How can you avoid becoming zealous or fundamental in your views?

OliverC said:

hahaha! Well I think you have understood or at least answered my question. It seems that I have a view that Christianity is much more complicated and interwoven. You and others have explained it as being much more simple and practical.

Contrary to your story, I have rebelled from Christianity since I was probably about 11 years old. My school made it into a boring ritual and something I decided to be avoided, mocked and disliked. For years I have considered Christianity, or Church ritual, as a way to control weak minds or an institutional system to blindly fit into rather than a blessing. It is hard for me to back track 30+ years and say I was wrong to see Christianity so negatively, but from the answers here I am starting to think maybe I was....

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you are the norm, so no worries...I am a most unusual person to say the least.

It is easy to get caught up in the debates about "contradictions in the bible" or "Did Jesus really exist", and I want to avoid that and keep my focus on God. I know God is Good and True, but what I miss is a relationship with Him that I feel comfortable in. One I can share safely with others who feel the same. I want to be proactive and humbly try to strive to make the world a good place with God's help.

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can I ask another question as per this paragraph? What brought you to Christ to start out with? As I said, for me, I needed the power to survive, my husband needed someone to follow, each of us has a different reason for coming to start out with, for our daughter, she saw the world around her and knew how much they needed Christ, that was enough for her. What is your reason?

To become a Christian implies a change to how I view myself and the world, which is why it matters and what I am trying to understand. It is why some people struggle so much with what may be simple in a Christian's eyes

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exactly...it is to have a different vision, without a doubt.

OliverC said:

Thank you for your kind reply, Bling. It is reasuring to hear that "Christians do not have to do stuff", as I touch on above, I seem to have drawn a conclusion that they must, and that would lead to fundamentalism.

I feel silly saying this, but what should I do next then? Just love and act as Jesus taught? Can I put my books and questions down and just get on with it as best as I can whilst being open to a relationship with God?

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I think a question might be, "What do you feel you'd LIKE to do for Jesus... and why?

OliverC said:

Hi Paul
You are right, I am afraid of Christianity and of letting go (for many reasons it seems).

If I understand your post correctly, I believe you are advocating surrender to God? I have tried to surrender my life to God by seeing everything as determined, what happened was that I became passive and that affected my productivity. Later I felt that I had betrayed myself by taking such an approach and have been looking to take more onwnership of my thoughts, words and actions, but not excluding God and His Will. So I am afraid to make a commitment to Christianity and I am here to try to work through my assumptions and doubts which I think are causing me to be afraid of commitment. If you wish to briefly reflect on your perspective of how you balance your choices as an individual over and with God's will I would be interested to read it.

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I can see how that would happen. On the surface, it seems to be one way or the other. But God is a personal God, and He calls us to personhood, not merely principle. On one level, we should balance things as best we can. But there is another level, the level of the spirit, which trumps the natural. When we are in harmony with it, the natural works its way out, "naturally".

When you give your life to Christ, you don't stop being a person. You don't stop having to live your life either. But now Christ is within you, and has become your real life. Now, you seek Him and His kingdom first, and all the rest falls into place (Mt 6.33).

As far as God's will, it doesn't come automatically. It has to be sought. We have to engage our whole soul in the process, or we won't get far. So while we are at rest in the spirit, there really is no room for passivity.

There's a lot here that speaks of the paradoxes of God. It can get complicated, and that's not the way to go. Enter the Kingdom as a child, as Jesus says. Surrender "just as I am", with what you know. Continue to live in good conscience, but in faith that God is working things out for you.

I think you were operating under misconceptions of what it means to surrender to God, and when those misconceptions brought bad fruit, you questioned the whole pursuit. That's a good thing too, as long as you continue to press on into a more accurate understanding of what's involved. Don't let the past stop you from moving forward. It's really worth it.

OliverC said:

Thank you for your kind reply, Bling. It is reasuring to hear that "Christians do not have to do stuff", as I touch on above, I seem to have drawn a conclusion that they must, and that would lead to fundamentalism.

I feel silly saying this, but what should I do next then? Just love and act as Jesus taught? Can I put my books and questions down and just get on with it as best as I can whilst being open to a relationship with God?

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I all starts with relationship...relationship starts with belief of the heart, a belief that compels you to know more and more and more about God.

OliverC said:

I could list some theological reasons, but in a nutshell it feels right to be open to God. Every time I push God aside or to the back of my mind I seem to struggle more with life. Life itself is the same of course whether I embrace or reject, but I don't like how I think and feel. I tend to become worried, sad and negative if I do not see a higher purpose.

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so you seek peace...and since God is the God of peace, you are on the right track...Being that you are seeking peace, you know when your focus is off God by the lack of peace in your life.

That being said, next question (I like questions in case you hadn't figured that out yet) when, that is to say, specifically, do you have the most peace when it comes to your spiritual life? For example, do you have the most peace when you are reading scripture, praying, attending church, reading what others think, etc.

It isn't easy, my environment also doesn't cater to be Christian. No one else in my family is a practicing Christian and it is even considered "wrong" (wrong due to Church's behaviour rather than Christ's teaching)

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wow do I know the problems with church behavior, even right now, we are being blamed for things that we had nothing at all to do with, and it is out of control in church and community. In fact, I could tell you lots of horror stories about the behavior of people in the church. How did you not take on the same...issues as your family?

OliverC said:

If I undrstand your question correct, my answer is that I have decided not to get too hung up on afterlife or the theology, as that is what has been distracting me from living more fully. So I would say it is probably about reading them to learn how to drive well and the rest I trust should fall in place.


It's nice to hear your story, what changed in the last two years? I mean, what I can learn from that, please?

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A little over two years ago, my wife and I enrolled in a "Grace Only" group at our new church, The Vineyard. The textbook was "Destined to Reign" by Joseph Prince.

Now, I can't handle too much of that guy on TV, but his books are amazing. I kept reading and exclaiming, "Wow, look at this!" I had no idea some of that stuff was in the Bible.

Anyway, within a couple of months of beginning that class, I had a stroke that they told me 1/3 of the people who experience it die in the hospital, and the other two thirds are pretty messed up for life.

Well, the most amazing part of my fantastic journey through that mess was the total peace I felt all through it. I was about 75% sure I was going to die, but it didn't really matter much. I just told my wife that I would see her on the other side. She squeezed my hand, and said, "OK."

Obviously, I didn't die. And I even really saw someone (Jesus? I dunno.) sitting in the chair at the foot of my bed about two weeks into my hospital stay. No conversation. He just sat with me. And all I have left over from that time is a persistent dizziness that is really more aggravating than anything serious. I still drive. Still ride my motorcycle. I no longer fly, and I do avoid ladders, but that's about it.

Another thing is that I have always been very conscious of money. No longer. If I see a need, I just meet it if we have enough on hand. It's really freeing not to worry about much of anything anymore.

Of course, there's a little more to it all than just what I've mentioned, but that is about it in a nutshell. I simply quit trying to earn God's gift, and now finally just enjoy it.

OliverC said:

I think it is through reading and study that I feel the most peace. Which is partly why I asked my original questions, because I don't want to fall into a habit of thinking that being a Christian starts and ends with how well I know the scripture or other's written work. So in a way I want to go about my day knowing I am on the right path with God in my heart, without feeling the need to study or "do" anything extra ordinary (rituals, praying 3 times a day or so on, not that they are wrong, but they are distracting). In other words, I want to be fully functional and happy. Perhaps that is something many of us here can relate with?



I am still not comfortable to call myself a Christian, due to my family and environment and other doubts, but answers to that will come later. What I think I need now is to get over my past assumptions, which are inaccurate, and get on with God and see how that progresses. I trust in God that details such as a church to attend and my family environment will become more favourable in the future, if I can first adjust my inner relationship with Christianity.

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One good test is this........

"This (whatever) that I think I should be doing.......... did Jesus do it?"

If the answer is "No", then why would we assume that we have to do it? Do we think we are going to show Jesus how it really SHOULD be done?

OliverC said:

I think it is through reading and study that I feel the most peace. Which is partly why I asked my original questions, because I don't want to fall into a habit of thinking that being a Christian starts and ends with how well I know the scripture or other's written work. So in a way I want to go about my day knowing I am on the right path with God in my heart, without feeling the need to study or "do" anything extra ordinary (rituals, praying 3 times a day or so on, not that they are wrong, but they are distracting). In other words, I want to be fully functional and happy. Perhaps that is something many of us here can relate with?

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let's go back to the "love affair" idea of relationship with God. When you are in love with someone, do you want to talk to them? (that is prayer) do you want to get to know them better? (that is study of the bible) Don't do it out of ritual or command, or any reason other than to be in the presence of the living God and to know Him better.

I am still not comfortable to call myself a Christian, due to my family and environment, but that will come later. What I think I need now is to get over my past assumptions, which are inaccurate, and get on with God and see how that progresses. I trust in God that details such as a church to attend and my family environment will become more favourable in the future, if I can first adjust my inner relationship with Christianity.

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I would say yes...but having said that, your family situation could get worse before they see the Christ change in you.

for me, my family saw the Christ change and came (sort of, claimed but didn't act) but some freaky things happened when it comes to Satan and his anger at me breaking a stronghold he had over our family for at least 2 generations, maybe more.

One mis conception at lot of people have, is that when they come to Christ and yield it all to Him, life suddenly becomes a bed of roses. But don't forget that roses have thorns, it is you that changes, not necessarily your situations.

I think it helps to recall this verse from Yeshua's ministry.

John 6:44 No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him. And I will raise him up on the last day.




Nothing happens without the Father's will causing it to be. As a new creature, one who is saved, you have the resonating spirit of the source of all that exists guiding you through the trials and travails of this world.

Let that put into perspective those circumstances and even those people you come into contact with.



You are a reflection, made in the image and likeness, of the source of all that exists. Even those people who upset you. Even those circumstances that confuse you or make you mad, or doubt.

It all transpires, everything that happens, and all people that exist, are here, be they Christian or otherwise, by God's will.

You now carry within you that ever present communication of the Holy Spirit so as to navigate the waters from that point of view. Knowing that everything that happens is God giving you an opportunity to minister his truth from that perspective of Gnosis, knowledge, of God's truth inside you.
It's all happening first an foremost by God's design. You don't need to be a zealot or a fundamentalist because that is pride and ego that is the illusion that arrives in us. When we think we have to do God's work for him and make people into our image and likeness.

When the plan is, we take the image and likeness of God with us and demonstrate to the doubters, the mockers, the unbelievers, that while they do not believe as we do, that we exist as we are in the spirit of God we are living proof they are wrong.


They won't accept that when you tell them outright.


That you are there and acting as the spirit within directs you to. As a new creature redeemed and living in the spirit, not in that flesh of your former self and predisposed to thinking, as others do who have not come to the truth of Christ, that this world is all there is and all that matters is getting yours now.
Those that God calls and those who heed that call shall come. The rest are as he wills too. You are here to navigate what is, using the tools God gives, and in doing so you learn that God is.

Everything that exists is of God. There's nothing to prove.

OliverC said:

Hello
How does one avoid becoming over zealous and moving towards a more fundamental mind set once someone takes the step to be a Christian?

I ask as I want to keep my relationship with God as positive, joyful and liberal and have doubts that Christianity will be right for me for various reasons.

For example;
Has it been so for you or others that the more you study and learn the more tight and 'retricted' your beliefs and behaviour have had to become in line with the teaching you follow?

Have you had to take a step back to perserve what feels right to you in your heat despite what other Christians may see as being scriptual law and requiring obedience?

Is it possible to develop and remain light and joyful with your relationship with God yet be committed?

On a theological level I suppose I am asking where the line between adhering to dogma and choice may lie and how to keep onself in pespective in the modern business world.

* I know words like zealous, conservative and fundamentalism mean different things to different people, but I hope to communicate a sense where a person finds they are obliged to take a fundamental mind set against their gut feeling due to an interperation of the Bible as law.

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OliverC said:

Is there action to take or have I read that into it? Thanks!

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That's a very good question. You keep going right up to the precipice of paradox, to the edge of what the mind can realize on its own. Probably the best I can tell you is to "prepare the way of the Lord", as the Baptist said. Do what you can to get aligned with God, ready for God. Consider James 4, and see if anything there pertains. But in your doing, know that ultimately "it is God working within you, to will and to do His good pleasure", and that the essence of the relationship is surrender and communion. You have to seek Him, but the goal is not to work in the flesh, but to enter His rest in the spirit (Mt 11.2. As Hebrews 4 says, we "labor to enter His rest".

That may sound confusing, but essentially, come as a child. Place childlike trust in Father. Keep doing the best you can, but do it in faith that He will guide and protect. His rest is not passive.

Going back to your original question. I believe the Lord's commands in the golden rule (Matthew 7:1-12) & the 2 great commands (Matthew 22:36-40) keep me as accountable as anyone else. I believe that salvation by grace ( Ephesians 2:8-10) is a promise & commitment I must have unto death. I believe the Lord will give all people a chance by examining their conscience ( Romans 2 esp verses 11-16). I believe the Lord lays out his standard of judgement in John 5:22-29 & verse 29 sums it up.

OliverC said:

Thank you for your kind reply, Bling. It is reasuring to hear that "Christians do not have to do stuff", as I touch on above, I seem to have drawn a conclusion that they must, and that would lead to fundamentalism.

I feel silly saying this, but what should I do next then? Just love and act as Jesus taught? Can I put my books and questions down and just get on with it as best as I can whilst being open to a relationship with God?

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First, have you come to God truly humbly desiring God’s forgiveness for past actions that have hurt or taken advantage of others (sin)?

Did you feel the burden of sin being lifted from your body washed away (immersion water baptism can help you sense physically this experience)?

If you feel the relief of this huge burden do you have gratitude for what god has done for you?

What do you now want to do?

You might want to start small (washing the dishes for your wife unexpectedly out or gratitude to God). Your Love can grow rapidly with use.

Hello
How does one avoid becoming over zealous and moving towards a more fundamental mind set once someone takes the step to be a Christian?

I ask as I want to keep my relationship with God as positive, joyful and liberal and have doubts that Christianity will be right for me for various reasons.

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I am not clear on why being "fundamental" or "over-zealous" are bad things. From what you've written here it seems you think these things are somehow antithetical to a positive, joyful and liberal Christian life. Why is that? From what I understand from Scripture, the greatest joy a follower of Christ can have comes as a result of a radical pursuit of him. A half-hearted or at arms' length approach to fellowship with God is repugnant to Him.

Rev 3:15 I know your works, that you are neither cold nor hot. I would that you were cold or hot.
Rev 3:16 So because you are lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will vomit you out of My mouth.

For example;
Has it been so for you or others that the more you study and learn the more tight and 'retricted' your beliefs and behaviour have had to become in line with the teaching you follow?

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Truth by its very nature is exclusivistic and restrictive. A totally red ball cannot also be green, or blue, or black at the same time; 2+2 does not equal 5, or 9, or any number other than 4; a bachelor cannot be married; a circle has no right angles. And so on. Truth excludes and confines. Consequently, the more a believer understands of God's truth the more they will be intolerant of falsehood - especially falsehood corrupting God's truth. A follower of Christ who knows God's truth well will have a necessarily narrower field of belief about theology and doctrine than they had when they were first saved. This isn't a bad thing; it is the natural consequence of knowing the truth.

Have you had to take a step back to perserve what feels right to you in your heat despite what other Christians may see as being scriptual law and requiring obedience?

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God will run right up against "what feels right to you." It is doing what feels right that often leads people into the sin that separates them from their holy Maker. Following Christ means doing as he has commanded over and above what you might feel inclined to do.

Is it possible to develop and remain light and joyful with your relationship with God yet be committed?

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The two things - being light and joyful and being committed in your relationship with God - are not mutually exclusive. In fact, the latter produces the former.

On a theological level I suppose I am asking where the line between adhering to dogma and choice may lie and how to keep onself in pespective in the modern business world.

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There is no Christianity without doctrine and theology. Dogma, though, has a blind aspect to it that is not commanded, or even urged, by the Bible.

* I know words like zealous, conservative and fundamentalism mean different things to different people, but I hope to communicate a sense where a person finds they are obliged to take a fundamental mind set against their gut feeling due to an interperation of the Bible as law.

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THe "law of God" is not as open to interpretation as you seem to think. The better one knows the Bible the less room for broad interpretation of Scripture one realizes that there is. THe Bible qualifies and confines itself, limiting how it may be interpreted.

"Gut feelings" have nothing at all to do with walking with God. God calls all who will fellowship with Him to loving obedience to His will and way. Where one's "gut" diverges from God's truth and way (as declared in the Bible), it must be ignored.

Selah.