How can one be a "Liberal Catholic"?

[Cura Animarum]

I see where you are coming from but the same question still keeps popping up...

So many verses to use but this one seems to do my point justice

How can the Church that Christ instituted be wrong? Shouldn't all of it's teachings be applied in all areas?


It's our responsibility to call others out for their sin. We can't just disagree and just say it doesn't apply to us.

It reminds me of an on-going issue between us and our son. Since he was about 16 he's wanted to get a tatoo which, from the start my wife and I made clear we did not agree with. At the same time we acknowledged that, once he was 18 we would have little say in the matter.

Every now and then he comes to me with a new design idea and asks "What do you think of this?" or "What if I got something like this, over here?"

I just shrug my shoulders and tell him that he already knows what I think.

We've made it clear that we think its wrong I remind him of that whenever he brings it up looking for approval...but we still invite him to dinner and would do so even if he ever got one. He's our son, and we love him and while I may not agree with the choices he might make in his life, the deep love I have for him will never allow me to turn him away.

My faith, and the Sacred Word tells me that God's love is even greater than mine. It also tells me that we as Church are called to mirror that great love to the world.

While its true that many quotes from scripture could be used to grasp at the kind of power that would help us to rationalize the hateful rejection of those we have deemed sinners. The Model Christ shows us, and the Sacred Word He speaks is and will always be the final word "Love your enemy, do good to those who hate you; forgive seven times seventy times; and Love one another, as I have loved you." This man who was God, and who loved his own, even when faced with their own sin and brokenness.

 

[Maggie893]

It reminds me of an on-going issue between us and our son. Since he was about 16 he's wanted to get a tatoo which, from the start my wife and I made clear we did not agree with. At the same time we acknowledged that, once he was 18 we would have little say in the matter.

Every now and then he comes to me with a new design idea and asks "What do you think of this?" or "What if I got something like this, over here?"

I just shrug my shoulders and tell him that he already knows what I think.

We've made it clear that we think its wrong I remind him of that whenever he brings it up looking for approval...but we still invite him to dinner and would do so even if he ever got one. He's our son, and we love him and while I may not agree with the choices he might make in his life, the deep love I have for him will never allow me to turn him away.

My faith, and the Sacred Word tells me that God's love is even greater than mine. It also tells me that we as Church are called to mirror that great love to the world.

While its true that many quotes from scripture could be used to grasp at the kind of power that would help us to rationalize the hateful rejection of those we have deemed sinners. The Model Christ shows us, and the Sacred Word He speaks is and will always be the final word "Love your enemy, do good to those who hate you; forgive seven times seventy times; and Love one another, as I have loved you." This man who was God, and who loved his own, even when faced with their own sin and brokenness.

I don't wish to be contrary in anyway. I think most of this discussion is very good.

I'm interested particularly in your statements above as it impacts the inference about conservative Catholics. I personally stay out of the Conservative vs. Liberal dialogues for a variety of reasons, not the least of which is that I don't self-identify as either. Most people though would likely label me a conservative I think but I do believe that's inaccurate.

If openness is a word for Liberal, does it follow that your choice of identification is to the Liberal side because you find "conservative's" to be closed?

I'm not trying to set up a battle by any means....it's more a point of clarification. We as human beings often choose our sides based more on what something isn't rather than what it is. Your political leanings would normally place you in a conservative group, yet you self-identify as Liberal for what you perceive to be the better way.

I think many conservatives have chosen their side because of what it is not as well. I believe they tend to see Liberals as rebellious and would identify themselves as loyal.

It's interesting to me as an outsider to both worlds, that I see the strengths of God's Mercy in the Liberals and the strengths of God's Justice in the conservatives. That is not to say that both sides don't show some elements of both Mercy and Justice but the strengths are more evident. At the same time there are the human weaknesses of pride on both sides. I too share in that pride often I must admit which is why I probably don't self-identify as either.


Just a few thoughts on the divisions that we sometimes see and looking to see if there is truth in these ideas.

 

[Cura Animarum]

I don't know that I overtly defined either 'liberal' or 'conservative' terms at all. I do speak of myself as leaning more toward a 'liberal' view of things but that has far more to do with a large number of people both in the digital world and IRL telling me that I am or that I hold "Radical, rebellious, bleeding-heart liberal views".

If I say that I do not agree with condemning an individual to the flaming torture of Hell because I feel that something they've done or said or a particular lifestyle choice of theirs seems to have broken their relationship with Christ and Christ's Church (even though I cannot ever possibly know with any certainty the quality of any particular individual's relationship with Christ)...a more 'conservative' minded individual calls me a liberal.

If, on the other hand, I tell my son or daughter that they will not be allowed to have a member of the opposite sex in their room with the door closed, or that I do not agree with tattoos or piercings all over the body...or if, in response to a question I tell one of my parishioners that the Church's stance on stem-cell research, IVF, and abortion all revolve around the acknowledgment of the inherent dignity of the human person and that human life deserves to be protected in every form it takes, especially when it cannot speak up for it's own rights...then I am called a closed-minded conservative who represents everything that is wrong wth religion.

Personally I don't see as how I fall firmly in any easily labeled camp. My views tend to fall along the lines of those expressed in this series of articles I posted here a few days ago;

Liberal or Conservative; My Favorite Rolheiser articles on the subject

 

[Maggie893]

These look interesting.

I just read the first one and love this quote by T.S. Eliot

In T.S. Eliot's words: "The last temptation that's the greatest treason, is to do the right thing for the wrong reason." When our concern for truth, orthodoxy, justice, or morality comes out of a place of anger, bitterness, or judgement, we are no longer acting as disciples of Jesus, no matter how right the cause. No action rooted in bitterness, anger, jealousy, self-righteousness, or in a desire for revenge can ever justify itself in Jesus' name.

I have to get to church but I'll read the others later...thank you.

 

[Turkleton]

It reminds me of an on-going issue between us and our son. Since he was about 16 he's wanted to get a tatoo which, from the start my wife and I made clear we did not agree with. At the same time we acknowledged that, once he was 18 we would have little say in the matter.

Every now and then he comes to me with a new design idea and asks "What do you think of this?" or "What if I got something like this, over here?"

I just shrug my shoulders and tell him that he already knows what I think.

We've made it clear that we think its wrong I remind him of that whenever he brings it up looking for approval...but we still invite him to dinner and would do so even if he ever got one. He's our son, and we love him and while I may not agree with the choices he might make in his life, the deep love I have for him will never allow me to turn him away.

My faith, and the Sacred Word tells me that God's love is even greater than mine. It also tells me that we as Church are called to mirror that great love to the world.

While its true that many quotes from scripture could be used to grasp at the kind of power that would help us to rationalize the hateful rejection of those we have deemed sinners. The Model Christ shows us, and the Sacred Word He speaks is and will always be the final word "Love your enemy, do good to those who hate you; forgive seven times seventy times; and Love one another, as I have loved you." This man who was God, and who loved his own, even when faced with their own sin and brokenness.

I don't see where we are in disagreement. I do "love my enemy". I ask questions, answer and even argue points out of love. I don't look down upon others or hatefully reject others.

 

[Cura Animarum]

I don't see where we are in disagreement. I do "love my enemy". I ask questions, answer and even argue points out of love. I don't look down upon others or hatefully reject others.

That's terrific then.

 

[Ave Maria]

Good questions Turkleton!

 

[mg0086]

All I can say is...

That I strive to acheive the perfect balance of Justice and Mercy that the Catechism illustrates within its pages.

Liberal illustrates the mercy as the Church illustrates her justice...

I know it sounds confusing....but that's what I think about this point...

 

[seeker777]

Probably this thread should be deleted as against our rules.
korah

You wish to censor his questioning? It's a fair question.

 

[CaliforniaJosiah]

.

How is it possible to be a "liberal Catholic"?

I don't think so.

www.christianforums.com/t7320683/




.

 

[Azureknight 773]

Now, now, now stop fighting you two, this ain't right. And please pick a ton of ice when the water is extremely hot to drink, otherwise it will burn your throat. Just sayin it.

 

[Hairy Tic]

How is it possible to have such gross presuppositions? Have you no conception of what the word "liberal" means historically? Have you no conception that Liberal Catholic was a major movement of great men of the 19th Century that is nothing like the secularism you apparently assume it is now? Probably this thread should be deleted as against our rules.
korah

## Many people don't think historically - so they project one of the many meanings of the phrase onto parts of history where it does not apply


Being a liberal in Biblical studies does not mean one "must" be in favour of liberal economics, or abortion, or be a member of the Liberal Parties in the UK or Canada. Gladstone was a Liberal, but he was also a Christian, who tried very hard to make his politics reflect his faith. He was no secularist. Neither was a Liberal Catholic such as Chateaubriand - or Lord Acton

• http://www.victorianweb.org/religion/altholz/3.html

Taking a "liberal" stand on the vexed issue of the Papal States in the 19th century did not entail "liberal" views on the Bible. Some people are rather fond of a book entitled "Liberalism is a Sin", by a Spanish priest - it's a denunciation what in Spain was called Liberalism; a distinction of meaning that its modern admirers appear to ignore. Liberalism in Spain was a protest against clericalism & against a wealthy Church that did little to help the poor - unfortunately clericalism, Ultramontanism, refraining from criticism of the clergy, were all jumbled together & confused with Catholicism

 

[Izdaari Eristikon]

How liberal a Roman Catholic can be, I don't really know. I think I'll leave that to the RC members to hash out between themselves. But I just wanted to point out that not all Catholics are Roman Catholics.

 

[Hairy Tic]

How liberal a Roman Catholic can be, I don't really know. I think I'll leave that to the RC members to hash out between themselves. But I just wanted to point out that not all Catholics are Roman Catholics.

## Indeed not - some of them are Anglican, others are Orthodox, & some are Old

 

[Turkleton]

No need to be so PC with all of this. If you don't apply to the question there is no need to answer. I understand that the word liberal had different (though similar) meanings in different time periods and various situations. Though Ispecified I was referring to modern political liberalism.

 

[Hairy Tic]

These look interesting.

I just read the first one and love this quote by T.S. Eliot



I have to get to church but I'll read the others later...thank you.

## Unfortunately grossly unChristian conduct can always be defended as Christian by those who do it. What does one do after that ? Once evil has been "proved" to be loving, one might as well give up.

 

[Hairy Tic]

No need to be so PC with all of this. If you don't apply to the question there is no need to answer. I understand that the word liberal had different (though similar) meanings in different time periods and various situations. Though Ispecified I was referring to modern political liberalism.

## But MPL is no indicator of whether one is a doctrinal liberal. I'm a Tory politically, so I "should" (it seems) be a conservative religiously - but in many ways I'm no such thing. The two can't be conflated or identified. Some people say, "The devil was the first liberal", or (my favourite ultra-right assertion): "Hitler & Stalin were liberals". There's no reasoning with that people as deluded as that. People can be liberal politically & conservative or even Conservative.

 

[sealacamp]

Have you no conception of what the word "liberal" means historically?

Yes it means breaking away from tradition. Or changing the rules to something new. Sometimes that is good sometimes that is bad. These days what is being called new is really old, proven to be bad, yet embraced as progressive while it is really regressive and following the broad road to destruction. Maybe you didn't know that. And in the long run the narrow old road of God is the true road and one that Jesus reinforced. He didn't create a liberal new road if that is where you are going with this line of questioning you are off base. Perhaps you are not familiar with what the bible has to say about all of this. If you were it doesn't seem to me that you would propose such a question in the first place.

History merely repeats itself. It has all been done before. Nothing under the sun is truly new. Sometimes people say, “Here is something new!” But actually it is old; nothing is ever truly new. We don’t remember what happened in the past, and in future generations, no one will remember what we are doing now.

This is what the Lord says:
“Stop at the crossroads and look around.
Ask for the old, godly way, and walk in it.
Travel its path, and you will find rest for your souls.
But you reply, ‘No, that’s not the road we want!’
I posted watchmen over you who said,
‘Listen for the sound of the alarm.’
But you replied,
‘No! We won’t pay attention!’

Such is the faux path of liberalism.

Sealacamp

 

[Izdaari Eristikon]

No need to be so PC with all of this. If you don't apply to the question there is no need to answer. I understand that the word liberal had different (though similar) meanings in different time periods and various situations. Though Ispecified I was referring to modern political liberalism.

Well, I'm an Old Catholic (Utrecht) who happens to be classical liberal or libertarian. That's not conservative, but it's far from modern liberalism, though there is some overlap with both.

And to me, the opposite poles of politics are not about tradition vs. change, but about individual liberty under God vs. collectivism under various utopian visions, all of which I consider misguided and futile attempts to immanentize the eschaton.

(A tip o' the hat to Eric Voegelin )

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You and I are told increasingly that we have to choose between a left or a right. There is only an up or down: up to man's age-old dream -- the ultimate in individual freedom consistent with law and order -- or down to the ant heap of totalitarianism. And regardless of their sincerity, their humanitarian motives, those who would trade our freedom for security have embarked on this downward course. -- Ronald Reagan

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Theologically I'm pretty much the same kind of conservative as C.S. Lewis or N.T. Wright, both of whom I count as mentors.