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How can scientists possibly know ... ?? An open exploration thread

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Biblewriter

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But the fact of physical interbreeding is decisive. If two populations do not interbreed, there is no gene flow between them. Whether they are theoretically capable of interbreeding (and can even be made to do so in captivity) they are separate species in nature because they do not interbreed,

E.O. Wilson defines a biological species as "a population whose members are able to interbreed freely under natural conditions."

"Under natural conditions" is the important qualifier. Zookeepers have successfully crossed lions and tigers, but such specimens are confined to zoos and do not a species make. To consider lions and tigers a single species one needs to find them freely interbreeding in nature. Wilson notes that this was not the case even when both species had a much larger range with overlap between their ranges so that interbreeding in nature was not prevented by geographical separation as it is today.

He also goes into why it is unlikely that a lion and a tiger would mate under natural conditions.

I have no problem with this definition of species. But that is not what you have been alleging. If life forms do not mate when they meet in the wild, they are indeed different species, even if they can be artificially crossed. But the fact that two groups of living organisms are not physically able to reach each other, and therefore unable to exchange genes, does not make them different species. They are different species only if they do not exchange genetic material when able to do so. Now in the artificial case of the fruit flys, the supposed demonstration would have proved nothing unless the offspring continued to not mate after they had been fed identical food for the same number of generations. No thinking person could possibly believe that any significant change in the genetic structure of these two strains could have taken place in only eight generations. The fact that the change was forced by an environmental change (the food supply) is proof that it was not caused by mutations.
 
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gluadys

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I have no problem with this definition of species. But that is not what you have been alleging. If life forms do not mate when they meet in the wild, they are indeed different species, even if they can be artificially crossed.

Actually, that is precisely what I have been saying. Sorry if it was not entirely clear.

But the fact that two groups of living organisms are not physically able to reach each other, and therefore unable to exchange genes, does not make them different species. They are different species only if they do not exchange genetic material when able to do so.

Quite right. That is why Wilson referred not only to lions and tigers today (whose ranges in nature keep them separate) but also within the historic past when they were known to occupy overlapping ranges but still did not interbreed.

Now in the artificial case of the fruit flys, the supposed demonstration would have proved nothing unless the offspring continued to not mate after they had been fed identical food for the same number of generations.

That might just prove that they could re-adapt as the pepper moth did after pollution controls cleaned up the environment. You would still get a change in the frequency of alleles. Furthermore, you could get an adaptation to similar food without the re-introduction of interbreeding.

Nevertheless, it would be an interesting research project.

No thinking person could possibly believe that any significant change in the genetic structure of these two strains could have taken place in only eight generations.

Probably not, but this is where fact trumps theory. Whether you think it possible or not, when it happens, you have to admit it has happened and therefore is possible. Depending on circumstances, speciation can take place in a single generation and can easily occur in less than a dozen generations. It only takes one of what biologists call "inherent isolating mechanisms" i.e. something other that an external isolating cause, to separate populations and initiate speciation. This is the source of much sympatric speciation.

Don't be put off by the fact the fruit fly experiment was done in a lab. Very similar scenarios have been observed in nature. One example is the adaptation of a hawthorn fruit fly to feeding on apple trees in New England and on cherry trees in the state of Washington. In both cases, the migrant populations soon developed into separate species.

The fact that the change was forced by an environmental change (the food supply) is proof that it was not caused by mutations.

Whether or not there were mutations is actually irrelevant. The major factor here is natural selection. As each isolated group adapts to its particular food source, any trait that aids in digestion, detection of the food, or whatever, will be favored and the alleles that produce that trait will become more frequent in the population. Whether those alleles were newly introduced by mutation or already present makes no difference.

Also, mutations are constantly occurring in every population, and as long as there is no gene flow to carry them to other groups, they will be unique to the isolated group. These mutations need not have anything to do with the adaptation to the new food. They just have to uniquely identify this population and act as attractants within the population while discouraging potential mates from other groups.

So whether the adaptive changes were caused by mutations or whether mutations occurred simply because mutations happen regularly anyway, there is genetic change. Whether the genetic change contributed to the adaptation or related to other features does not matter as long as they act as intrinsic isolating forces when the groups are brought back together.
 
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shernren

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Now in the artificial case of the fruit flys, the supposed demonstration would have proved nothing unless the offspring continued to not mate after they had been fed identical food for the same number of generations. No thinking person could possibly believe that any significant change in the genetic structure of these two strains could have taken place in only eight generations. The fact that the change was forced by an environmental change (the food supply) is proof that it was not caused by mutations.

(emphasis added) Be careful what you wish for, buddy. ;)

You said in another thread that you are "a pure scientist by education and an applied scientist by profession". As such, you should have access to journals and journal websites of some kind. I found this article through JSTOR and you should be able to access it:

Dodd, D.M.B. (1989) "Reproductive isolation as a consequence of adaptive divergence in Drosophila pseudoobscura." Evolution 43:1308–1311.

In it, the authors quite clearly set out their experimental method: [Notes added.]
Starch-adapted populations were tested against maltose-adapted populations in every possible combination [1] to determine whether adaptation to the two new regimes could have induced the development of ethological isolation [2]. Multiple-choice tests were performed using mating chambers modeled on those described by Elens and Wattiaux (1964). All flies used in the mating-preference tests were reared for one generation on standard cornmeal-molasses-agar medium [3]. Virgin males and females were anesthetized with CO2, isolated from the opposite sex, and aged on standard medium [3] for 3-6 days. Twelve females from each of the populations to be tested were placed in the chamber. Twelve males from the two populations were then introduced as nearly simultaneously as possible. The flies were not anesthetized for this procedure [4]. The tests were perfored at room temperature (no higher than 25 degrees C), under bright (but not direct) lighting. The chambers were observed for 60-90 minutes.
[1] Namely, maltose males against either maltose females or starch females; starch males against either maltose females or starch females.

[2] "Ethological" meaning behavior; that is, if changes had occurred in behavior that precluded mating.

[3] Here's the punchline. The individuals for mating had actually been reared on the standard medium before the testing! Now, if you'd taken flies right from feeding on starch and flies right from feeding on maltose, you might have a case that it was their diet and not their genes that had affected them. Indeed, the authors themselves note this in a later section:
Significant behavioral isolation between starch-adapted and maltose-adapted populations was observed. The isolation was not a result of conditioning of the flies to the two media, since all tests were performed using flies that had been reared on a common medium and had experienced neither starch nor maltose. Nor was physical isolation alone responsible for the changes in mating behavior, since there was no evidence of behavioral isolation between any pair of the four starch-adapted populations nor between any pair of the four maltose-adapted populations. The ethological isolation was a pleiotropic by-product of the adaptation of the populations to the two media, confirming one of the basic tenets of the Modern Synthesis.
(emphasis added)

[4] Obviously not! Scientists can be so anal at times.

And of course, maltose vs. starch isn't the only way to do this kind of experiment.
Many experimental studies have looked for isolation as a correlated response to divergent selection. For example, Burnet and Connolly (1974) divided a founder stock of D. melanogaster into three groups. The first and second were selected for increased and decreased locomotor activity, respectively, and the third was an unselected control. After 112 generations, the selected groups manifest markedly divergent locomotor activity, in the selected directions, whereas the controls remained unchanged. When the lines selected for increased or decreased activity were tested for nonrandom mating, a 50% excess of homotypic mating was observed (i.e., the percentage of homotypic matings was about 75 instead of the random-mating expectation of 50). In a similar type of study using a Musca domestica (common house fly) model system, Hurd and Eisenberg (1975) selected for positive and negative geotaxis. After 16 generations of divergent selection under allopatric conditions, a response to selection in the appropriate direction was found in both the positive and negative selection lines. When positively and negatively selected lines were tested for prezygotic isolation, a 60% excess of homotypic mating was observed.

...

When we surveyed 14 studies from the literature in which divergent selection was applied to allopatric populations and then a measure was taken for the development of prezygotic isolation, we were surprised to find such a large excess of positive results (10 positive to 4 negative; part A of table 1). While allowing for the fact that negative results are less likely to be published, it still remains clear that it is not unusual to find prezygotic isolation as a fortuitous byproduct of adaptation to divergent selection regimes.
(from W.R. Rice and E.E. Hostert (1993). "Laboratory experiments on speciation: What have we learned in forty years?". Evolution 47: 1637-1653.)

In other words, "speciation happens all the time, even when we weren't actually looking for it!"
 
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juvenissun

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In other words, "speciation happens all the time, even when we weren't actually looking for it!"

If an alien arrived to the earth and examine the marriage statistics of human, the conclusion would be: human (kind) is composed of several "species" based on their skin color. This conclusion is supported by very very strong statistics, particularly, if the alien arrived before AD 1900.

Is the alien wrong?
 
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shernren

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If an alien arrived to the earth and examine the marriage statistics of human, the conclusion would be: human (kind) is composed of several "species" based on their skin color. This conclusion is supported by very very strong statistics, particularly, if the alien arrived before AD 1900.

Is the alien wrong?
Subspecies, not species. I'm no evolutionary biologist, but why not. Geographical separation, allopatric speciation, etc. Of course, note that genetic analysis indicates that all humanity diverged from a central spot in the first place, so that speciation would never quite be complete: humanity actually has fairly little genetic diversity.
 
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gluadys

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If an alien arrived to the earth and examine the marriage statistics of human, the conclusion would be: human (kind) is composed of several "species" based on their skin color. This conclusion is supported by very very strong statistics, particularly, if the alien arrived before AD 1900.

Is the alien wrong?

If the alien is using a biological species concept, then even before 1900 he will observe mating across the lines of skin colour. He will also observe the geographical concentration of certain types in certain localities and, where they overlapped, the social practices that discouraged official recognition of such matings in ritual marriage and lines of inheritance of property. But that such matings happened via slavery, concubinage, prostitution and rape and produced viable offspring also able to mate with the population of either parent would be evident. So biologically, the alien would be wrong to separate humans into more than one species, but not wrong to designate sub-species or varieties.

The key question is not how different species look, but how they behave in choosing mates and whether they have viable offspring when they do mate across common population dividers.
 
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juvenissun

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Dodd, D.M.B. (1989) "Reproductive isolation as a consequence of adaptive divergence in Drosophila pseudoobscura." Evolution 43:1308–1311.

Unfortunately, I think the experiment was only half way done. She should keep tracing the flies a few more generations by stop feeding them different food. I bet they will start to mix breed again. If they did, then the temporary feature is not real speciation.

Glaudys failed to address the statistic part of the feature. Given 100 pairs of white people and 100 pairs of black people, there will only be 1 or 2 pairs of mixed race marriage. If you look at them as white flies and black flies, you will conclude that you are seeing different species.

So, if we analize one white person and one black person, we will say that they are the same species even without the criteria of breeding habit. So the question is: what was changed on those flies in addition to the mating preference? I bet that we will find they have NO OTHER DIFFERENCES even on the scale of gene.
 
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Biblewriter

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You said in another thread that you are "a pure scientist by education and an applied scientist by profession". As such, you should have access to journals and journal websites of some kind. I found this article through JSTOR and you should be able to access it:

More specifically, I am formally educated as a biologist, as a chemist, and as a physicist. But in professional practice I was for many years a mechanical engineer on the field of ecology.

yes, I could find the results of many studies if i were sufficiently interested in the subject, but even here, this is only a sideline for me. My main interest is in the Holy Scriptures, which are able to make a person wise unto salvation.
 
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gluadys

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Unfortunately, I think the experiment was only half way done. She should keep tracing the flies a few more generations by stop feeding them different food. I bet they will start to mix breed again.

Not likely, if they have already speciated. It is not the food source per se that causes the speciation, but the adaptation to it. And even if you change to a standard food source, that only puts another layer of adaptation on top of the first one. It does not remove the first adaptation.


Glaudys failed to address the statistic part of the feature. Given 100 pairs of white people and 100 pairs of black people, there will only be 1 or 2 pairs of mixed race marriage. If you look at them as white flies and black flies, you will conclude that you are seeing different species.

You don't conclude that white and black flies are different species based on colour alone. If they freely interbreed when they meet, they are not different species. Same goes for people.

So, if we analize one white person and one black person, we will say that they are the same species even without the criteria of breeding habit.

We wouldn't do that. It is too small a sample. Evolution (and speciation) is a population-level event. You need to have a sample large enough for valid statistical conclusions.

So the question is: what was changed on those flies in addition to the mating preference? I bet that we will find they have NO OTHER DIFFERENCES even on the scale of gene.

You would have to look up the papers to see, but I am fairly confident that you would lose that bet.

It's a bit of a circle, you see. If you begin with an external isolating factor, like the separate food in separate cages, then the isolated populations accumulate different mutations. The mutations may have nothing to do with the isolation or with adaptation to a new environment. They may not even show up as visible differences. But when you analyze the genetics of the two populations after a few generations, you will find genetic differences for sure.

Will the genetic differences make them different species? Not necessarily. They will only become a new species if their new behaviour becomes an intrinsic isolating factor. i.e. something that keeps them apart sexually even when they are no longer in separate cages. Behaviour is often such a factor. Scent is often such a factor. Preference for a certain ecology is often such a factor.

When differences of these sorts have been created, then external factors like cages are no longer needed to keep the populations separate. They stay separate without artificial isolation. And the genetic differences keep piling up until they not only don't mate, they can't mate or at least can't successfully produce viable or fertile offspring.

Evolution that involves genetic change does not reverse itself. If a species re-adapts to a food used by its ancestors, it doesn't do so by wiping out the changes accumulated, but by adding new changes.

That, btw, is why a whale is a mammal, not a fish.
 
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shernren

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Unfortunately, I think the experiment was only half way done. She should keep tracing the flies a few more generations by stop feeding them different food. I bet they will start to mix breed again. If they did, then the temporary feature is not real speciation.

...

So the question is: what was changed on those flies in addition to the mating preference? I bet that we will find they have NO OTHER DIFFERENCES even on the scale of gene.

Well, the flies that actually mated had never seen maltose before in their short lives. Or starch. What could their parents possibly have passed down to them? Genes. So whatever caused those changes must have been on a genetic level.

It's not easy to actually elucidate genes. It's not like you can pop a few flies into the blender, wait a few hours (or even a few days) and get a genetic readout ala Gattaca. Sequencing is a long and difficult process. The entire human genome took many, many years - and that's just an initial map, we've just started to hunker down on what each gene (even the idea of "gene" itself is much less clear than it used to be) does. You can't gene-sequence every single fly that was involved in the mating experiment. (And there were a lot of them, by the way: something on the order of thousands of matings!)

But rearing them for one generation on common medium eliminates the possibility that it was something in the food ...
 
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holdon

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In other words, "speciation happens all the time, even when we weren't actually looking for it!"

So, why then are these 3 species still called D. pseudoobscura and D. melanogaster and Musca domestica????

You go at some lenght here citing some experiments, which do not by any means claim that a new species developed in either case. Nor do they make any claim as to alteration in the genetic material.

You however conclude: "speciation happens all the time". Not a very scientific conclusion.....
 
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shernren

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So, why then are these 3 species still called D. pseudoobscura and D. melanogaster and Musca domestica????

You go at some lenght here citing some experiments, which do not by any means claim that a new species developed in either case. Nor do they make any claim as to alteration in the genetic material.

You however conclude: "speciation happens all the time". Not a very scientific conclusion.....
... it still remains clear that it is not unusual to find prezygotic isolation as a fortuitous byproduct of adaptation to divergent selection regimes.

(from W.R. Rice and E.E. Hostert (1993). "Laboratory experiments on speciation: What have we learned in forty years?". Evolution 47: 1637-1653.)

Prezygotic isolation is one form of speciation. Of course, the speciation isn't actually complete in quite a few of the cases, since there is still some cross-breeding. However, what we don't complete, nature often does - hence, "speciation happens all the time".

Or rather, it is not unexpected for many populations to be undergoing the process of speciation at any one time. All you really need for speciation is sufficient genetic diversity in a population and sufficient diversifying pressure to drive them apart:

image


The third scenario is a good description of what happens when populations speciate.
 
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holdon

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... it still remains clear that it is not unusual to find prezygotic isolation as a fortuitous byproduct of adaptation to divergent selection regimes.

(from W.R. Rice and E.E. Hostert (1993). "Laboratory experiments on speciation: What have we learned in forty years?". Evolution 47: 1637-1653.)

Prezygotic isolation is one form of speciation. Of course, the speciation isn't actually complete in quite a few of the cases, since there is still some cross-breeding. However, what we don't complete, nature often does - hence, "speciation happens all the time".

Or rather, it is not unexpected for many populations to be undergoing the process of speciation at any one time. All you really need for speciation is sufficient genetic diversity in a population and sufficient diversifying pressure to drive them apart:

image


The third scenario is a good description of what happens when populations speciate.

Dream on...
 
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shernren

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Not until you can find a better explanation for the data.

Significant behavioral isolation between starch-adapted and maltose-adapted populations was observed. The isolation was not a result of conditioning of the flies to the two media, since all tests were performed using flies that had been reared on a common medium and had experienced neither starch nor maltose. Nor was physical isolation alone responsible for the changes in mating behavior, since there was no evidence of behavioral isolation between any pair of the four starch-adapted populations nor between any pair of the four maltose-adapted populations. The ethological isolation was a pleiotropic by-product of the adaptation of the populations to the two media, confirming one of the basic tenets of the Modern Synthesis.
 
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holdon

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Not until you can find a better explanation for the data.

Significant behavioral isolation between starch-adapted and maltose-adapted populations was observed. The isolation was not a result of conditioning of the flies to the two media, since all tests were performed using flies that had been reared on a common medium and had experienced neither starch nor maltose. Nor was physical isolation alone responsible for the changes in mating behavior, since there was no evidence of behavioral isolation between any pair of the four starch-adapted populations nor between any pair of the four maltose-adapted populations. The ethological isolation was a pleiotropic by-product of the adaptation of the populations to the two media, confirming one of the basic tenets of the Modern Synthesis.

It's similar to the Chihuahua and the Dane. Adapted breeds within their species. It's not speciation and if it were, somebody should propose a new species name such as D. starchy, and D. malty. Nobody has ventured to do that of course. Don't talk about a newly formed species till you really got one.
 
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juvenissun

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Well, the flies that actually mated had never seen maltose before in their short lives. Or starch. What could their parents possibly have passed down to them? Genes. So whatever caused those changes must have been on a genetic level.

It's not easy to actually elucidate genes. ...

I don't know if the change has to be on a genetic level or not. If it does, then it would provide many excellent opportunities for genetic researcher to study the fundamental (genetic) process of evolution. How hard could it be by just compare the DNA sequence on the two "species" of fly? Even college students would be able to do it. My guess is somebody has done it and found they are still one species genetically.

If the problem were not solved on a genetic level, then we should not think the hypothesis of speciation is really supported scientifically.
 
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elcapitan

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I don't know if the change has to be on a genetic level or not. If it does, then it would provide many excellent opportunities for genetic researcher to study the fundamental (genetic) process of evolution. How hard could it be by just compare the DNA sequence on the two "species" of fly?
Since you didn't seem to read all of shernren's post, I'll quote him
It's not easy to actually elucidate genes. It's not like you can pop a few flies into the blender, wait a few hours (or even a few days) and get a genetic readout ala Gattaca. Sequencing is a long and difficult process. The entire human genome took many, many years - and that's just an initial map, we've just started to hunker down on what each gene (even the idea of "gene" itself is much less clear than it used to be) does. You can't gene-sequence every single fly that was involved in the mating experiment. (And there were a lot of them, by the way: something on the order of thousands of matings!)

Even college students would be able to do it.
I'm currently an undergraduate attending a state university in Texas . Yes, I'm taking biology classes, and no, we aren't able to conduct complete DNA sequencing by ourselves. We college students were able to prepare DNA samples for sequencing, but the actual sequencing of that DNA is beyond our ability. Thus, at my university we send our samples to another lab for sequencing, which takes weeks (and that's just for some samples of mitochondrial DNA, not complete genomes).

Since you don't seem to understand the difficulty of DNA sequencing, perhaps you could benefit from at least reading the relevant wikipedia article.

My guess is somebody has done it and found they are still one species genetically.
Sounds like a conspiracy theory.
 
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juvenissun

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Since you don't seem to understand the difficulty of DNA sequencing, perhaps you could benefit from at least reading the relevant wikipedia article.


You will be surprised.

In my college, undergraduates DO have chance to do DNA sequencing. It would take them a whole semester. But they managed to get the work done (no guarantee on the quality, though)

That is why I told my daughter: do not go to state university.
 
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random_guy

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You will be surprised.

In my college, undergraduates DO have chance to do DNA sequencing. It would take them a whole semester. But they managed to get the work done (no guarantee on the quality, though)

That is why I told my daughter: do not go to state university.

I did a little DNA sequencing when I was in high school. We actually had classes where we did it. It's not that hard of a process to do, just very time consuming. Typically, you only do a very small sequence, as doing an entire genome would be far too expensive and costly. I doubt any undergrad ever sequences an entire genome.

That said, that's all set to change very soon. Scientists are predicting within the next 10 years, it may be as cheap as 1k to fully sequence an individual, due to new sequencing techniques and advances in computation. How this revolutionizes medicine, scientists still aren't sure.

One thing is certain, however, is that this new technology will continue to reinforce the evidence for evolution as we're able to sequence more organisms and build a more complete tree of life.

Also, there's nothing wrong with state universities. You get the education you put into it. Your daughter might go to Stanford, but if she has the same attitude about science as many Creationists, her science education would be no better than a junior high student (it'd probably be worst).
 
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shernren

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How hard could it be by just compare the DNA sequence on the two "species" of fly? Even college students would be able to do it. My guess is somebody has done it and found they are still one species genetically.

If the problem were not solved on a genetic level, then we should not think the hypothesis of speciation is really supported scientifically.

I agree with random_guy: I have friends here in first year who have actually sequenced DNA. Like, itty bitty chunks of it. The first sequencing attempts in 1990 cost US 75c per base. That be hefty.

But really, what other explanation is there other than genetic change? That's a downright simple question.
 
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