How can people live in sin and perform miracles at the same time?

[tonychanyt]

Mt 7:

22 On that day many will say to me, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many mighty works in your name?’ 23 And then will I declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from me, you workers of lawlessness.’

Jesus never knows these miracle workers. They use the name of Jesus as a formula without obeying him. They don't have the love of God in them. They are self-deceived. 1C 13:

2b If I have all faith, so as to remove mountains, but have not love, I am nothing.

They operated under a different spirit. Not all supernatural power comes from God. Satan and demons can also perform signs and wonders to deceive people. 2C 11:

14 And no wonder, for even Satan disguises himself as an angel of light.

Mt 7:

15 Beware of false prophets, who come to you in sheep’s clothing but inwardly are ravenous wolves.

How can people live in sin and perform miracles at the same time?

The ability to perform miracles, cast out demons, or prophesy does not automatically indicate a right relationship with God. God’s sovereignty permits counterfeit power to produce signs and wonders.

 

[Richard T]

Ok, but if they are using scripture and the name of Jesus, could it be God doing the miracles in spite of the minister's failings?

 

[Hoping2]

Ok, but if they are using scripture and the name of Jesus, could it be God doing the miracles in spite of the minister's failings?

I'ld say NO.
As God heareth not sinners, (John 9:31), He is not even listening to false preacher's prayers.

 

[Richard T]

I'ld say NO.
As God heareth not sinners, (John 9:31), He is not even listening to false preacher's prayers.

True but God honors faith. Also here is Paul talking about bad motives in preachers as well.

Phil 1 It is true that some preach Christ out of envy and rivalry, but others out of goodwill. 16 The latter do so out of love, knowing that I am put here for the defense of the gospel. 17 The former preach Christ out of selfish ambition, not sincerely, supposing that they can stir up trouble for me while I am in chains. 18 But what does it matter? The important thing is that in every way, whether from false motives or true, Christ is preached. And because of this I rejoice. Since the gifts operate out of love though I would think that the preachers in Phil 1, would not have much success in the miracle healing business.

 

[KevinT]

Mt 7:

22 On that day many will say to me, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many mighty works in your name?’ 23 And then will I declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from me, you workers of lawlessness.’

Jesus never knows these miracle workers. They use the name of Jesus as a formula without obeying him. They don't have the love of God in them. They are self-deceived. 1C 13:

They operated under a different spirit. Not all supernatural power comes from God. Satan and demons can also perform signs and wonders to deceive people. 2C 11:

How can people live in sin and perform miracles at the same time?

The ability to perform miracles, cast out demons, or prophesy does not automatically indicate a right relationship with God. God’s sovereignty permits counterfeit power to produce signs and wonders.

Obviously any miraculous power would either come from God or from Satan. What is interesting to me is that the people themselves don't seem to realize which side they were on. They are confused and ask the Lord, "weren't we working for you??"

I can only conclude that God may have allowed His blessing to be dispensed through channels (people), who ultimately don't have the needed connection to Christ.

Kevin

 

[Hoping2]

True but God honors faith. Also here is Paul talking about bad motives in preachers as well.

Phil 1 It is true that some preach Christ out of envy and rivalry, but others out of goodwill. 16 The latter do so out of love, knowing that I am put here for the defense of the gospel. 17 The former preach Christ out of selfish ambition, not sincerely, supposing that they can stir up trouble for me while I am in chains. 18 But what does it matter? The important thing is that in every way, whether from false motives or true, Christ is preached. And because of this I rejoice. Since the gifts operate out of love though I would think that the preachers in Phil 1, would not have much success in the miracle healing business.

Agreed...kinda like the Jewish exorcists, in Acts 19:13-16.

The devil sometimes causes evil men to do miracles in order to lend credibility to false preachers or doctrines.

 

[Richard T]

Agreed...kinda like the Jewish exorcists, in Acts 19:13-16.

The devil sometimes causes evil men to do miracles in order to lend credibility to false preachers or doctrines.

I agree that could happen but the biggest religious sects or cults with strange doctrine rarely if ever have any kind of miracles. Of those cults or those with errant doctrine that do have manifestations, they seem to be small and die out when the founder goes. (The Way International might be one example) These are generally easy to identify.

The harder ones to identify are ones that might be within Pentecostal/Charismatic circles. Though some might be in this for the money, can they be used by God? Also, are some used of the devil? I suppose the answer is yes to both those questions but how is one to discern? Certainly not every rich preacher is just about money. I guess the telltale sign is to look at their fruit. Do they really have converts and are they winning and helping disciple the lost? If that is occurring and their doctrine is decent then I would think they are an asset to the body of Christ. Errant or false preachers can grow things too though. I guess then the reliance on the Holy Spirit is needed. I have gone to churches where I had a check in my spirit. Usually that can come when I hear flawed doctrine or just sense a strangeness to the service that alerts me.

 

[tturt]

Besides the ministers involved. what about other people's faith in God - the person being prayed for, their friends, family, fellow believers. Or consider the prayers of the righteous from earlier times.

-"Four men came to him carrying a paralyzed man. 4 Since they could not bring him to Yeshua because of the crowd, they made an opening in the roof over the place where Yeshua was. Then they lowered the cot on which the paralyzed man was lying.
5 When Yeshua saw their faith, he said to the man, “Friend, your sins are forgiven.” Mark 2

-Jesus, while on earth, prayed "I’m not praying only for them. I’m also praying for those who will believe in me through their message. 21 I pray that all of these people continue to have unity in the way that you, Father, are in me and I am in you. I pray that they may be united with us so that the world will believe that you have sent me." John 17

 

[soldier of light]

True but God honors faith. Also here is Paul talking about bad motives in preachers as well.

They're faithless though

 

[RamiC]

Ok, but if they are using scripture and the name of Jesus, could it be God doing the miracles in spite of the minister's failings?

Many will say to Me in that day, ‘Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?’ 23 And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!’ Matthew 7:21- 22 NKJV

No, because this means the name does not cut it.

"45 A good man out of the good treasure of his heart brings forth good; and an evil man out of the evil treasure of his heart brings forth evil." Matthew 7:22 NKJV

No, because this means the Lord does not go through men of evil to do miracles.

Minister's can have failings, there is no way they must be perfect, because that is impossible. I usually look out for the results helping the kingdom, not just looking and feeling good. Did the result increase faith in Jesus? Did it support or benefit a whole group? God answers prayer in accordance with His will, and to show us He wants a relationship with us. He is not just showing off.

 

[Hoping2]

I agree that could happen but the biggest religious sects or cults with strange doctrine rarely if ever have any kind of miracles. Of those cults or those with errant doctrine that do have manifestations, they seem to be small and die out when the founder goes. (The Way International might be one example) These are generally easy to identify.

The harder ones to identify are ones that might be within Pentecostal/Charismatic circles. Though some might be in this for the money, can they be used by God? Also, are some used of the devil? I suppose the answer is yes to both those questions but how is one to discern? Certainly not every rich preacher is just about money. I guess the telltale sign is to look at their fruit. Do they really have converts and are they winning and helping disciple the lost? If that is occurring and their doctrine is decent then I would think they are an asset to the body of Christ. Errant or false preachers can grow things too though. I guess then the reliance on the Holy Spirit is needed. I have gone to churches where I had a check in my spirit. Usually that can come when I hear flawed doctrine or just sense a strangeness to the service that alerts me.

"How is one to discern" is a good question.
The answer is to see the rest of their fruit !
Godly folks/groups are not stealing, lying, authorizing killing, committing adultery, or covetous.