How Come? version 2.0

IgnatiusOfAntioch · May 31, 2006

IWantToBelieve said:
Well, I really just want to know whether or not he's actually there or not. People keep telling me that I need to rely on faith, but I'm the kind of guy who relies on fact over faith.

One cannot "prove" faith. If it could be proven beyond a doubt, it would not require any faith to believe it. Faith is that which we are convinced of is that Truth, but that cannot be proven.

Momma2H · May 31, 2006

Ok, so you should believe in God only if you want to. It's obvious that you don't want to, so there's nothing that anyone can say, that hasn't already been said, that can "convince" you. You have to do it on your own. All we can do is share with you the truth and then it's up to you to believe or not to believe.

BTW, the only reason there were debates in the first place is because you're the one who was questioning everyone else's responses, so if you don't want a debate, don't respond with more questions to someone's particular belief. They are explaining it how they believe it and if you don't like it and don't want to debate about it, then don't respond. Easy as that.

IWantToBelieve · May 31, 2006

Reformationist said:
Umm..IWTB, are you simply looking for someone to convince you that the God of the Bible is real? If so, you're engaging in an exercise in futility. Faith in God is not the product of being convinced of His truth. We will share the truth of the Gospel with you, if you desire to hear it, but, if you're thinking that any of us have the ability to create faith in you, you're sadly mistaken.

Also, if I may, your username is "IWantToBelieve." You may have already answered this but, what is it that you want to believe and why do you want to believe it?

God bless

What I'm looking for is whether or not I SHOULD have faith in him. It's silly to ask, because all christians will say that I should have faith in god. If there is a god, would you want to believe in him? Certianly, and that's my case. But what if god isnt real?

Ok, so you should believe in God only if you want to. It's obvious that you don't want to, so there's nothing that anyone can say, that hasn't already been said, that can "convince" you. You have to do it on your own. All we can do is share with you the truth and then it's up to you to believe or not to believe.

Saying that I dont want to believe in a god that cant be proven is an excellent observation. But that shouldn't make you give up so easily, tell me why you believe god is real without saying "the bible tells me so."

BTW, the only reason there were debates in the first place is because you're the one who was questioning everyone else's responses, so if you don't want a debate, don't respond with more questions to someone's particular belief. They are explaining it how they believe it and if you don't like it and don't want to debate about it, then don't respond. Easy as that.

I will question responses when they dont make sense to me. I didnt ask for a debate. Nadiine started the fire when she would not stop contradicting others' beliefs in god, specifically Red's. I am open to all opinions, but that does not mean that I will accept all opinions as the truth, nor does it mean that my thread is open ground to try to change the views of others. That is offtopic, just state your own opinion and leave others' alone. When you go and claim others are wrong and that yours is the right one, it's no longer you voicing your opinion for me to hear, it's you pushing your opinion onto me and everyone else, and that's not what my thread is for. Red77 even apologized for backing up his beliefs in my thread, even though he was just believing in what he thought was right in response to what others said. I've gotten no such apology from anyone else, but I see no reason for Red to have apologized because he was told that his opinions was wrong. My thread will NOT be the place to convert other christians. My thread is about me. Me me me. Because I'm greedy and want attention. You dont like the fact that I havent completely given up hope on christianity and still visit these forums to hear out what others say? Fine, dont reply, just leave the thread. But I assure you, this thread will be the last place for arguing over who's right about some religion. If you dont like the fact that I dont want preachers preaching other preachers in my thread, then dont respond. Easy as that.

red77 · May 31, 2006

I'll have a go at trying to explain why I believe God exists without using the bible..........its basically experiences that I've had that I cant put down to anything or anyone else.........

when i first decided to take the leap of faith I felt an inner calm and peace for about six weeks which was pretty undescribable, all the problems i was experiencing (which were quite a few at the time) just faded into insignificance, it was like there was another controlling hand at work for those weeks where all the emotional pain and upheaval that i was going through was just magically wiped away in a sense......I had a strength to deal with things which i wouldnt have had on my own and those weeks helped me to retain some of it for difficult times that were ahead too, ironically with a church........! I cant say whether everyone has had a similar experience who first believes but I have met a few who have, I did question it as well afterwards, was it just delusion? Was it as real as I imagined? etc but i recall some of it in pretty clear detail.....it was a feeling unlike any other I've had and it'd be pretty hard to imagine........!

Anyway.....thats one reason.....another which i may have already mentioned is music, this always reaffirms my belief in God because its simply too amazing and complex to be pure accident (I'm a muso so I am biased in this respect....!) the intricate and infinite array of sounds that are there within the mathematical framework never cease to astound me to be honest.....its something that brings so much pleasure to mine and i should imagine most peoples lives in one way or another........yet its something we take for granted tho i cant imagine a worthwhile life without it.......!
Well......probably hardly convincing evidence of the divine creator I'm sure but i hope these ramblings have ben of some use in helping you search onwards....!

Reformationist · May 31, 2006

IWantToBelieve said:
What I'm looking for is whether or not I SHOULD have faith in him. It's silly to ask, because all christians will say that I should have faith in god.

Well, I am a Christian and so, obviously, I am going to tell you that you should have faith in Him. What I'd like to know is, if the normative Christian answer is that you should have faith in Him, and you find that such consistancy makes it "silly to ask," why do you ask?

If there is a god, would you want to believe in him?

There is, and I would.

But what if god isnt real?

Then there is no salvation and the question of our existance must be answered in another way.

Any ideas?

IWantToBelieve · May 31, 2006

What I'd like to know is, if the normative Christian answer is that you should have faith in Him, and you find that such consistancy makes it "silly to ask," why do you ask?

I meant that it's silly for me to ask a christian if they think I should have faith in god, because I should already assume that the answer will be yes.

The question of our existance must be answered in another way. Any ideas?

I wish I could 100% know where the universe came from. The most believable answer I've come up with, which I still dont completely agree with, is the Big Bang theory.

Reformationist · May 31, 2006

IWantToBelieve said:
I meant that it's silly for me to ask a christian if they think I should have faith in god, because I should already assume that the answer will be yes.

I know what you meant and I'm still curious, if you already assume that will be their answer, why do you ask?

The most believable answer I've come up with, which I still dont completely agree with, is the Big Bang theory.

For my edification, would you please share with me, in your own words, what it is about the "Big Bang Theory" that makes it so plausible in your mind.

Thanks,
God bless

IWantToBelieve · May 31, 2006

Reformationist said:
I know what you meant and I'm still curious, if you already assume that will be their answer, why do you ask?

If I ask a christian if I should have faith in god, they'll say yes. I ask because maybe someday one of them will give me a reason to have faith in something that I cant see or feel.

For my edification, would you please share with me, in your own words, what it is about the "Big Bang Theory" that makes it so plausible in your mind.

Scientifically, at least it is an attempt to explain the creation of the universe.

Reformationist · May 31, 2006

IWantToBelieve said:
If I ask a christian if I should have faith in god, they'll say yes. I ask because maybe someday one of them will give me a reason to have faith in something that I cant see or feel.

If you want a reason to believe in something you can neither see nor feel, ask for that. Asking Christians whether you should have faith in God while wanting to know why you should have faith in God is rather confusing.

Scientifically, at least it is an attempt to explain the creation of the universe.

Okay. Being that you find it to be the most viable perspective of our existance, please explain the premise stated by the Big Bang theory that you feel does a better job of explaining the characteristics of humanity than does divine creation.

Momma2H · May 31, 2006

IWantToBelieve said:
I am open to all opinions, but that does not mean that I will accept all opinions as the truth, nor does it mean that my thread is open ground to try to change the views of others.

But, isn't the point of your thread to change your view of the existence of God?? Or to convince you that there is one, which would also change you view on the matter? Just curious...

chilehed · May 31, 2006

IWantToBelieve said:
Well, I really just want to know whether or not he's actually there or not. People keep telling me that I need to rely on faith, but I'm the kind of guy who relies on fact over faith...

I'm an engineer, so I rely on facts. I could tell you the reasoning that convinced me if you like.

BTW, faith and facts are not mutually exclusive. They're complimentary.

IWantToBelieve · May 31, 2006

Okay. Being that you find it to be the most viable perspective of our existance, please explain the premise stated by the Big Bang theory that you feel does a better job of explaining the characteristics of humanity than does divine creation.

Probably the part where the little ball of mass explodes.

Momma2H said:
But, isn't the point of your thread to change your view of the existence of God?? Or to convince you that there is one, which would also change you view on the matter? Just curious...

That's exactly my point, instead of focusing on changing my view on the existence of god, people like Nadiine where instead focusing on the opinions of others.

I'm an engineer, so I rely on facts. I could tell you the reasoning that convinced me if you like.

Please do, I'm all ears.

Key · May 31, 2006

WickedServant said:
Eh... I wouldn't be too hasty in throwing out the message because you don't particularly like the messenger.

All I'm saying is that not all Christians are going to seem like wonderful people from the outside; just that they are more likely to be better people than they would be without God.

May you be blessed.

The Truth of that scares the daylights out of me some days.

God Bless
Key

Key · May 31, 2006

IWantToBelieve said:
Probably the part where the little ball of mass explodes.

You do realize of course that raw Mass can't just "Go Boom" right?

God Bless
Key

IWantToBelieve · Jun 1, 2006

Key said:
You do realize of course that raw Mass can't just "Go Boom" right?

God Bless
Key
[/font]

Sheesh, now it's like you guys think that I actually believe in the thing. No, that's not what I said. But it makes more sense than some dude saying "let there be light" and everything's made in 7 days. If I had to choose between the two, I would definately go with the exploding ball of mass. It's a theory, and wikipedia does a pretty good job of covering the subject to explain why this certian ball of mass might have gone boom.

WickedServant said:
just that they are more likely to be better people than they would be without God.

I just noticed this. Wow dude, if you really feel this way, then I'm going to politely ask for you to please leave the topic.

Reformationist · Jun 1, 2006

IWantToBelieve said:
Probably the part where the little ball of mass explodes.

IWTB, with all due respect, you contend that you find the Big Bang theory, a view that you appear to know nothing about, more viable than divine creatorship and then seem affronted when someone actually takes you at your word. You minimize your previous alliance with a more "scientific" approach by claiming that it was merely lip service to a belief in the Big Bang theory and not something to which you actually subscribe.

How are we supposed to take you serious if you've never seriously considered the revelation of God? It reminds me of this young (21 or so) girl I once knew. She would say, "I believe in Jesus but that's it." Instead of refraining from saying anything, she would stave off any attempt at discussion with a nonsensical affiliation with beliefs that clearly didn't have a foundation in an actual consideration of that in which she claimed to believe.

I say, if you're going to claim to believe in something, at least be able to defend what it is you believe.

God bless

IWantToBelieve · Jun 1, 2006

Reformationist said:
IWTB, with all due respect, you contend that you find the Big Bang theory, a view that you appear to know nothing about, more viable than divine creatorship and then seem affronted when someone actually takes you at your word. You minimize your previous alliance with a more "scientific" approach by claiming that it was merely lip service to a belief in the Big Bang theory and not something to which you actually subscribe.

Well, since I dont believe in a divine creatorship, and you're asking me how I think we got here, I gave you the best answer I could.

How are we supposed to take you serious if you've never seriously considered the revelation of God?

If you cant help me, you can leave? Plenty of other people here are able to voice their opinions using what I've already told them. You're putting words in my mouth by saying that I've never seriously considered the revelation of god, and also that I know little to nothing about the Big Bang theory. Both statements 100% wrong. You should really think a little farther ahead when it comes to things like this, dont just assume that because you dont know me in real life doesnt mean that I've at least tried to accept that there is a god, or that I would accept a theory as to the creation of the universe just because I think it's a possibility. So it's your choice, are you here to tell me why you believe in god or are we just going to discuss why I think that scientific reasoning is more viable to me than a book that may or may not be fiction? The answer is: it simply is. I would much rather try to make scientific sense of something than to say "it just does". This isnt a bad thing, y'know. It's good to know the why's and how's of how things work. And it certainly doesnt hurt for me to ask. It's clear to me that christianity isnt something that you can prove physically to someone else. You dont understand why I've opened this thread, I solely want to hear WHY I should believe in god, and part of that is hearing about others' experiences with god. This thread is NOT the place to contradict my current beliefs and put words in my mouth.

I'll claim to believe this. I claim that I think that the bible is fiction, that god does not exist, and that this entire universe has an origin that will eventually be proven by scientists, if it has not already been. Now, according to your instructions, it is your turn to defend why you think that your religion is the right one. However, this is not how it works here. We've tried that already in the last thread, it didnt work, because noone could agree with each other. I'm here to hear what you have to say about why I should accept jesus christ as my saviour, and that's pretty much it. If I agree, then I agree. If I dont, well, I dont. I wont disgrace anyone's opinion, I'm going to tell them what I think without negating theirs. That is the nicest way to do this, and I'm all about being nice.

seanmc · Jun 1, 2006

http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/teleological-arguments/

These types of arguments converted noted, or famous, atheist Antony Flew to theism.

Momma2H · Jun 1, 2006

IWantToBelieve, can I just ask you a few questions? Why do you need us to tell you why you should accept Christ as your Savior? What's the point if you don't believe it anyway? Is there a certain thing you're waiting to hear that hasn't already been said?

I'll tell you why I accepted Jesus as my Savior. Because I wanted to. I was taught about Him in Sunday school and about how He died on the cross for my sins, so that I could one day be in heaven with Him. But the only way I could go to heaven was by accepting Him in my heart. So, that's what I did. I have a personal relationship with Him to this day. I know he's real because He lives inside of me. I have been so blessed and I know it's not from my own doing. I don't deserve half the things I have or the life I'm living. There have been hard times, but I've found comfort in knowing that He is there for me through anything. He is a father to me and He's my strength. I couldn't imagine my life without Him in it. I'd assume it would be kind of like yours of uncertainty and wonder. But, I have no feelings of uncertainty and I am very confident about Jesus being my Savior and that God is the one true God, and that He does in fact exist. There's my personal experience.

IgnatiusOfAntioch · Jun 1, 2006

chilehed said:
I'm an engineer, so I rely on facts. I could tell you the reasoning that convinced me if you like.

BTW, faith and facts are not mutually exclusive. They're complimentary.

I would like to hear your explanation please.

How Come? version 2.0

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