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Let's say you have a free choice between A & B. You end up choosing A. Up until the time you actually make the choice, could you still have chosen B?
Not true. Up until the time Pete makes his choice, he can freely choose A or B. That was defined as a presupposition.
Then what happens if x becomes A on day 1 and y becomes B on day 3? Does x remain equal to A? Or does it change to B? If it changes to B, at what point in time does it change to B?
I am saying God knows if Pete would purposely contradict God's foreknowledge, and therefore would not share it. Like I said above, if God establishes x=A on day 1, then due to the presuppositions, Pete will freely choose y=A.Are you saying God won't tell Pete what A/B choice he'll later make because Pete could choose the contrary choice?
As two of the presuppositions were that God can do anything and knows everything, then what exactly happens if God establishes x=A on day 1 and Pete establishes y=B on day 3?
That is why there is a conflict. If Pete can freely make his choice, then y has no value prior to Pete making his choice. But if God is fully omniscient, then y does have a value prior to Pete making his choice. Therefore, either there cannot be free will or there cannot be omniscience.I must mention for the third time, you keep ignoring God's omniscience. That was also defined as a presupposition. Up until Pete makes his choice he can freely choose A or B, but that doesn't change the fact that God in his omniscience knows what Pete's choice will be.
What if x is written down on a sheet of paper prior to the point in time y is established. Since you are contending that x must be equal to y, then what happens if the sheet of paper is shown to Pete before he determines the value of y? Please explain if Pete has a free choice to make y equal to A or B, what would force him to make the value of y be equal to the value of x.Several times you have asked "What if" and inserted a scenario where God makes an incorrect prophecy. Herein lies the problem. God will not be incorrect, to suggest it means he is not omniscient or he chooses to be wrong. Both have been established as false, that's why I reminded you of what LostMarbles said. This is why asking "what happens if x becomes A on day 1 and y becomes B on day 3" is erroneous, because if x becomes A on day 1, y will not become B on day 3, it will become A. Because God will not make an incorrect prophecy.
If it is presupposed that Pete can freely choose either A or B, then y could equal A or B. If x has a value established prior to the time y has a value established, then Pete's choice could cause y to not equal x.I am saying God knows if Pete would purposely contradict God's foreknowledge, and therefore would not share it. Like I said above, if God establishes x=A on day 1, then due to the presuppositions, Pete will freely choose y=A.
If Pete can freely choose, then he could choose either A or B (we'll call this choice y) - regardless of whether or not God knows what he'll choose. That's why there is an inherent conflict between omniscience and free will.Pete can freely choose, God can do anything and knows everything, therefore God will know what Pete freely chooses before it happens.
That is why there is a conflict. If Pete can freely make his choice, then y has no value prior to Pete making his choice. But if God is fully omniscient, then y does have a value prior to Pete making his choice. Therefore, either there cannot be free will or there cannot be omniscience.
What if x is written down on a sheet of paper prior to the point in time y is established. Since you are contending that x must be equal to y, then what happens if the sheet of paper is shown to Pete before he determines the value of y? Please explain if Pete has a free choice to make y equal to A or B, what would force him to make the value of y be equal to the value of x.
If it is presupposed that Pete can freely choose either A or B, then y could equal A or B. If x has a value established prior to the time y has a value established, then Pete's choice could cause y to not equal x.
But just to be sure we're on the same page:
x = The A/B value God knows Pete will choose
y = The A/B choice Pete chooses
Which has a value assigned to it first - x or y?
If Pete can freely choose, then he could choose either A or B (we'll call this choice y) - regardless of whether or not God knows what he'll choose. That's why there is an inherent conflict between omniscience and free will.
I only assume Pete has a free choice between Wheaties and Cheerios.
If God cannot make an incorrect prophecy, then either:
A) He is incapable of making a prophecy relating to a future freely made decision by a free will agent
B) What appear to be unimpeded freely made decisions weren't really unimpeded & freely made. In other words, anything that appears to be a free will agent is really an automaton.
Pete can be a free will agent able to chose Cheerios and Wheaties and God can still know which he is going to chose. There is no reason to assume God is going to make a mistake.Because one of the presuppositions is that Pete is a free will agent and can freely choose Cheerios or Wheaties - regardless of what anyone else thinks he will choose.
If God can do anything, then he can make an incorrect prophecy.
It only works if God does not know what the choice is going to be, but if God does know your analogy does not work.Your assumptions are incorrect. When x (God's knowledge of y) occurs, y (Pete's freely made A/B choice) hasn't yet been established. If x is established prior to y being established, and y is made freely, then x cannot change as a result of what y is. So if x is A and Pete chooses B, then x does not equal y and God's foreknowledge has been compromised.
Not true. If Pete is forced to choose y so it is equal to x, then his choice hasn't been freely made. In order for Pete's choice to be freely made, he will be able to choose y so that it may be equal to x or so that it won't be equal to x.
Remember, if x is established before y, then x cannot change. You cannot have x precede y and simultaneously y precede x.
Again I agree with you. There may be many different 'planes' of reality. I hold the belief that it may even be possible for the laws of physics, time, ect, to even be found to be differnt in our own plane of exsistance. Who knows? Have we discovered all the laws of physics? Do we know everything?
But on the part where you belive that free will is an illusion, I belive that cheapens Christ's life, and death. The gospel becomes a lie if only a few chosen can recive it. What happens to the free gift of God which is grace through Christ Jesus to all who recive him, if it is unatainable? This flies in the face of 'redemmed by grace'. Why did Jesus die then? One would think God could just pick and choise without comming to earth to die at the hands of his own creation. None of this makes any sense at all from a bibical gospel point of veiw.
This is an intresting point of veiw, and I have actualy read on the subject studying Ivan Pavlov concerning nurture vrs nature. Pavlov came up with the term of conditional reflex, meaning a learned behavioral trait. He was able to condition both dogs, and hummans to respond to certian stimuli in detreminable, and recordable responses. However, I still believe the idividual taxom in question, being either a dog, humman, or otherwise is the determinig factor. For example, if you take a tiger cub from birth, never having know the wild, and raise it in your house. You will be living with a wild tiger in your house. Not matter what you do you cannot retrain DNA to act another way. We are mankind, and no matter what we will act like wise. So with that being said I believe that eviromental factors are not the deciding force on who we become. God may influence us, but we must choise to 'become' anything
Agreed. But the question I have is what do you think his plan is? Dommination?
Isa 42:5 Thus saith God the LORD, he that created the heavens, and stretched them out; he that spread forth the earth, and that which cometh out of it; he that giveth breath unto the people upon it, and spirit to them that walk therein:
Isa 42:6 I the LORD have called thee in righteousness, and will hold thine hand, and will keep thee, and give thee for a covenant of the people, for a light of the Gentiles;
In the world of mankind: He gives breath to the people upon it, not only air to breathe in, but the breath of life itself and he gives spirit, the powers and faculties of a rational soul, and mind to those that walk therein. Now this is prefixed to God's covenant with the Messiah, and the commission given him, not only to show that he has authority to make such a covenant and give such a commission, but that the design of God's work of redemption was to maintain the honour of the Creator, and to restore man to the allegiance he owes to God as his Maker. This is a bond, a union of God with his creation, not a dictation and, and, and God has given his creation the commision to be a light to the gentiles. He's not forceing the gentiles. It is also written that by the foolishness of preaching,God srpeads the gospel. God has given us all the resources to make a decsion.
True to a point. We have the right to not listen to God's call. we can refuse the teachings just like the parable of the seeds on hard soil. Grow quickly, than fade away.
Why did Jesus go threw so much crap for nothing? Why did he Preach the sermon on the mount, teach parables, teach us to pray if it is meaningless?
I cannot grasp the theroy of predestination.
First of all, we are the creation, not the creator.... our own points of veiw are meanningless. Our opinons are worthless assumptions, nothing more than the filty rags of our works.
Second, you have absolutly no basis at all to do with the credibility of God. None.
If you look into it you will find that he has sent us the holy spirit as a guide, and a teacher to help us with life. Jesus testify's, us to the Father, claiming us for himself by the promise of God bought by his own blood. The father holds fast to his word, keeping his covanents with us and answering our please.
So you are saying Pete cannot make a free choice between A & B. You are saying he will decide whichever one is the same as x. Therefore, I'd like to know what will happen if Pete attempts to choose y to be a value other than what x is?The problem is y hasn't received a value yet. God did not give y the value, only Pete can give y the value. God merely knows what Pete will value y as, being omniscient. To say God gave y the value implies he is forcing Pete's choice. He is not. There is a difference between God knowing what will happen, and deciding what will happen.
It doesn't matter who wrote down the value of x. All that matters is that it is documented so it can be objectively measured prior to the value of y being established.Who wrote down what x is? Did God? Or did God tell someone else to write it down and show it to Pete? The point is if God allowed Pete to know the foreknowledge, it must be because he knows Pete will choose that y is equal to x. Because God is omniscient, he knows what will happen. He would not tell Pete that he will choose y=x unless Pete actually was going to choose y=x. He wouldn't lie to Pete.
By that logic, Pete cannot make a free will decision between A & B.I know Pete can freely choose A or B, and also that y could not equal to x. I'm saying if God knows that it will be y=x, then it will be y=x. The first to be assigned value is the x of course, since it occurs in time before y does.
The conflict is x is given a value of A or B prior to y being given a value of A or B by an independent free will agent, then x & y cannot always be equal to each other.Where is the conflict here? Pete can freely choose A or B regardless of whether or not God knows what he'll choose, right? Then it follows that God's omniscience has no effect on Pete's free will.
Then what happens if God knows you're going to choose Cheerios and you instead attempt to choose Wheaties?Or C) God knows what you are going to chose using your free will before you make your choice.
So you are saying Pete cannot make a free choice between A & B. You are saying he will decide whichever one is the same as x. Therefore, I'd like to know what will happen if Pete attempts to choose y to be a value other than what x is?
It doesn't matter who wrote down the value of x. All that matters is that it is documented so it can be objectively measured prior to the value of y being established.
By that logic, Pete cannot make a free will decision between A & B.
The conflict is x is given a value of A or B prior to y being given a value of A or B by an independent free will agent, then x & y cannot always be equal to each other.
If God is omniscient, there are only two options:
x=A, y=A
x=B, y=B
The question isn't whether or not God can be made wrong, it's whether or not x allows for the freedom of y.
I don't believe there is. If you say that x is always equal to y, then once x has been decided, then y has been etched in stone. x, then must be the cause of y. Unless God was ignorant of the future at the beginning of creation, then everything y ever will be is the result of His x. But if He was ignorant, then there is no x.
I think I understand now. We only have free will within the constraints God gives us. So not "absolute" free will. Is that right?
You completely evaded the question. Once again: Therefore, I'd like to know what will happen if Pete attempts to choose y to be a value other than what x is?No I am saying Pete can make a free choice between A or B, and God will know what it is. The problem either ignoring God's omniscience or assuming God is forcing Pete's choice.
For example you ask "What will happen if Pete attempts to choose y to be a value other than what x is?" This implies that Pete has foreknowledge of his choice shared by God, and that God is not omniscient and did not know Pete was going to attempt something different. But this is not true. Because God is omniscient, if he shares his foreknowledge with Pete, it is because he knows Pete is going to make that choice of his own free will. Pete is not suddenly going to have a change in personality and decide to rebel against God in a spur of the moment. God knows Pete's heart, he knows what choices Pete will make. The idea that Pete would make a sudden contradictory choice is a human invention, it is not even worth God thinking about. But this does not mean he decides the choices Pete will make.
The importance of the writing down of x is that God permitted it to happen. This means he knows that Pete would not violate the foreknowledge if he knew it. It is not a magic piece of paper that seals Pete's choice.
x & y cannot always be equal because Pete can freely choose y to be A or B. You can't have x be a function of y and simultaneously y be a function of x. Pick your poison.Where is the conflict here? Why do you say x and y cannot always be equal? In human terms it is very unlikely that we would always know what will happen in the future, but it is not unreasonable that an omniscient God would. One main reason we would be constrained by omniscience is that we are bound by time, we are not in the future and cannot know what is there. But God is not bound by time, he created it. For him to say x will equal y is the same as saying x does equal y or x did equal y, because God is not just perceiving it as yet to happen, but also as happening and already happened. It makes no sense to equate a timeless omniscient perception with mind control.
As there is a conflict, then we know either free will or omniscience is not real. Since I have never observed omniscience and have had first hand experience of free will, it must be omniscience that is not real.An underlying theme I have seen in your responses is that for us to have free will, God must make incorrect prophecy. Not just that it's possible he could, but that he must. But why?
Is x a function of y or is y a function of x?If God is omniscient, there are only two options:
x=A, y=A
x=B, y=B
The question isn't whether or not God can be made wrong, it's whether or not x allows for the freedom of y.
I don't believe there is. If you say that x is always equal to y, then once x has been decided, then y has been etched in stone. x, then must be the cause of y. Unless God was ignorant of the future at the beginning of creation, then everything y ever will be is the result of His x. But if He was ignorant, then there is no x.
When I see all these numbers and letters, turning the situation into mathematical form, it really starts to lose me after a while. It's just requires too much energy to keep up with it.
But I wanted to reiterate what I said earlier real quick.
x=A, y=A
x=B, y=B
To us, there are two or more possible outcomes for each choice we make. But like I said, y will always be equal to x. So then, in reality there is only one possibility: x=A, y=A. It's just that we don't know what A is going to be until after the fact.
If x and y are always the same, then the above can be simplified, and it will always be true.
x=y
I could say, I have the choice to choose blue Kool-Aid or red Kool-Aid. And whichever one I choose will be the one God knew I would take. But this is like saying that the planet Saturn has the same name as the now dissolved car company Saturn: it's backwards. My choosing did not lead to God knowing. God's knowledge came first, then my choosing.
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