It's odd that you find the termination of a discussion you weren't willing to entertain in the first place that interesting.
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Did you want to keep discussing this with me for some reason ? I am willing to politely stop, as I'm also kind of losing interest at this point in these aspects of the discussion anyways. If you wanted to keep going however, I suppose I will.
That's not exactly what I was saying ... here lemme give an example ...I agree that most (if not all) "supernatural" events are wrongly attributed, and are simply natural.
But that does not render the idea of the supernatural into nonsense. And IF there is genuine supernatural interference in our natural world, nothing youve described renders the idea: that a supernatural event could have natural effect, into illogic.
Mis-attribution of natural events onto supernatural causes was not the initial complaint in this thread.
There's something about the grammar of this sentence, I don't totally get what you're trying to say.It's odd that you find the termination of a discussion you weren't willing to entertain in the first place that interesting.
There's something about the grammar of this sentence, I don't totally get what you're trying to say.
The last couple of posts however, you've made assumptions about what I was willing to entertain, or would like or not like concerning things.
My intention is not to misunderstand you, In fact quite the opposite.I'm not a fan of straw man building, or paralipsis type ad homs, etc ... I would not have expected you to even hint at going in those directions, actually. I tend to not even engage discussion with people whom I think are going to exhibit that type of behavior. So I hope you're not going in that direction, because I didn't expect that from you tbh ... I've read some of your previous posts in other threads, and assumed from what I remember reading that you would likely not go in those directions ... that's why I engaged you in the first place, because I hoped we could explore a few things you had said without those types of things. When I begin to see them, I rarely even address those types of comments.
You've been trying to "figure out" why we are talking past one another, and "losing interest" and also very unwilling to question any of your assumptions, so I do know why we are talking past one another and have said as much.It's pretty normal behavior for people to begin to lose interest in things and stop talking about them. If they gain interest again they may come back, or they may not. I thought you explained your statements fairly clearly overall, I finally saw what I thought I was trying to put my finger on ... you said yourself you didn't see the point in more lengthy discussion or something to that effect ... so I'm cool with stopping at this point. If you really want to keep talking about it with me, why ? And it's fine if you don't respond to this thread also, I'm cool.
Thank you.ETA: Your post signature is one of my favorite on the forum, btw.
Yes you have, such as here:I have not misinterpreted or misrepresented your posts in the least.
If you are going to start claiming things about me which are not factual, then we really have nothing left to discuss. I don't dig on manipulation.... and also very unwilling to question any of your assumptions ...
Yes you have, such as here:
If you are going to start claiming things about me which are not factual, then we really have nothing left to discuss. I don't dig on manipulation.
"can interact with" and " is a part of" seem to be different ideas to me.
You simply seem to think touching the natural universe makes you an integral part of it, or that it would make something inherently "natural".
I don't think this is necessarily true.
You havent measured the supernatural. What you described is measuring its effect on the natural world.
I have no example of supernatural interference to offer. As far as I know, there are none. But I'm not sure.
How can the supernatural affect the natural if they do not have at least something in common?
How can you discern between the natural and supernatural? Once a supernatural thing occurs within our physical world, it is no longer beyond the laws of the physical world and would therefore be part of the natural world.
With the wind we measure a material effect of a material cause. Not sure the relevance to this discussion.And when we measure the strength of the wind, are we actually measuring the amount that each air molecule moves, or are we measuring the wind's effect on a spinning propeller?
But shouldn't that indicate something to you? Given that there is no reliable evidence of the supernatural, why do you consider it still a possibility? There's no evidence for magical shoe elves either. Do you consider that they might be real?
A couple things:That's not exactly what I was saying ... here lemme give an example ...
Let's say suddenly I managed to disappear from where I'm sitting, and reappear somewhere 200 miles from here, where it can be well documented what happened to me ... and that when I reappear, all these "ghost" like beings start appearing, claiming to be "spirit beings", they claim that the spiritual world is real, they perform healing miracles, they cause soil to somehow form into a fully functioning human being before our very eyes, they have wings and glowing rings of light around them, etc. They also flash back and forth before us in a strange manner due to their nature, I mean ... just full blown extraordinary events. Let's say they even claim some religion on earth had it right the whole time, etc. They may even produce dead relatives that people recognize, famous people, who appear in a new form, having transcended their previous state into a new one ...
Let's say all of that happens, what I'm saying is that the term "supernatural" and it's definition as I understand it, basically doesn't give place for any of that to happen in our natural world and actually have an effect or even occur as an event. That is a better way to phrase it. The term "supernatural" and it's definition, the way I understand it, is self contradicting IF we apply it to events that take place within the natural world. So to say a cause is supernatural, the effect is natural ... I don't see how that follows. Why make that jump ? How could one objectively show that all of those events are not subject to the physics in our universe, when we *don't understand all the principles of physics within our universe * thus couldn't it simply be an issue of us not understanding the principles yet ? I don't have an issue with the "events" that often get attributed to "supernatural" or the possibility of something happening, it's the term itself and way it's applied which seems contradictory. The way I read it, is for something to be supernatural, it CANNOT have a natural effect. Otherwise, it's not supernatural. Regardless of how incredible or amazing or baffling it is. "Supernatural" things are fine, so long as they don't become natural. Once they have a natural effect, in any capacity, how are they still "supernatural" ? Even if their origin was somehow of such a nature that they were in fact existing in a manner which wasn't subject to ANY principle of physics in our known universe, then the issue of causality comes into play and our place in it, etc and so forth.
Hope this explains it better ... but as I said to one other poster, I'm losing interest somewhat (since it's just kind of going round and round now also) so if you'd like to chill on the posting with me as well, that's cool too.
Who said they wouldn't?
Having the ability to interact does not necessarily make things fundamentally the same kind of thing it means they have the ability to interact.
Assuming you're using the term "supernatural" to describe "mysterious" events ...A couple things:
1. I'm ok with the supernatural being mysterious to us. In fact, I would expect it NOT to make sense to minds utterly conditioned to material reality.
2. Why make the jump from supernatural cause to material effect? Well, I would only make that jump if thats what actually happened. But, as I mentioned, I'm very skeptical about claims of supernatural 'interference' in the material world.
With the wind we measure a material effect of a material cause. Not sure the relevance to this discussion.
I consider the supernatural a possibility because of stories from people I trust. But, of course, I'm completely open to the possibility they are deluded in some way.
I also consider it possible that the supernatural is just a realm of the natural thats currently so far beyond our grasp that it feels categorically different.
Dude, if you keep with the irritating "You just wish to assume" stuff, I'll stop. I keep giving you the benefit of the doubt you're capable of more than ad hom crap.No you just wish to assume that all things that happen in the universe are natural. And, as far as you assume that there is no discussion to be had here.
It's not my assumption, it's your incorrect assumption of my position. Projecting straw men suck too.Here is the argument in logical terms:
P1 All things that interact with the natural are natural
P2 We can only view things via their interaction with the natural
C We can either then only ever see the supernatural if it is natural so the supernatural is either undefined or natural.
So what is the problem?
P1 is entirely questionable.
It's your assumption though so I don't feel the need to respect it.
How can you discern between the natural and supernatural? Once a supernatural thing occurs within our physical world, it is no longer beyond the laws of the physical world and would therefore be part of the natural world.
We we recently in our family had a supernatural event. One of our relatives in China contracted a disease that was incurable, or al leat most people die from. We were praying in Australia for her as a family as I prayed I felt a really strong sense that all the family members would be saved. But what happened was that she got worse and worse, to the pont she entered a coma state. The doctors gave up on her and told the father of the woman to call together all the family members for a funeral. All the family (in China) was flown into the city. The father of the girl did not give up praying, as he was praying he felt a strong impression that she had been healed. So he asked the doctor to let him in to see her. When the doctor went in she had been completely healed. She came out of the coma, she has left the hospital. on seeing this all the family members who came for the funeral gave their lives to Jesus.
You infer that from a lifetime of observing natural events. But you dont KNOW that it holds true for the supernatural and its effects.The point is that if something can have an effect on something else, then they must have something in common. And since everything about something natural is, well, NATURAL, then anything SUPERnatural must also have some natural part as well, and we can measure it.....
Dude, if you keep with the irritating "You just wish to assume" stuff, I'll stop. I keep giving you the benefit of the doubt you're capable of more than ad hom crap.
P1 Things that interact with the natural, are then essentially indistinguishable from the natural at those points.
P2 Things can be observed or experienced as events once they interact within the natural.
I would drop C all together, and state the following:
The supernatural can exist in theory, and can perhaps even be known conceptually ... however to interact with it, or have it interact within our universe, by definition the term "supernatural" is no longer sufficient, and it becomes unnecessary and misleading.
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