How can RCs and Protestants reconcile

LJSGM · Feb 9, 2009

The church is "where ever two or three gathered together in My NAME."

Where ever there are true christians, there is the church.

I will be in unity with those that truely desire it.

Not a false unity of "you have join this or that institution before we unite."

Albion · Feb 9, 2009

All interesting ideas, but I still think that the more interesting one is "How can we all reconcile?"

Christ+a · Feb 9, 2009

in reply to the op:

get off the monopoly position and allow for ALL believers in and followers of Christ to be the Church/Bride/Body of Christ.

including: respect/tolerance/equal standing for other expressions of faith, like baptism by submersion, communion symbols of body and blood etc. as long as Bible-based.

but that won't happen.

so, i'm afraid "none" is the realistic answer.

chestertonrules · Feb 9, 2009

LJSGM said:
The church is "where ever two or three gathered together in My NAME."

Where ever there are true christians, there is the church.

I will be in unity with those that truely desire it.

Not a false unity of "you have join this or that institution before we unite."

If these "two or three" are not in unity with the Church you might not want to be in their gang.

Matt 18

16But if he will not listen, take one or two others along, so that 'every matter may be established by the testimony of "two or three" witnesses.' 17If he refuses to listen to them, tell it to the church; and if he refuses to listen even to the church, treat him as you would a pagan or a tax collector.

LJSGM · Feb 9, 2009

chestertonrules said:
If these "two or three" are not in unity with the Church you might not want to be in their gang.

Matt 18

16But if he will not listen, take one or two others along, so that 'every matter may be established by the testimony of "two or three" witnesses.' 17If he refuses to listen to them, tell it to the church; and if he refuses to listen even to the church, treat him as you would a pagan or a tax collector.

When you say "the church" do you mean the Roman Catholic Church? The one and only church?

I said I would be in unity with those in the church, not that I would be in unity with those in the RCC. Big difference.

LittleLambofJesus · Feb 9, 2009

chestertonrules said:
If these "two or three" are not in unity with the Church you might not want to be in their gang.

Matt 18

16But if he will not listen, take one or two others along, so that 'every matter may be established by the testimony of "two or three" witnesses.' 17If he refuses to listen to them, tell it to the church; and if he refuses to listen even to the church, treat him as you would a pagan or a tax collector.

Isn't that how Roman Catholicism views those outside of that denomination

Albion · Feb 9, 2009

Christ+a said:
in reply to the op:

get off the monopoly position and allow for ALL believers in and followers of Christ to be the Church/Bride/Body of Christ.

including: respect/tolerance/equal standing for other expressions of faith, like baptism by submersion, communion symbols of body and blood etc. as long as Bible-based.

but that won't happen.

so, i'm afraid "none" is the realistic answer.

It would be terrific if there were a more hopeful answer, but yours is a solid and reasonable one that I agree with. There will be no reunification, at least not involving very many people, until and unless the RCC modifies its stance on infallibility and what you've called the "monopoly position" regarding true churches. Being respectful enough to merely TALK to other churches as equals would be a start, but the Vatican won't even do that, so the idea of there being a shot at a more substantial rapproachment is out of the realm of possibility.

chestertonrules · Feb 9, 2009

LJSGM said:
When you say "the church" do you mean the Roman Catholic Church? The one and only church?

I said I would be in unity with those in the church, not that I would be in unity with those in the RCC. Big difference.

If you think there was more than one church when these words of scripture were written, please let us know what they were.

I believe that Jesus only founded one church.

Albion · Feb 9, 2009

chestertonrules said:
If these "two or three" are not in unity with the Church you might not want to be in their gang.

The bible verse in question does not teach us that just any two or three people collected at random will do, you know. The idea of Jesus being with them automatically includes the fact of them being disciples of his gathered in his name.

Albion · Feb 9, 2009

chestertonrules said:
If you think there was more than one church when these words of scripture were written, please let us know what they were.

I believe that Jesus only founded one church.

Of course. And that was the total of all who believed on him. It was not the Methodist, Lutheran, Roman Catholic, Greek Orthodox, Pentecostal, Baptist, or any other division that developed later.

chestertonrules · Feb 9, 2009

Albion said:
The bible verse in question does not teach us that just any two or three people collected at random will do, you know. The idea of Jesus being with them automatically includes the fact of them being disciples of his gathered in his name.

The point is that the Church is the highest authority we have in matters of disagreement on earth.

It is the pillar and foundation of truth.

LJSGM · Feb 9, 2009

chestertonrules said:
If you think there was more than one church when these words of scripture were written, please let us know what they were.

I believe that Jesus only founded one church.

Yes, he did found only one church.

It's not the institution of the RCC.

The church is not the lutherian church, or the EO or the bible church down the street either.

Those are all man made structures, man made rules, laws, doctrines.

LittleLambofJesus · Feb 9, 2009

chestertonrules said:
The point is that the Church is the highest authority we have in matters of disagreement on earth.

It is the pillar and foundation of truth.

Reve 3:12 The one conquering I will be making him a pillar/stulon <4769> in the sanctuary of the God of Me. And out-side not no he may be coming out still. And I shall be writing on him the name of the God of Me, and the name of the City of the God of Me, of the New Jerusalem, the one descending out of the heaven from the God of Me, and the name of Me, the new.

Albion · Feb 9, 2009

chestertonrules said:
The point is that the Church is the highest authority we have in matters of disagreement on earth.

It is the pillar and foundation of truth.

Not according to the Bible (pillar and foundation). I guess you have your own theory on this.

And the verse you offered us as a justification for your POV doesn't say anything about some denomination or hierarchical organization anyway. It says to us "take one or two others along, so that 'every matter may be established by the testimony of "two or three""

Two or three believers is certainly not some denomination or communion, but even if it were, this deals with disputes involving an individual, not "highest authority."

chestertonrules · Feb 9, 2009

LJSGM said:
Yes, he did found only one church.

It's not the institution of the RCC.

The church is not the lutherian church, or the EO or the bible church down the street either.

Those are all man made structures, man made rules, laws, doctrines.

That is your opinion.

The Catholic Church was founded by Jesus. We have plenty of writings that point directly to the Catholic Church.

Since you admit that Jesus only founded one Church, which church do you believe it was?

Luke 10
16"He who listens to you listens to me; he who rejects you rejects me; but he who rejects me rejects him who sent me."

2 Thes 2
15So then, brothers, stand firm and hold to the teachings we passed on to you, whether by word of mouth or by letter.

We know who the early Christians were, and we can see that they listened to the apostles and held to the traditions which they passed on.

Were these traditions Catholic?

chestertonrules · Feb 9, 2009

Albion said:
Not according to the Bible (pillar and foundation). I guess you have your own theory on this.

And the verse you offered us as a justification for your POV doesn't say anything about some denomination or hierarchical organization anyway. It says to us "take one or two others along, so that 'every matter may be established by the testimony of "two or three""

Two or three believers is certainly not some denomination or communion, but even if it were, this deals with disputes involving an individual, not "highest authority."

1 Timothy 3
15if I am delayed, you will know how people ought to conduct themselves in God's household, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and foundation of the truth.

LittleLambofJesus · Feb 9, 2009

chestertonrules said:
1 Timothy 3
15if I am delayed, you will know how people ought to conduct themselves in God's household, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and foundation of the truth.

Yes chester, we are ALL well aware of that verse by now. Thank you

Albion · Feb 9, 2009

chestertonrules said:
That is your opinion.

The Catholic Church was founded by Jesus. We have plenty of writings that point directly to the Catholic Church.

I don't agree. Show them to us if you have them.

Since you admit that Jesus only founded one Church, which church do you believe it was?

That has already been answered and explained by several posters here. The church Jesus founded was not divided into denominations or communions. It was the assembly of all belivers in Him, even with doctrinal differences among them. That's all very much explained in scripture as well as testified to by historians.

We know who the early Christians were, and we can see that they listened to the apostles and held to the traditions which they passed on.

Were these traditions Catholic?

If you mean, were they universally applicable, sure. If you want to suggest that "Catholic," which does not appear in the Bible and therefore cannot prove or disprove anything about the church Jesus founded, meant the Roman Catholic denomination of later centuries, no.

LJSGM · Feb 9, 2009

chestertonrules, do you believe that the RCC is Jesus' kingdom?

Albion · Feb 9, 2009

chestertonrules said:
1 Timothy 3
15if I am delayed, you will know how people ought to conduct themselves in God's household, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and foundation of the truth.

As we see when we read the WHOLE verse and not just the part you highlighted in black...

...it is the people (the household) of God, not any institution, denomination, or particular branch of his followers, that is referred to as "the church."

How can RCs and Protestants reconcile

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