How can science "explain" miracles?

[CounselorForChrist]

At a previus forum I went to made up of MANY diffrent people (christians, atheists, wiccans, spirtualists...etc) they would try to explain miracles and things like the "light" you see in near death experiences.

My question is I hear about miracles every day, but it seems the non believers ignore them or makr make excuses on how the "miracle" happened. So how can they say miracles aren't real?

A good example I tell them is when I was a teen people came to me with prayer requests because my prayers always got answered. One day my dads friend came over and asked for prayer for a little girl who had cancer. She was days away from dying and there was no hope for her at all. I believe she was in a coma too. ANyways, I prayed for her that night and a few hours later in the morning the friend called crying because the girl was talking and feeling great. They scanned for cancer and didn't understand because there was no cancer anymore! Even the doctor said it had to be miriacle.

How can someone explain that scientificly and say it was not a miracle?!? I'd love to see a miracle where someone gets an arm cut off, but on the way to the hospital the arm reataches and is healed. I'd like to see science explain that!

 

[Lion Hearted Man]

It's kind of funny how medical "miracles" only happen in the context of diseases where the body can heal itself. Prayer has never regrown an amputee's limb, but cancer, which is known to spontaneously remiss, is often the one "cured".

How do you know that the cancer was cured by your prayer? What if a guy in Arizona can Cocoa Puffs that morning...maybe that cured the girl? What if the girl found a lucky penny on the ground...maybe that was it? You can find anything temporally linked to the effect and call it a cause, but proving cause and effect is much more difficult.

There is probably no such thing as a miracle. In every instance, you can explain it away and find a physical cause for what happened. Calling something a miracle is lazy, and pulls the responsibility of finding out what happened away from us.

That girl's cancer could have been a miracle. But what if it wasn't? What if there was something about her that beat the cancer, and if we knew it what it was we could use that to help other kids with cancer? What is the better course of action, sitting around and calling it a miracle or getting to work to help others?

 

[Psudopod]

At a previus forum I went to made up of MANY diffrent people (christians, atheists, wiccans, spirtualists...etc) they would try to explain miracles and things like the "light" you see in near death experiences.

The things is, lots of thing we didn't previously understand turned out to have perfectly natural explanations. It doesn't mean that the event couldn't have been a miracle, but it does mean you cannot use a plausable event as evidence of miracles.

My question is I hear about miracles every day, but it seems the non believers ignore them or makr make excuses on how the "miracle" happened. So how can they say miracles aren't real?

If there is a valid alternative, why assume it was a miracle?

A good example I tell them is when I was a teen people came to me with prayer requests because my prayers always got answered. One day my dads friend came over and asked for prayer for a little girl who had cancer. She was days away from dying and there was no hope for her at all. I believe she was in a coma too. ANyways, I prayed for her that night and a few hours later in the morning the friend called crying because the girl was talking and feeling great. They scanned for cancer and didn't understand because there was no cancer anymore! Even the doctor said it had to be miriacle.

Have you got any evidence of this, other than your say-so? I'm not saying you are lying, but you have to understand that unverified anecdote isn't really very convincing.

How can someone explain that scientificly and say it was not a miracle?!? I'd love to see a miracle where someone gets an arm cut off, but on the way to the hospital the arm reataches and is healed. I'd like to see science explain that!

Well cancer does spontaneously remiss in some cases. Its rare but it does happen. And yes, something completely impossible like an arm being reattached would be a great example. Why do you think we never have any verified cases of such?

 

[Jazer]

My question is I hear about miracles every day, but it seems the non believers ignore them or makr make excuses on how the "miracle" happened. So how can they say miracles aren't real?

It is very easy to ignore a miracle because a miracle just restores things to the way they should be. The problem is then to prove that there was ever a problem in the first place. Of course with medicine they like to use the term spontaneous remission. This can be do to a placebo effect, or the power of positive suggestion, or the tremendous healing power of the body. So there are lots of explanations they can come up with to avoid having to say: God did it.

 

[selfinflikted]

I deny miracles simply because I've never seen one. The stories I hear all the time are usually half-truths and embellished, some made completely up, and some that can be explained by natural phenomena - but I have never seen anything that breaks any known laws of physics or nature or whatever.

 

[CabVet]

There are a lot of things science cannot explain, but "we don't know" never equals "God did it". Unless of course you are deeply religious and believe what you want, in which case I think Catholic saints performed many more miracles than God himself ever did.

 

[hollyda]

One of the problems with the perception of miracles is the act of a miracle is entirely subjective. Say Mary Sue is hit by a car on her evening walk. When she comes to, she describes a visit from an angel who told her it wasn't her time to go. Can anyone deny Mary Sue had an experience? No. Of course not. I would never say that experience lacks value. I would merely question her conclusions.

My friend's mother is highly religious, and often cites her experience with Ouji boards as proof of the devil's existence. Neither my friend nor I deny this experience occurred, but we don't take her word as fact. Why? Third person testimony is highly unreliable. I wasn't there to experience this event, and I haven't been able to recreate it, despite attempts.

Joe Nickell is a well known paranormal investigator and has made a career investigating this sort of phenomenon. There is a perception that people who believe they have seen/experienced something generally are dismissed because the claim itself is extraordinary. I've heard him speak a number of times, and he stresses it is important to not dismiss the experience itself. If Mary Sue believes she had a near death experience, we can safely assume she experienced something. We might believe it was a dream, and since we were not the ones who experienced this, we are entitled to remain objective, rather than blindly accept Mary Sue's interpretation.

Personal testimonials are emotionally compelling, but they are simply unreliable when it comes to ascertaining the facts. I love my friend's mother dearly, and despite her fervent belief and her assertions, I cannot believe what she says is true. I don't necessarily disbelieve it, but I haven't presented with any evidence aside from "I was there and you weren't."

People aren't as observant as you think, and in stimulating situations, the memory is susceptible to being tampered by emotions.

I'll leave you with a couple videos.

Test your observation skills - YouTube

MEMORY not necessarily a true account - YouTube

 

[Lion Hearted Man]

It is very easy to ignore a miracle because a miracle just restores things to the way they should be. The problem is then to prove that there was ever a problem in the first place. Of course with medicine they like to use the term spontaneous remission. This can be do to a placebo effect, or the power of positive suggestion, or the tremendous healing power of the body. So there are lots of explanations they can come up with to avoid having to say: God did it.

There are mechanisms that explain spontaneous remission within our current understanding of immunology and oncology.

 

[ranunculus]

It has long been assumed that spontaneous regressions, let alone cures, from cancer are rare phenomena, and that some forms of cancer are more prone to unexpected courses (melanoma, neuroblastoma, lymphoma) than others (carcinoma). Frequency was estimated to be about 1 in 100,000 cancers;[2] however, in reality this ratio might be largely under- or overestimated. For one, not all cases of spontaneous regression can be apprehended, either because the case was not well documented or the physician was not willing or literate enough to publish, or simply because the patient did not show up in a clinic any more. On the other hand, for the past 100 years almost all cancer patients have been treated in one way or the other, such that the influence of treatment cannot always be excluded.

At least for small tumors the frequency of spontaneous regression most likely was drastically underrated. In a carefully designed study on mammography it was found that 22% of all breast cancer cases underwent spontaneous regression.

Spontaneous remission - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Suppose only 1 out of 100,000 cancers go into remission. That means you still have a better chance of beating cancer then you do of winning the lottery (times a hundred). And people win the lottery every week. We understand that this isn't a miracle because statistically, that is what's supposed to happen. Same with spontaneous remission.

 

[FrenchyBearpaw]

A good example I tell them is when I was a teen people came to me with prayer requests because my prayers always got answered. One day my dads friend came over and asked for prayer for a little girl who had cancer. She was days away from dying and there was no hope for her at all. I believe she was in a coma too. ANyways, I prayed for her that night and a few hours later in the morning the friend called crying because the girl was talking and feeling great. They scanned for cancer and didn't understand because there was no cancer anymore! Even the doctor said it had to be miriacle.

How can someone explain that scientificly and say it was not a miracle?!? I'd love to see a miracle where someone gets an arm cut off, but on the way to the hospital the arm reataches and is healed. I'd like to see science explain that!

Fact: Spontaneous remission of cancer happens.

You can listen to Tracie Harris explain the difference between rare events and miracles.


A very beautiful response from Tracie Harris [ Atheist Experience show #693 ] - part 1/2 - YouTube

 

[ranunculus]

^ relevant part starts at 10:00.

It is very easy to ignore a miracle because a miracle just restores things to the way they should be. The problem is then to prove that there was ever a problem in the first place. Of course with medicine they like to use the term spontaneous remission. This can be do to a placebo effect, or the power of positive suggestion, or the tremendous healing power of the body. So there are lots of explanations they can come up with to avoid having to say: God did it.

What if Galileo, looking for an explanation for the tides, gave up and said "god did it"?
What if Isaac Newton, confronted with the problem of why the orbits of the planets are an ellipse, just threw up his hands and said "god did it"?
What if Albert Einstein, instead of trying to reconcile Galileo's, Newton's and Maxwell's theories, looked at the universe and said, "god did it"?

Even though they might have been theists, these people sought physical explanations and never proposed god as a cause. Because saying 'god did it', is a complete non-answer. It explains nothing. It just adds more mystery.

 

[Jazer]

What if Albert Einstein, instead of trying to reconcile Galileo's, Newton's and Maxwell's theories, looked at the universe and said, "god did it"?

What if God showed them how He did it. You either believe the Bible or you don't. God said He is the one that gives us wisdom, knowledge and understanding. That is why the great discoverys in Science come from Christians and men of God. He not only give us the ability to understand. He gives us a universe that is understandable. For me a fossil is like a greeting card from God. He wants to show us what He did, so He preserved the fossil for us. What He does not want to show us He will destroy and there will be nothing left to find.

 

[Greg1234]

Even though they might have been theists, these people sought physical explanations and never proposed god as a cause. Because saying 'god did it', is a complete non-answer. It explains nothing. It just adds more mystery.

On the contrary, the seed grows.

 

[Greg1234]

Prayer has never regrown an amputee's limb,

The flow of water hinges on the ability of the tap.

 

[Greg1234]

That means you still have a better chance of beating cancer then you do of winning the lottery (times a hundred).

The German New Medicine a new Natural Science" by Professor Dr. Hans Ulrich Niemitz

On November the 12th, 2001, a little before the death of the Beatle George Harrison, the “Sunday Mail” published the following: “George Harrison is visibly better after radical radiation therapy in New York. The new controversial therapy has been defined by the physician himself as ‘a lottery game’”. Even one of the richest and most famous people could not find a cure for cancer that wasn’t a lottery. How can this be explained? Only with the fact that official medicine is unable to offer any therapy that is not a game of chance.​

 

[ranunculus]

What if God showed them how He did it. You either believe the Bible or you don't.

If there is a physical explanation, there's no need to postulate the existence of metaphysical beings. And even if there isn't one yet, still no reason to try to explain a mystery with an even bigger mystery.

God said He is the one that gives us wisdom, knowledge and understanding. That is why the great discoverys in Science come from Christians and men of God. He not only give us the ability to understand. He gives us a universe that is understandable. For me a fossil is like a greeting card from God. He wants to show us what He did, so He preserved the fossil for us. What He does not want to show us He will destroy and there will be nothing left to find.

Co-relation does not equal causation. Just because many great scientists were christian doesn't mean they were great scientists because they were christian.
80% of the named stars have Arabic names. Because at the time those discoveries were made, the middle east was a flourishing center of science. After Islam took over it died down.

What "god did it" does is, it stops scientific inquiry. "There no way to answer this mystery, I must be the work of a metaphysical being".

 

[Belk]

 

[CounselorForChrist]

Maybe its just as simple as there are no mind blowing miracles like an arm reattaching simply because then it would (to some degree) prove it had to be God. And if we have proof, then we might be a little more....lazy in what we do.

I know people always ask me why doens't god just show himself. I said its because of faith. If we "knew" he existed we wouldn't have to work so hard to be like Jesus. True we would still be requierd to, but most wouldn't because they seen God, therefor why work so hard for it if you know its real! Or at least thats how I was taught.

 

[Belk]

Maybe its just as simple as there are no mind blowing miracles like an arm reattaching simply because then it would (to some degree) prove it had to be God. And if we have proof, then we might be a little more....lazy in what we do.

I know people always ask me why doens't god just show himself. I said its because of faith. If we "knew" he existed we wouldn't have to work so hard to be like Jesus. True we would still be requierd to, but most wouldn't because they seen God, therefor why work so hard for it if you know its real! Or at least thats how I was taught.

So you are saying God performs miracles that are hard to distinguish from natural occurrences because he wants us to be uncertain if it is God or natural occurrences.

 

[FrenchyBearpaw]

Maybe its just as simple as there are no mind blowing miracles like an arm reattaching simply because then it would (to some degree) prove it had to be God. And if we have proof, then we might be a little more....lazy in what we do.

I know people always ask me why doens't god just show himself. I said its because of faith. If we "knew" he existed we wouldn't have to work so hard to be like Jesus. True we would still be requierd to, but most wouldn't because they seen God, therefor why work so hard for it if you know its real! Or at least thats how I was taught.

Of course you were taught this. Otherwise faith, in this context, really doesn't make much sense. Personally, I don't feel the need at this point in my life to ascribe belief or faith in supernatural concepts.

http://whywontgodhealamputees.com/