How can unregenerate people worship God?

[FreeGrace2]

Calvinists have made the claim that unregenerate people hate God, and want nothing to do with Him.

They further claim that unless and until God regenerates them, which allows them to believe the gospel, they simply can't believe, nor love God.

Yet, Scripture provides two examples of unregenerate unbelievers who worshiped God.

Example #1 -

Acts 10:1
Now there was a man at Caesarea named Cornelius, a centurion of what was called the Italian cohort,

Acts 10:2
a devout man and one who feared God with all his household, and gave many ◙ alms to the Jewish people and prayed to God continually.
Acts 10:3
About the ninth hour of the day he clearly saw in a vision an angel of God who had just come in and said to him, “Cornelius!”
Acts 10:4
And fixing his gaze on him and being much alarmed, he said, “What is it, Lord?” And he said to him, “Your prayers and alms have ascended as a memorial before God.

Here we have a Greek who had reverence for God, praying to Him continually.

Yet we know from Acts 11:14 that he wasn't saved until Peter preached to him.

Example #2 -

Acts 16:14
A woman named Lydia, from the city of Thyatira, a seller of purple fabrics, a worshiper of God, was listening; and the Lord opened her heart to respond to the things spoken by Paul.

It is clear that she believed the gospel that Paul preached. Yet we read that she was already a "worshiper of God".

So, 2 examples of people who reverenced and worshiped God prior to hearing the gospel and believing it.

How can this be since Calvinists claim that unbelievers (meaning to them those for whom Christ didn't die) hate God?

 

[cygnusx1]

Unregenerate people worship God for centuries , as did the JEWS .

they lift their arms up in praise and simply worship , anyone can perform a religious ritual.

Yet Jesus said those who worship must worship in Spirit and in Truth ....

“But the hour is coming, and now is, when the true worshipers shall worship the Father in spirit and truth, for the Father seeks such to worship Him (John 4:23).

​

 

[FreeGrace2]

Unregenerate people worship God for centuries , as did the JEWS .

That is all well and good. But doesn't excuse the Calvinist claim that all unregenerates HATE God. Maybe the OP wasn't read very thoroughly.

they lift their arms up in praise and simply worship , anyone can perform a religious ritual.

Again, a thorough read of the OP would inform potential posters of the FACT that the Bible gives 2 examples of unregenerate people who worshiped GOD Himself. Not just raised their arms, etc.

Yet Jesus said those who worship must worship in Spirit and in Truth ….

Still missing the OP.

Calvinists have said repreatedly on this forum that unless God regenerates the heart, unregenerates ALL hate God.

Yet the Bible tells us of two unregenerates who worshiped God.

And the Bible didn't say "worshiped a god". No. It says very clearly; worshiped GOD.

Please review the OP and explain, if there is an explanation.

 

[Hammster]

Calvinists have made the claim that unregenerate people hate God, and want nothing to do with Him.

They further claim that unless and until God regenerates them, which allows them to believe the gospel, they simply can't believe, nor love God.

Yet, Scripture provides two examples of unregenerate unbelievers who worshiped God.

Example #1 -

Acts 10:1
Now there was a man at Caesarea named Cornelius, a centurion of what was called the Italian cohort,

Acts 10:2
a devout man and one who feared God with all his household, and gave many ◙ alms to the Jewish people and prayed to God continually.
Acts 10:3
About the ninth hour of the day he clearly saw in a vision an angel of God who had just come in and said to him, “Cornelius!”
Acts 10:4
And fixing his gaze on him and being much alarmed, he said, “What is it, Lord?” And he said to him, “Your prayers and alms have ascended as a memorial before God.

Here we have a Greek who had reverence for God, praying to Him continually.

Yet we know from Acts 11:14 that he wasn't saved until Peter preached to him.

Example #2 -

Acts 16:14
A woman named Lydia, from the city of Thyatira, a seller of purple fabrics, a worshiper of God, was listening; and the Lord opened her heart to respond to the things spoken by Paul.

It is clear that she believed the gospel that Paul preached. Yet we read that she was already a "worshiper of God".

So, 2 examples of people who reverenced and worshiped God prior to hearing the gospel and believing it.

How can this be since Calvinists claim that unbelievers (meaning to them those for whom Christ didn't die) hate God?

Before we get too far, can you explain what Calvinists mean by "hate God"?

 

[cygnusx1]

Paul writing to Christians in Rome gives his God given understanding of mankind in general and the degenerate state of sinners :

Romans 1

[18] For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;
[19] Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them.
[20] For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:
[21] Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.
[22] Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools,
[23] And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things.
[24] Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonour their own bodies between themselves:
[25] Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen.
[26] For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature:
[27] And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet.
[28] And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient;
[29] Being filled with all unrighteousness, fornication, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, debate, deceit, malignity; whisperers,
[30] Backbiters, haters of God, despiteful, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents,
[31] Without understanding, covenantbreakers, without natural affection, implacable, unmerciful:
[32] Who knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them.

 

[Hammster]

I think what's often missed is that can be worshipped falsely. He can be treated just like any other god. So it's reasonable to expect that Lydia was worshipping the true God in the same manner that one might worship Baal. So Cyg is right in that to truly worship, it must be done in spirit and in truth. She didn't receive the truth until Christ opened her heart.

 

[hedrick]

I'm going to give you what I think is a Reformed answer. I don't have time to think carefully and give you a personal reaction.

I think the claim that unregenerate people hate God can be misleading. It doesn't mean that they all throw eggs at statues of Christ. It simply means that they reject the real God's demands on them. Sometimes they reject God visibly. Sometimes they worship a God of their own creation, which may to others look like actual worship of God.

This is similar to the claim that they can't do anything good. The Reformers had a concept "civil righteousness." Unredeemed people can do things that are good for those around them. It's just that their motives involve enough self-interest that they don't count before God.

 

[South Bound]

Calvinists have made the claim that unregenerate people hate God, and want nothing to do with Him.

They further claim that unless and until God regenerates them, which allows them to believe the gospel, they simply can't believe, nor love God.

Yet, Scripture provides two examples of unregenerate unbelievers who worshiped God.

Example #1 -

Acts 10:1
Now there was a man at Caesarea named Cornelius, a centurion of what was called the Italian cohort,

Acts 10:2
a devout man and one who feared God with all his household, and gave many ◙ alms to the Jewish people and prayed to God continually.
Acts 10:3
About the ninth hour of the day he clearly saw in a vision an angel of God who had just come in and said to him, “Cornelius!”
Acts 10:4
And fixing his gaze on him and being much alarmed, he said, “What is it, Lord?” And he said to him, “Your prayers and alms have ascended as a memorial before God.

Here we have a Greek who had reverence for God, praying to Him continually.

Yet we know from Acts 11:14 that he wasn't saved until Peter preached to him.

Example #2 -

Acts 16:14
A woman named Lydia, from the city of Thyatira, a seller of purple fabrics, a worshiper of God, was listening; and the Lord opened her heart to respond to the things spoken by Paul.

It is clear that she believed the gospel that Paul preached. Yet we read that she was already a "worshiper of God".

So, 2 examples of people who reverenced and worshiped God prior to hearing the gospel and believing it.

How can this be since Calvinists claim that unbelievers (meaning to them those for whom Christ didn't die) hate God?

First of all, I disagree with your extrapolation of those two but I won't get into that here, because it sounds like you've already got your mind made up.

Instead, I have two questions for you:

1. Who are the "they" in John 15:25?

2. What is your take on John 3:19-20?

You'll have to ask the Calvinists on this forum who keep saying it.

How can you say we're wrong to believe something if you don't even know what it is we believe?

Yet, I've given 2 examples of unregenerate people who worshiped God. Capital G.

No, you gave two examples of people you claimed were unregenerate, even though the text you quoted indicates they're not.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Before we get too far, can you explain what Calvinists mean by "hate God"?

You'll have to ask the Calvinists on this forum who keep saying it. I take it at face value. Yet, I've given 2 examples of unregenerate people who worshiped God. Capital G.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Paul writing to Christians in Rome gives his God given understanding of mankind in general and the degenerate state of sinners :

Romans 1

[18] For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;
[19] Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them.
[20] For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:
[21] Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.
[22] Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools,
[23] And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things.
[24] Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonour their own bodies between themselves:
[25] Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen.
[26] For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature:
[27] And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet.
[28] And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient;
[29] Being filled with all unrighteousness, fornication, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, debate, deceit, malignity; whisperers,
[30] Backbiters, haters of God, despiteful, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents,
[31] Without understanding, covenantbreakers, without natural affection, implacable, unmerciful:
[32] Who knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them.

Can you explain how the unregenerate still worship God, according to the Bible? That's the question in the OP.

 

[FreeGrace2]

I think what's often missed is that can be worshipped falsely. He can be treated just like any other god.

A side-stepping dodge. The Bible is clear about who Lydia and Cornelius worshiped. It was God. And God sent an angel to Cornelius to tell him that his prayers had been heard. So let's not go down this concocted rabbit trail, ok?

So it's reasonable to expect that Lydia was worshipping the true God in the same manner that one might worship Baal.

No, that's quite unreasonable. It is way more reasonable, and rational, to believe that she believed the revelation that God existed (Rom 1:19-20) and that she was doing what God created her to do: seek Him (Acts 17:26-27).

So Cyg is right in that to truly worship, it must be done in spirit and in truth. She didn't receive the truth until Christ opened her heart.

Of course it is. I've never argued otherwise. The point is that as an unregenerate person, she and Cornelius worshiped God, contrary to what a number of Calvinists have claimed on this forum about the unregenerate.

And because she acknowledged the existence of God, and was seeking Him, He let her find Him. 2 Chron 15:2 is the principle.

 

[FreeGrace2]

I'm going to give you what I think is a Reformed answer. I don't have time to think carefully and give you a personal reaction.

Thank you for your (careless ) answer.

I think the claim that unregenerate people hate God can be misleading. It doesn't mean that they all throw eggs at statues of Christ. It simply means that they reject the real God's demands on them. Sometimes they reject God visibly. Sometimes they worship a God of their own creation, which may to others look like actual worship of God.

This misses the point. Lydia was unregenerate, and she worshiped God. The Bible doesn't qualify how so, but notes that she did. And a number of Calvinists have claimed that the unregenerate all hate God. I've proven otherwise.

 

[FreeGrace2]

First of all, I disagree with your extrapolation of those two but I won't get into that here, because it sounds like you've already got your mind made up.

First, I haven't extrapolated anything. I have pointed out what Scripture says, in contrast to what a number of Calvinists on this forum have said.

Instead, I have two questions for you:

1. Who are the "they" in John 15:25?

2. What is your take on John 3:19-20?

This is a rabbit trail. I'm not going down it. My question remains: how can an unregenerate person worship God?

How can you say we're wrong to believe something if you don't even know what it is we believe?

I'll repeat: a number of Calvinist on this forum have claimed that all unregenerates hate God. And I've proven otherwise from Scripture. My question stands.

No, you gave two examples of people you claimed were unregenerate, even though the text you quoted indicates they're not.

OK, it seems your view is that both Lydia and Cornelius were already regenerate, even though they had not yet believed the gospel. Can that be backed up with any Scripture? Your challenge is to prove that an unsaved and unbelieving person can be already regenerate for some time before they believe.

I look forward to your answer.

 

[Hammster]

A side-stepping dodge. The Bible is clear about who Lydia and Cornelius worshiped. It was God. And God sent an angel to Cornelius to tell him that his prayers had been heard. So let's not go down this concocted rabbit trail, ok?


No, that's quite unreasonable. It is way more reasonable, and rational, to believe that she believed the revelation that God existed (Rom 1:19-20) and that she was doing what God created her to do: seek Him (Acts 17:26-27).


Of course it is. I've never argued otherwise. The point is that as an unregenerate person, she and Cornelius worshiped God, contrary to what a number of Calvinists have claimed on this forum about the unregenerate.

And because she acknowledged the existence of God, and was seeking Him, He let her find Him. 2 Chron 15:2 is the principle.

Nothing you said refuted my view. Your whole argument is based on a big G.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Nothing you said refuted my view. Your whole argument is based on a big G.

In fact, my whole argument is based on what the Bible SAYS. Which your view cannot claim.

 

[Hammster]

In fact, my whole argument is based on what the Bible SAYS. Which your view cannot claim.

You should read the Canons of Dort. Lots of scripture.

 

[South Bound]

First, I haven't extrapolated anything. I have pointed out what Scripture says, in contrast to what a number of Calvinists on this forum have said.

Actually, what you did was to post a couple of verses and tell us what you believe they said, even though the text does not indicate what you claim they say. That's the very definition of "extrapolation".

This is a rabbit trail.

I don't see how, when it directly addresses the topic you brought up in the OP.

I look forward to your answer.

And I would love to answer you, but I don't think it's fair of you to demand that I answer your questions, while you refuse to answer mine.

However, I do have one more question that I believe could clear up a lot of confusion:

Do you know what the phrase ordo salutis means?

 

[hedrick]

Thank you for your (careless ) answer.


This misses the point. Lydia was unregenerate, and she worshiped God. The Bible doesn't qualify how so, but notes that she did. And a number of Calvinists have claimed that the unregenerate all hate God. I've proven otherwise.

I don't believe she was unregenerate. Others have pointed out that Cornelius was in a similar situation. He was a devout man who worshipped God and prayed, whose prayers and alms God approved. This certainly sounds regenerate to me.

 

[Hammster]

I don't believe she was unregenerate. Others have pointed out that Cornelius was in a similar situation. He was a devout man who worshipped God and prayed, whose prayers and alms God approved. This certainly sounds regenerate to me.

I'll admit that this is a possibility. The texts never specifically say when they were regenerated. That's one of the difficulties with narratives. You often get the what without the why.

 

[sdowney717]

I don't believe she was unregenerate. Others have pointed out that Cornelius was in a similar situation. He was a devout man who worshipped God and prayed, whose prayers and alms God approved. This certainly sounds regenerate to me.

Good point.
Regenerated people will respond to God.
Unregenerate people will not listen because they can not hear.

42 Jesus said to them, “If God were your Father, you would love Me, for I proceeded forth and came from God; nor have I come of Myself, but He sent Me. 43 Why do you not understand My speech? Because you are not able to listen to My word. 44 You are of your father the devil, and the desires of your father you want to do.

I John talks of those who are begotten of God. So then God is their father.
Unregenerated people have Satan as their father.
1 John 5

5 Whoever believes that Jesus is the Christ is born of God, and everyone who loves Him who begot also loves him who is begotten of Him. 2 By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God and keep His commandments. 3 For this is the love of God, that we keep His commandments.

Born of God == God is your Father.
Jesus tells us to pray, Our Father who is in Heaven.
God is not the Father of all men, although He is their creator.
That prayer is only for the children of God to pray.