how can you be sure that the devil is evil and the bible is correct?

[Ken-1122]

Kudos to you for pointing out my mistake, but after reading the actual text and a post on puritanboard.com (sorry it won't let me link the page ) i believe this has been misinterpreted. The Israelites were battling the Amorites at a place called Gibeon where in Joshua 10:10 it says that "the Lord discomfited(routed) them before Israel...and chased them along the way that goeth up to Bethhoron" (KJV) then if you look at verse 12 "...Sun stand thou still upon Gibeon and thou, Moon in the valley of Ajalon". Joshua was praying for an extended period of darkness, since the Amorites were fleeing away from the battle at Gibeon. The most accepted "natural" reason of how this happend is that there was a solar eclipse, or the hailstorm that was created in verse 11 blocked out the Sun.

It says "the Sun stood still" it doesn't say anything about something blocking the Sun or everything going dark.

I would be intrigued to know how a momentary retardation of the Earths rotation could cause any kind of massive change (since i don't consider myself an expert on earth science)

Imagine driving in your car at 60mph and you slam into a brick wall. Momentium is what causes you to hit the windshield or dashboard and die. Now imagine going over 10,000 mph and hitting a brick wall! The Earth currently rotates at over 10,000 mph. if it were to come to a screetching halt, momendium would destroy everything on Earth.
Now don't get me wrong, I am not trying to attack anybody's beliefs or any thing, I am just saying, to believe these stories requires faith; they are not based in scientific logic as Juvenissun is claiming.

Ken

 

[Ken-1122]

So far, I have successfully defended every challenge you posed to me.

I don't know too much about the 5th dimension. I "learned" a little from literature (other people's work) and used it in my argument. I don't see anything wrong with that. Do you know what is the "references" about in an argument? If you need to be an actual expert to make any claim, then you better tape your mouth and never utter a word.

You know much less on the issue than me. If you have hard time to see my simple explanation, then why should I explain more to you even if I could?

You answered all my questions? I listed 4 examples of bible stories I said require faith to believe:
the creation story
Joana swallowed by the whale
The Noah’s ark story
Joshua stopping the sun from setting during war

And YOU said they are based in logic. I believe your exact words were; “If you would like to talk about the scientific/engineering details on any of the stories, we can do that”

You almost immediately said Jonahs fish story was a miracle; which means no engineering/scientific explanation here;

With the creation story you tried to say the Earth existed before the Sun which goes against science; so no scientific engineering explanation here,

With Noah’s Ark, after a couple of pages of holding your feet to the fire, your exact words were “I don't feel comfortable to talk about things that I don't know and you don't know either. It is meaningless. So I will stop on this Ark structure issue. It is not a logic issue, it is an engineering issue” In other words; no scientific/engineering explanation here,

Now with Joshua’s extended day, you claim this 5th dimension that would make it possible. After holding your feet to the fire on that one, you admit you know little about the 5th dimension, but you know of somebody else who does! In other words, you provided no scientific/explanation here either.

No my friend; you've defended nothing

Ken

 

[juvenissun]

You answered all my questions? I listed 4 examples of bible stories I said require faith to believe:
the creation story
Joana swallowed by the whale
The Noah’s ark story
Joshua stopping the sun from setting during war

And YOU said they are based in logic. I believe your exact words were; “If you would like to talk about the scientific/engineering details on any of the stories, we can do that”

You almost immediately said Jonahs fish story was a miracle; which means no engineering/scientific explanation here;

With the creation story you tried to say the Earth existed before the Sun which goes against science; so no scientific engineering explanation here,

With Noah’s Ark, after a couple of pages of holding your feet to the fire, your exact words were “I don't feel comfortable to talk about things that I don't know and you don't know either. It is meaningless. So I will stop on this Ark structure issue. It is not a logic issue, it is an engineering issue” In other words; no scientific/engineering explanation here,

Now with Joshua’s extended day, you claim this 5th dimension that would make it possible. After holding your feet to the fire on that one, you admit you know little about the 5th dimension, but you know of somebody else who does! In other words, you provided no scientific/explanation here either.

No my friend; you've defended nothing

Ken

Your problem is still the very first one: you do not know how logic works. I guess you have never take logic 101.

I did not say everything in the Bible is scientifically true. I say 99% of the Bible is LOGICALLY true.

Please do not mix these two AGAIN (how many times I have to repeat that?)

 

[Ken-1122]

Your problem is still the very first one: you do not know how logic works. I guess you have never take logic 101.

Insulting me does not make your case

I did not say everything in the Bible is scientifically true.

I never claimed you did! But you did claim those 4 stories of the Bible I mentioned were

I say 99% of the Bible is LOGICALLY true.

I listed 4 stories of the bible which I said could only be believed via faith and you volunteered to discuss the scientific/engineering possibility of these events happening logically. Weather these events are part of the 99% or the 1% that you speak of doesn't matter; so quit trying to change the subject.

Please do not mix these two AGAIN (how many times I have to repeat that?)

You will continue to repeat that until you tire of accusing me of saying things I did not say.

Ken

 

[Spikey4672]

sunnyokanagan.com/joshua/

This person claims that the Sun moved around the Earth, thus keeping it in the same spot for the people on Earth's perspective. Very detailed and somewhat hard to understand

 

[Ken-1122]

sunnyokanagan.com/joshua/

This person claims that the Sun moved around the Earth, thus keeping it in the same spot for the people on Earth's perspective. Very detailed and somewhat hard to understand

This goes against science.

Ken

 

[juvenissun]

Insulting me does not make your case


I never claimed you did! But you did claim those 4 stories of the Bible I mentioned were

I listed 4 stories of the bible which I said could only be believed via faith and you volunteered to discuss the scientific/engineering possibility of these events happening logically. Weather these events are part of the 99% or the 1% that you speak of doesn't matter; so quit trying to change the subject.

You will continue to repeat that until you tire of accusing me of saying things I did not say.

Ken

Yes I did. Except the Jonah's fish, which I don't know what to say (yet) (because biology is my worst), I did discuss the scientific meaning of the rest. At least I won't dismiss them as fictions or metaphors. Instead, I am very serious about their scientific implications.

Again, the conclusion about those four issues are: they are all logic, but are scientifically challenging.

So, what's wrong with that?

 

[juvenissun]

This goes against science.

Ken

Here is your problem. LEARN IT !!

How much do you know about science? How much do you know about the nature of science? "go against science", science of what time?

If you really want to say that, you should say: This goes against what I know about science.

 

[Ken-1122]

Here is your problem. LEARN IT !!

I did learn it! If I didn't learn it I wouldn't be able to tell him that the Earth rotates around the Sun rather than the other way around.

How much do you know about science?

If you still believe the Sun rotates around the Earth, I know a whole lot more about Astronomy than you do.

How much do you know about the nature of science? "go against science", science of what time?

It goes against what we know about science today.

If you really want to say that, you should say: This goes against what I know about science.

No it goes against what mankind knows about science.

Ken

 

[Ken-1122]

Yes I did. Except the Jonah's fish, which I don't know what to say (yet) (because biology is my worst),

I disagree! Your replies show that your ignorance of astrology and ship building overshadows your ignorance of biology.

I did discuss the scientific meaning of the rest. At least I won't dismiss them as fictions or metaphors. Instead, I am very serious about their scientific implications.

Again, the conclusion about those four issues are: they are all logic, but are scientifically challenging.

So, what's wrong with that?

You gave a scientific explanation about Noah’s Ark? Then why is it on post $148 you said ”you don’t feel comfortable discussing things you don’t know about?” Do you call that a scientific explanation?

You provided a scientific explanation about Joshua’s long day? Then why is it on post #207 you said the theory of the 5th dimension can explain it, but on post #209 you said you refuse to discuss this 5th dimension because it would make you feel “stupid??? You call that a scientific eplanation? Go back and read what you wrote! You’ve explained nothing.

Ken

 

[juvenissun]

I did learn it! If I didn't learn it I wouldn't be able to tell him that the Earth rotates around the Sun rather than the other way around.
If you still believe the Sun rotates around the Earth, I know a whole lot more about Astronomy than you do.

It goes against what we know about science today.

No it goes against what mankind knows about science.

Ken

Learn this: any scientific knowledge is destined to be wrong in the future. It applies to ALL and everything we know now.

So, don't ever say something is wrong according to science. I studied science longer than 4 decades. I learned and not to say that on everything I think I know.

The earth rotate around sun is ONE of the observations. There ARE other ways to look at it.

 

[juvenissun]

You gave a scientific explanation about Noah’s Ark? Then why is it on post $148 you said ”you don’t feel comfortable discussing things you don’t know about?” Do you call that a scientific explanation?

You provided a scientific explanation about Joshua’s long day? Then why is it on post #207 you said the theory of the 5th dimension can explain it, but on post #209 you said you refuse to discuss this 5th dimension because it would make you feel “stupid??? You call that a scientific eplanation? Go back and read what you wrote! You’ve explained nothing.

Ken

Yes, my limited explanations ARE scientific in nature. I don't know everything. But I can talk about everything from the view of science. If I do that, then I AM talking about science.

When I can't do that, I simply say I can't. The example is the Jonah's fish. There is nothing to be shame about it. I don't want continue to rambling about the structure of the Ark. Not because I can not, but because I don't want to. I think what has been said is enough. If you are understanding, you should stop too. It you were an engineer, then you will see that I won't let you go away without answering a few of my questions.

 

[1Feather]

Hollywood and other sources have helped to anthropomorphize the satan of the Christian Bible.

However, in truth Satan, like God, is a spirit. And as a spirit he can, just like God, enter the mind of the individual.

Therefore, when you ask how we can know Satan is real, if you read scripture you'll see that Satan is the polar opposite of God.
You know the Yin Yang symbol?

Satan would be the dark. God would be the white.

Polarity. The opposite, the antithesis, the antipodal or contrary aspect of the righteous image and likeness that is God. Satan is diametrically opposed to all that God is. (Up/down, front/back. The spirit of opposites then can be seen to be omnipresent as well. Though the Satan itself, that spirit, is opposed or the adversary aligned toward those made in the image and likeness of God; humans.)

When teachings instruct goodness, Satan aspires the student to seek badness. Like that.

please don't use the quote button to quote this entire text as it is long and just uses up the page. instead please refer to this post as the OP(original post).

as the title suggests, I would like to ask the question of why you think that god=good and the devil=bad and the bible=truth.

now from what I think I know about the devil is that he is/was a fallen angel (I don't know whether this holds true in the Christian religion) who is trying to "overrule" god (still I don't know if this is true in Christianity).



from the bible
put simply the story of god and the devil in genesis is this...
god created the universe. god created man/woman with free will. god put man/woman in a garden. god put a lovely looking tree bam smack in da' centre of the garden that man/woman were NOT meant to eat from.
even from the last paragraph you can see that something fishy is going on here... this is almost exactly like leaving two kids in a room with a knife in the centre and expecting them not to touch it...
a snake just goes into the garden and tells eve to eat from the tree, and she did. looking back over the start of the bible I can see no mention of the "devil" anywhere here but please correct me if I'm wrong. because it does not say it was the devil in disguise it would not be irrational to assume that it could be god in disguise. god comes "down" from wherever and starts looking for the 2 (naked!) people. god punishes man/woman for following orders that he knew they were going to take without question and made the choice not help out the ones he "infinity loved". and don't say it would have interfered with free-will, because it would not if he still let them have a choice of whether to follow his orders or not.
god kicks out man/woman. god gets flaming sword to defend the tree of life.

from this we can assume the following...
1) god created universe
2) god make stupid people
3) a snake made them smart
4) god is very trigger happy when it comes to punishment
5) [insert atheist joke about god looking for naked people here]

all that being said how do we know that the bible is accurate? I mean it's all well and good doing the "bible wheel" (the bible was written by god-->it says it was written by god in the bible-->god is omnipotent-->see step 1) but using that basicly means that I can say "I am omnipotent" and using that wheel I am unfalsifiable.
another way you could say that you know that the bible is correct is because lots of people think it is. now lots of kids (younger than myself I might add) that Santa and the tooth fairy are both real. and it even goes to common mis-conception, I mean how many times has someone said "I'm just going to hoover the house." this makes no sense because that would mean that the brand "hoover" = vacuum cleaner (and it doesn't BTW ). you also have to consider that for a statement to make sense one (of the potentially many) opposites MUST be true, for example: 1+1=2 one opposite 1-1=/2 (=/ means not equal to) makes sense however the only opposite to "many people think it's true so it's true" is "not many people think it's true so it's false" and that.... just doesn't make ANY sense
another way you could say it's correct is that "you feel it when you pray". now, have you ever considered that humans possess the ability to control what we are feeling to a certain extent? source youtube /watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=gPBzanM7wU0#t=134 skip to 2:15 if your browser does not do it for you (please remove the space from the web address my post count is <50 so the spam bot filter won't let me post links or pictures or PMs)
also you must know that text does get re-written and changed over time (the original scripts can't last forever right? (well... unless they were carved into diamond.... you know... just so the god can get his word across unlike those "fake religions") so it would not be unreasonable to think that (from he amount of times the devil appears in the bible) someone over the years wrote a few words wrong that lead to other people to misinterpret it and maybe get the completely wrong message.

so all that being said how can you be sure that what you are following is correct and (I think more importantly) are you receiving the original message? or are you just believing what you are hearing because that's what everyone else does and you accept their judgement with seeing if it makes sense to you?


PS: I am 14 years old so i probably have missed A LOT out of my argument. I would just like to see you peoples response to it also I would like to note that I am currently in the possess of reading the bible and I've got up to the end on genesis at the moment

 

[Archaeopteryx]

Hollywood and other sources have helped to anthropomorphize the satan of the Christian Bible.

However, in truth Satan, like God, is a spirit. And as a spirit he can, just like God, enter the mind of the individual.

Therefore, when you ask how we can know Satan is real, if you read scripture you'll see that Satan is the polar opposite of God.
You know the Yin Yang symbol?

Satan would be the dark. God would be the white.

Polarity. The opposite, the antithesis, the antipodal or contrary aspect of the righteous image and likeness that is God. Satan is diametrically opposed to all that God is. (Up/down, front/back. The spirit of opposites then can be seen to be omnipresent as well. Though the Satan itself, that spirit, is opposed or the adversary aligned toward those made in the image and likeness of God; humans.)

When teachings instruct goodness, Satan aspires the student to seek badness. Like that.

Wouldn't that make Satan the equal of God? And therefore a God himself?

 

[Ken-1122]

Learn this: any scientific knowledge is destined to be wrong in the future. It applies to ALL and everything we know now.

So the theory of Gravity, Evolution, and Relativity are destined to change? How do you know this? Just because some things have changed in the past doesn’t mean everything is going to change in the future.

So, don't ever say something is wrong according to science. I studied science longer than 4 decades. I learned and not to say that on everything I think I know.

I ain’t buying it! If you studied science for 4 decades, you would know better than to claim the Sun rotates around the Earth.

Ken

 

[Ken-1122]

Yes, my limited explanations ARE scientific in nature. I don't know everything. But I can talk about everything from the view of science. If I do that, then I AM talking about science.

To say you don’t want to discuss something because it will make you feel stupid is not scientific in nature.

When I can't do that, I simply say I can't. The example is the Jonah's fish. There is nothing to be shame about it.

You should have said that about the other explanations as well. There is nothing wrong with admitting you don’t have all the answers

I don't want continue to rambling about the structure of the Ark. Not because I can not, but because I don't want to.

You don’t want to because you don’t have any answers. Again; there is nothing wrong with admitting you don’t have all the answers.

Ken

 

[juvenissun]

So the theory of Gravity, Evolution, and Relativity are destined to change? How do you know this? Just because some things have changed in the past doesn’t mean everything is going to change in the future.

I ain’t buying it! If you studied science for 4 decades, you would know better than to claim the Sun rotates around the Earth.

Ken

Yes, the understanding of gravity, relativity, planet-star-galaxy, all changed, and are changed dramatically in recent decades.

I am a little tired of you. You do not know much science and you are not humble on what you know. I don't like to talk to people with such attitude. If I know someone who knows something more than I do, I will ask, instead of giving comment.

I am still talking here because I know you do not know much science. Otherwise, I would leave the thread a much earlier time.

 

[juvenissun]

To say you don’t want to discuss something because it will make you feel stupid is not scientific in nature.

You should have said that about the other explanations as well. There is nothing wrong with admitting you don’t have all the answers

You don’t want to because you don’t have any answers. Again; there is nothing wrong with admitting you don’t have all the answers.

Ken

If you said these again, then bye bye.

 

[Ken-1122]

Yes, the understanding of gravity, relativity, planet-star-galaxy, all changed, and are changed dramatically in recent decades.

I am a little tired of you. You do not know much science and you are not humble on what you know. I don't like to talk to people with such attitude. If I know someone who knows something more than I do, I will ask, instead of giving comment.

I am still talking here because I know you do not know much science. Otherwise, I would leave the thread a much earlier time.

So you are claiming the Sun rotates around the Earth, and the Earth existed before the sun and you say I don't know much about science? I may not be an expert but unless you are being dishonest in what you claim to be true just so you don't have to admit when you are wrong, I know a whole lot more about science than you do.

If you said these again, then bye bye.

Those were your words I was repeating. Look if you are looking for an excuse to run away so you don't have to answer the questions, then go! Other wise quit trying to change the subject and provide scientific explanations like you said you would do.
Ken

 

[juvenissun]

So you are claiming the Sun rotates around the Earth, and the Earth existed before the sun and you say I don't know much about science? I may not be an expert but unless you are being dishonest in what you claim to be true just so you don't have to admit when you are wrong, I know a whole lot more about science than you do.

Those were your words I was repeating. Look if you are looking for an excuse to run away so you don't have to answer the questions, then go! Other wise quit trying to change the subject and provide scientific explanations like you said you would do.
Ken

All right. You do. (what is the point for me to waste my time on you? )