means 'lasting of an age'......several bibles have this translation........if the bible was meant to say eternal then the greek word to reflect that in its primary definition would be 'aidios'...........several people on the UT site of this forum who espose eternal punishment have been stumped to answer this one, some of which have apparently studied greek............if u know any better then me on this then please feel free to correct me........


Either way universalism is not a new doctrine.......if anything it actually predates the early orthodox church!!
..........It seems to me that God came into this world to share a message..........its only man thats complicated this message with denominational churches and different doctrines............


On a point that you brought up in one of yesterdays posts about it not being worth while being a christian if everyone ends up being saved anyway.........the more I've thought about that the more and more bewildering it is to me.............you said there was NO reason to be a Christian..........? Do you honestly still stand by that......? The whole point to me would be that you have hope and a love in your own life which you could share with others....! To bring hope to others and share that love with people who are undergoing all sorts of afflictions and suffering and anxieties...........I thought Christianity was as much about the here and now as afterwards............


And the other point you made about those who believe in eternal punishment being in outcry about the injustice of God forgiving everyone......................quite frankly that is ABHORRENT..........if there any christians who clamour for justice meaning the eternal punishment of their fellow man who hasn't believed then they in no way exhibit the love and compassion that is actually commanded as part of being a christian.......that is actually beyond belief to me..........i hope i misread your post somehow and that there aren't any people u know who think like that..........good grief, if they had true love and compassion they would be overjoyed that God's mercy and grace encompassed everybody, not moan and mumble on about it 'not being fair, they didnt repent but I did'............................