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Nope forgiveness of God id given. The person must be sorry for the sin and not want to do it again. If they arent sorry and still love the sin they arent able to receive forgivenessAnd he just lies to the others.
Yes but i haven't delved very far into them..
There is a reason for that.. much of what I read seems very worldly, this pope didn't like that pope who didn't think this pope blah blah blah .
So caring all the whys and wherefore were rather.. I don't know just didn't seem important. Church history reads like a soap opera.
What was important to me was learning Scripture.
All these posts and yet none ponder the difference between being forgiven in this age vs. being forgiven on judgement day. Only Jesus' death atones for sins on judgement day.
But, does anyone think about what it means to be forgiven in this age?
Who's attaching that meaning to it? What I'm meaning is that when it comes to this subject it's not just a matter of choosing what we think it should mean because this is a reality for Christians. The forgiveness ministered by the Priest is something experienced for 2000 years now. Someone can't come along and say....nope a Priest can't do that... Truth happens, and for those who it happens to someone saying it don't will just get a raised eyebrow. Truth happens and the Church does it's best to explain what is revealed. These explanations aren't intellectual concoctions they're what Jesus meant when He said to Nicodemus, " we preach what we see"I'm talking about interpreting that passage. It will contradict with the rest of the Bible, if you end up with an interpretation where people atone sins for God.
Who's attaching that meaning to it? What I'm meaning is that when it comes to this subject it's not just a matter of choosing what we think it should mean because this is a reality for Christians. The forgiveness ministered by the Priest is something experienced for 2000 years now. Someone can't come along and say....nope a Priest can't do that... Truth happens, and for those who it happens to someone saying it don't will just get a raised eyebrow. Truth happens and the Church does it's best to explain what is revealed. These explanations aren't intellectual concoctions they're what Jesus meant when He said to Nicodemus, " we preach what we see"
I believe that the primary mission of the Apostles, and the Church they founded, is to reconcile the world to God. So, the forgiveness of sins is also the primary objective. The means by which the Church established to carry out that mission is the Sacraments. These trully are visible signs because what they signify they accomplish. God isn't boxed in by the sacraments because He can do what He pleases but they guarantee that God will act. What you describe as a visible sign is not a visible sign. A symbol doesn't signify anything if what it signifies is a symbol. It's a symbol of a symbol. God knows we need a sign of His participation seeing through a dark lens as we do. When a Catholic goes to confession we experience God's forgiveness as a reality. There is no debate or confusion about it. This is true about the teachings of the Church. The obedience to Christ such as the breaking of Bread brought real changes in our souls that couldn't be accomplished by our own doing. They are mysteries that the Church has explained as best as she can. These are our teachings. We don't teach what our intellect establishes as true, we believe what the Holy Spirit reveals. We don't just find them in accord with Scriptures, they open hidden layers of depth in Scriptures so we come to know a little bit more of that "all truth" promised. These are things that you would deny are there but we understand you just can't see them. Your faith founded on protest blinds you to them. Frankly when I hear protestants say "that is no where in Scripture" I think 'why don't they understand you can't build truth on error?. So, your claims of 'this can't be or that' you aren't able to substantiate because you argue with a Church that teaches from a deeper understanding of Scripture that isn't mixed with error. Jesus told Nicodemus that 'we' teach from what we see'. This is how the truth is revealed to the Catholic Church.It's a bit unclear to me what you believe. In your opinion, when people ask forgiveness from priests, can they give it? The cornerstone and stumbling block of Christianity is Christ's atonement. We must trust in it, and we're saved. No pastors or priests are needed in this, apart from teaching about salvation to people. The power of priests to "forgive" sins is only a testimony that they "have been forgiven" by God in the past. In the exact same way, baptism isn't for the forgiveness of the sins, but it is a visible sign and symbol about their being already forgiven. This issue divides Christians into Orthodox/Catholics and Protestans and is extremely important. The real answer, that only Jesus forgives people directly, is too hard to digest at least for some Catholics. Salvation is such a simple and fun thing, that people add all kinds of doctrine in it to make it appear more "religious". I'm not accusing you of this yet, because I haven't understood your beliefs completely.
believe that the primary mission of the Apostles, and the Church they founded, is to reconcile the world to God
My post was to get people to ponder/think about the difference between and the result of forgiveness in this age vs. the next age. None has thought/considered this. Instead people just want to argue in circles their long argued ideas of what they have been taught..
It would appear as though you have something pretty profound you would like to share..........You have the floor.
You will get two sides here for an answer.
1) Only Jesus forgives.
2) Scripture says some in the church can forgive.
They are both correct.
1) Only Jesus atones for the eternal consequences of our sin.
2) There are earthly consequences of sin. Pastors and elders can forgive these as James writes.
James 5:13 Is anyone among you in trouble? Let them pray. Is anyone happy? Let them sing songs of praise. 14 Is anyone among you sick? Let them call the elders of the church to pray over them and anoint them with oil in the name of the Lord. 15 And the prayer offered in faith will make the sick person well; the Lord will raise them up. If they have sinned, they will be forgiven. 16 Therefore confess your sins to each other and pray for each other so that you may be healed. The prayer of a righteous person is powerful and effective.
Do you really think this is a convincing argument? Are you so enamored with your church that you think it always without error? Recent events in the RCC should prove no church pure. You label reformers "protesters" and think your slander truth.Your faith founded on protest blinds you to them. Frankly when I hear protestants say "that is no where in Scripture" I think 'why don't they understand you can't build truth on error?. So, your claims of 'this can't be or that' you aren't able to substantiate because you argue with a Church that teaches from a deeper understanding of Scripture that isn't mixed with error. Jesus told Nicodemus that 'we' teach from what we see'. This is how the truth is revealed to the Catholic Church.
The Truth belonged to a community on earth. It taught a doctrine without error. Does that community still exist? Does following the bible guarantee a doctrine without error? Can Truth be built on error?Do you really think this is a convincing argument? Are you so enamored with your church that you think it always without error? Recent events in the RCC should prove no church pure. You label reformers "protesters" and think your slander truth.
The most glaring of your errors is to call one who follows scripture as one who "build truth on error".
Is there one that everything believed and taught is without error? Is the Truth without error taught anywhere on earth?The most glaring of your errors is to call one who follows scripture as one who "build truth on error".
I am not Catholic, but let me try to help. You argue scripture against another's scripture. There is scripture for both sides, so I believe those having a hard time to digest are those on your side because you are the ones dismissing scripture. For once the Catholics are standing by scripture. I don't blame you because the biggest stumbling block is over what is forgiveness. This is the crux of the divide. It is not taught and I don't even think churches have a good understanding of the different aspects of forgiveness.It's a bit unclear to me what you believe. In your opinion, when people ask forgiveness from priests, can they give it? The cornerstone and stumbling block of Christianity is Christ's atonement. We must trust in it, and we're saved. No pastors or priests are needed in this, apart from teaching about salvation to people. The power of priests to "forgive" sins is only a testimony that they "have been forgiven" by God in the past. In the exact same way, baptism isn't for the forgiveness of the sins, but it is a visible sign and symbol about their being already forgiven. This issue divides Christians into Orthodox/Catholics and Protestans and is extremely important. The real answer, that only Jesus forgives people directly, is too hard to digest at least for some Catholics. Salvation is such a simple and fun thing, that people add all kinds of doctrine in it to make it appear more "religious". I'm not accusing you of this yet, because I haven't understood your beliefs completely.
Are you Jewish?The Truth belonged to a community on earth. It taught a doctrine without error. Does that community still exist?
First there is no need for any church to be without error for people to be saved. This is the glory of God's grace. There is no works test for salvation, nor a doctrine test.Is there one that everything believed and taught is without error? Is the Truth without error taught anywhere on earth?
Is there a need to be led to all truth?First there is no need for any church to be without error for peo
Do you really think there is another source for unquestioned truth?Do you really think there is another source for unquestioned truth?
ple to be saved
To me this is a protest of my faith based on a false premise. Holding it forms a blinder.There is no works test for salvation, nor a doctrine test.
Why did He Bother if it isn't necessary?There was one who taught the truth and everything he said and did was true.
Are we talking about the same forgiveness? I hope not.I am not Catholic, but let me try to help. You argue scripture against another's scripture. There is scripture for both sides, so I believe those having a hard time to digest are those on your side because you are the ones dismissing scripture. For once the Catholics are standing by scripture. I don't blame you because the biggest stumbling block is over what is forgiveness. This is the crux of the divide. It is not taught and I don't even think churches have a good understanding of the different aspects of forgiveness.
I will start with a question to you. How many times does a sin have to be forgiven? You seem to think only once, by Jesus for eternal life. But such an answer ignores multiple texts in scripture. Jesus taught everyone to forgive in the Lord's prayer. Jesus gave authority to apostles to forgive. James teaches elders to take confessions, forgive and heal. Scripture also speaks of forgiveness in the Lord's Supper.
Next, consider forgiveness in two ages. You are fixated in forgiveness on judgement day where only Jesus' death can atone for our sins then. This is correct, but you ignore the need for forgiveness in this age. This is where pastors have a hand in, along with communion and our prayer of repentance in the Lord's Prayer.
But he tells them they are forgiven. Can't you see how that is a problem? Man cheats on his wife, man goes to priest ,man confesses. Priests says you're forgiven. Man goes right back to cheating because he never intended to do otherwise. Man never comes to saving knowledge through Faith because he doesn't think he has to.Nope forgiveness of God id given. The person must be sorry for the sin and not want to do it again. If they arent sorry and still love the sin they arent able to receive forgiveness
As I explained about receiving God's forgiveness, that man did not receive forgiveness. Either he is deceiving himself or the Priest. In this case he is sinning in the confessional. He is lying to the Priest. His confession isnt valid.Man goes right back to cheating because he never intended to do otherwise. M
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