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Let's say it's day 1 and Pete has not yet made his day 3 A/B choice. Pete could choose A or he could choose B. If God knows he will choose A, but Pete freely chooses B, then what happens to God's foreknowledge that Pete would choose A?
Your situation is akin to asking what would happen if an immovable object meets an irresistible force. It's a nonsensical question, because there's no universe in which that condition could arise.
Similarly, there's no universe where an omniscient god could be wrong about knowing something. The bottom line is that if a god knows that a person will choose A, they choose A.
If foreknowledge is dependent on or determined by our actions, then it cannot exist infallibly prior to our actions being taken.
Well, let's say it's Monday and God has infallible knowledge that Pete will choose 'A' on Wednesday. Since Pete hasn't yet made his Wednesday decision of A or B, he could still potentially choose 'B'. If he chooses 'B', then either God's infallible foreknowledge becomes fallible or his foreknowledge retroactively changes - in which case, his foreknowledge of Monday would change come Wednesday from 'A' to 'B'. If that occurred, then if asked what God knew on Monday, would it have been 'A' or 'B'?
What you seem to be implying here is that from the perspective of god there can´t be such a thing as freewill.The whole issue, it seems, is that your misunderstanding of "foreknowledge" is anthropomorphic. Your supposition that God cannot know X infallibly "before" it happens, is dependent upon this presupposition: that God experiences time as we do. Hopefully I can help with what is my understanding of the issue. "Foreknowledge," is a word used to convey a much greater reality about the nature of God.
But consider this. We would use the language to explain an experience of God as "here" or "there" while this is actually only legitimate from our perspective of space. We have an anthropomorphic misapprehension of what is spatially "present," to God. What we call "here" and "there" is actually to God only here.
LIKEWISE: what we would describe as having happened "earlier" or going to happen "later" are from God's eternal perspective all presently happening now.
And so you have Jesus saying "before Abraham was I am." Now even if we could make a similar statement (because of our finite experience of time) we could at most say before abraham was I was. But he says I am, which conveys the ever presence of the past and (in other scriptures) the future.
And so His knowledge no more fixes it than if He were simply watching it presently.
All things are open unto the eyes of Him with whom we have to do.
Cieza, I believe this your contention:When I say free will, I mean the freedom to make an unimpeded free choice between two or more things. That type of free choice is completely incompatible with omniscience & omnipotence.
I believe you are making the fallacious connection of knowledge equating to causation. God's foreknowledge does not make events happen, and just because God foreknows something doesn't necessarily mean He intended it to happen. The foreknowledge of God simply means that He is consciously aware of the future, or in other words God knows what will happen based on our behavior.But where the fish swim are all in God's foreknowledge. He intends the fish to swim this way and that way. If God knows before hand what the fish will do and he is the creator then he created the fish to do what he knew beforehand they would do. God wills his entire creation. To say something has will apart from his own is like saying that possibly someone can interfere with his will, alter it, change it. God has complete control over his creation as he wills it.
There is one question that one who claims God has created everything has never answered that hopefully you can. If God created literally everything, does that mean that men did not really build skyscrapers or buildings? Cars or trains? Wouldn't we have seen God creating those things?If God created everything then he also created my will. Scripture tells us that there is nothing that exists that he did not make. He is the creator of everything that exists. And the will is something that exists. My thoughts are something that exist. My actions are something that exist. Everything that is came from God, he created it, made it, brought it into existence.
If you do not believe God gave man free will, then I also must ask what you make of Genesis 2:16: "And the LORD God commanded the man, “You are free to eat from any tree in the garden; but you must not eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, for when you eat from it you will certainly die"?The reason why people believe God gave them free will is because they have no connection to God. They don't see themselves as entirely made by God; but separate from their creator for a variety of reasons.
I understand that you think knowledge = intent but I don't see that as the case. Simply repeating yourself does nothing to further show why you think that, just makes for arguing in a circle. So, without repeating yet again that you think foreknowledge equates to God's will, can you support the idea?With Adam and Eve God had the foreknowledge that they would choose to eat from the tree of knowledge between good and evil. God made the tree knowing full well that they would choose to eat from the tree. He could not have made the tree but it was his will that Adam and eve choose the tree or else he would not have made the tree. He knew they would transgress and this was his will that they do so.
Again not necessarily, no. If foreknowledge exists prior to the event actually happening, all foreknowledge is is God being consciously aware of what is going to happen, not that the foreknowledge makes the event happen. If God foreknows of someone murdering another, yet has already commanded against murder, then how can you say that what God foreknows (being murder) is part of His plan? Murdering is against the will of God, so to say that just because He has foreknowledge of murder means it is part of His plan seems contradicting.If foreknowledge exists before the actual creation of the matter does that not become the will of creation? Does that not become God's plan?
So are you denying that murder is against the will of God? Murder happens and God has commanded against it and obviously foreknows of it, so according to this logic how does murder occur? Your argument doesn't seem to logically follow...God intends to allow that foreknowledge to occur. If it was against the will of God he would not allow it to occur. My argument here is that foreknowledge is part of God's creative will. God thought it up first before it happened therefore he created it.
Sin is not something that could be created as it is not of physical or material substance such as with the earth when it was created. Thus, to say that sin is something 'created' by God is to commit the fallacy of equivocation. That is why if you says "God created sin," they actually do mean that God committed sin as to 'create' would be the incorrect terminology. What you mean is that God caused sin, which unfortunately for you does mean that God sinned. A Holy God has nothing to do with the origin of sin, which again why your argument doesn't honestly follow.God created sin. Because there is not one thing made that he did not make--that is in scripture. God didn't sin, he merely created it. I mean what is the nature of holy God if it is not reflected in fire. God created everything in creation, good and evil--that is reflective of a holy God.
You say the buildings were in though with God before it was with man yet mere conception again does not equate to causation. In other words, that God had perceived of buildings is not the same as saying God directly created the building. You said God created everything which would encompass the buildings, so my original question still stands.The thought of the empire state building was with God before it was with man. It was the Spirit of God that moves all things that directed man to build skyscrapers, cars or trains. God is in all of his creation, not separate from it. God works in all things even our wills. We don't have to profess faith for God to be working in our wills. Everything is made from God and comes from God. There is nothing that exists that is apart from God.
Aside from this, honestly the rest of your post did not even come close to addressing our earlier conversation, but if you want to ignore that part then that's on you.Foreknowledge with God is the same as creation.
Aside from this, honestly the rest of your post did not even come close to addressing our earlier conversation, but if you want to ignore that part then that's on you.
It is not the same. Again, foreknowledge is the attribute of being consciously aware of what will happen in the future, not actually creating what will happen in the future. I am not saying what God foreknows He doesn't create, but rather as God foreknows everything it does not follow that He creates everything He has foreknown. Once more, that would be to equivocate the meaning of 'create.'
I stopped here because this is your assumption that for some unknown reason why you think I am assuming. First, what lead you to conclude this??
I'll let you know now though that I do not believe God is objective.
It is not the same. Again, foreknowledge is the attribute of being consciously aware of what will happen in the future, not actually creating what will happen in the future.
If he foreknows everything at/before the moment of creation, then there is no difference. He has essentially created every event in the total future of the universe at one single instant: the moment of creation.I am not saying what God foreknows He doesn't create, but rather as God foreknows everything it does not follow that He creates everything He has foreknown.
:æ:;58635024 said:
But when you believe that God simultaneously knew what the future would be as a consequence of his deciding to create precisely this universe, it follows that he willingly and deliberately caused that future.
:æ:;58635024 said:
For simplicity and illustration, consider that God could make a decision like this: create universe X which he foreknows will include future events A, B and C, or create universe Y which he foreknows will include future events D, E and F. When God decides which universe to create, he has also decided to create those future events which he foreknows will follow from his creation. Deciding to create universe X instead of Y is tantamount to creating events A, B and C, since he knows they must follow from his decision.
At the moment of creation the only thing that is created is probably matter, not the total of the future. God foreknowing what will happen is not saying that what He foreknows 'exists' right then as what He foreknows has not actually taken place yet. The event foreknown does not 'exist' as an actuality or reality, as reality is the state of things as they actually exist rather than how they will or are going to exist.:æ:;58635024 said:
If he foreknows everything at/before the moment of creation, then there is no difference. He has essentially created every event in the total future of the universe at one single instant: the moment of creation.
It actually does not follow. You're confusing correlation with causation. Foreknowledge is correlated to the future in that God knows what will happen. The future that God foreknows is the one where we choose to act how we please.
The only thing absent from your argument is your support for the idea that foreknowledge = causation.
How does mere knowledge make something happen?
Unless it is your contention that everyone has volitional input on God's decision to create universe X, then you're merely begging the question as I outlined above. I cannot choose event A' if God already knows infallibly that A will occur. Calling it a choice doesn't make it one.That doesn't make sense as knowledge is not a causal relation. If God foreknows of universe x and decides to create that universe, A, B, and C are all things we choose to engage in. God does not physically cause us to engage in A, B, or C.
That's like saying a perfect marksman is not responsible for the trajectories of his perfectly fired bullets because simply knowing with 100% certainty where his bullets would travel does not mean he caused his bullets to go where he has aimed them.Therefore knowledge =/= causation. To say otherwise is to argue erroneously from the post hoc.
If the future is not created simultaneous with the rest of the universe, then what is it that God knows?At the moment of creation the only thing that is created is probably matter, not the total of the future.
God foreknowing what will happen is not saying that what He foreknows 'exists' right then as what He foreknows has not actually taken place yet. The event foreknown does not 'exist' as an actuality or reality, as reality is the state of things as they actually exist rather than how they will or are going to exist.
Here's something about Christianity that doesn't add up right to me:
Christians have said that God knows everything and can do anything. That means he knows the future or events which have yet to occur. He would therefore know today that a human being (we'll call him Pete) is going to choose 'A' instead of 'B'. However, since Pete has an unimpeded free will decision up until the time he makes his decision of either A or B, Pete could potentially choose B after God knew he was going to choose A. Can someone reconcile this?
I believe it is you who is question beginning, for if it is not ourselves that makes choices contingent on our desires, then who does make our choices? By way of foreknowing our choices God does not choose what we do for us. We choose ourselves.:æ:;58643242 said:Ah, but it does follow, and you're begging the question. There is no choice if God already knows the future. All choices are merely illusions, lest it be possible for God's knowledge to be wrong, in which case it isn't knowledge at all.
It is not being disputed that God has infallible foreknowledge and so cannot be wrong about what He foreknows, but just because God foreknows our choices does not mean we cannot choose. Think about that statement, re-read it, and then respond. A, B, and C are no more an illusion than the physical universe x.:æ:;58643242 said:If God knows that A, B and C will happen as a consequence of his decision to create universe X as opposed to Y, then A, B and C cannot fail to happen, so a person cannot choose A' or B' or C' despite any illusions that he may.
:æ:;58643242 said:Creation with foreknowledge = causation.
:æ:;58643242 said:Unless it is your contention that everyone has volitional input on God's decision to create universe X, then you're merely begging the question as I outlined above. I cannot choose event A' if God already knows infallibly that A will occur. Calling it a choice doesn't make it one.
:æ:;58643242 said:That's like saying a perfect marksman is not responsible for the trajectories of his perfectly fired bullets because simply knowing with 100% certainty where his bullets would travel does not mean he caused his bullets to go where he has aimed them.
God knows everything from eternity and eternity is not the moment of creation. Again, the future of say for example me choosing A does not exist with the rest of the universe at the moment of creation as A is not a reality. Reality is the state of some affair as it actually exists, not as it is going to exist which is how God foreknows.:æ:;58643242 said:If the future is not created simultaneous with the rest of the universe, then what is it that God knows?
It would depend on what it means here to 'exist.' As noted above the event A foreknown does not 'exist' as an actuality when it is foreknown, but the event 'exist' in the mind of God, that is conceptually and consciously.:æ:;58643242 said:It does not make sense to say something is known which does not exist.
You would think so, wouldn't you? A good analogy I heard from another poster would appear as if it not is not so intelligent to assume such. Imagine a crystal ball that once looked into one could see the future. Say you look into it and see the future, yet it is not by looking that the future happens but because we make the future happen that it is foreknown.If the foreknowledge exists before the physical reality then wouldn't it be intelligent to assume that the physical reality originated from the foreknowledge?
Call it whatever you want. The thought yes, but God does not bring every thing He foreknows into existence. God does not create everything He foreknows. If He did, then He would create things presently just as He did with the earth and we would be able to observe them.We don't even have to call it foreknowledge. We can call it a divine thought. It is the thought that existed first. From the thought, God must bring what is in that thought into existence; therefore he is the creator.
God doesn't have to 'bring out' my actions in order for them to happen. Because God foreknows my actions they must occur no matter what. I bring out my actions which is what God foreknows, so essentially I bring out what God foreknows. God is the creator, but not by virtue of mere foreknowledge. It is just not sensible.In his thought is all your actions ands thoughts (your entire life). From his divine will he must bring out, into creation, your thoughts and actions (your entire life); therefore he is the creator.
I do not come from God directly. I come from my parents directly. I come from God's first created man and much earlier his ancestors. I am not saying I will myself into existence I am saying I was born into existence in a way. Yes we could say God foreknew of that but that doesn't mean by God foreknowing it I am created in the same way the earth or universe was.From him you come. Not you from yourself. The thought of you existed before you existed. Your origin is in the thought of God, therefore, you are created entirely. You didn't will yourself into existence. You began as a thought and God is the one who brought you out of his thoughts. Your life was in his thoughts and he brought your life out of his thoughts, therefore, he created you entirely. Your will was in his thought and he brought your will out of his thoughts, therefore, he created you entirely.
I believe it is you who is question beginning, for if it is not ourselves that makes choices contingent on our desires, then who does make our choices?
Wrong. I've already explained why this is wrong. Go back and re-read my argument, because it apparently did not sink in the first time.By way of foreknowing our choices God does not choose what we do for us. We choose ourselves.
That's precisely what it means, in fact. In order for real choice to exist, there must exist multiple real future possibilities. However, if more than one future were legitimately possible, then it means God's knowledge could be wrong, which is incompatible with infallible foreknowledge. Therefore either choice does not exist or infallible foreknowledge doesn't exist. You can't have both.It is not being disputed that God has infallible foreknowledge and so cannot be wrong about what He foreknows, but just because God foreknows our choices does not mean we cannot choose.
It is clear from this statement that you do not understand what my argument is saying. I've never suggested that events themselves are illusions. I've suggested that the appearance of choices are false appearance. To repeat myself: If God knows infallibly that I will do A, then it is impossible for me to do A' or A'' (these are alternatives to A which I might have had the choice of had it not been known that A was and must be the future). If God allegedly knows I will do A, then I cannot "choose" A' or A''. I do not have a choice.Think about that statement, re-read it, and then respond. A, B, and C are no more an illusion than the physical universe x.
Think of a crystal ball that can look into the future. Once we look into the crystal ball we see what is going to happen in the future, and it is not as if by way of looking that we make what we look at happen.
What we look at happens because those who we are looking at are choosing to act like such because that is how they wish to act.
SO WHAT??? We're talking about GOD here, genius. Unless you have some uncannily unique god-concept that does not describe god as being creator of the universe, then this point is utterly irrelevant.Yes creation and foreknowledge equate to causation, but without creation and merely foreknowledge as I have been saying, it would not equate to causation.
Yes He does. He created them the instant He created the universe and knew them.Even then not everything God foreknows He creates
so God does not cause everything to happen by way of merely foreknowing it.[/quote
]
Again, irrelevant.
THERE IS NO CHOICE. How can I make this any more clear to you? If God knows that tomorrow I will wake up at 7:30, then I can't choose to sleep in to 8:00 or else God's knowledge would be wrong. Do you see that, Poindexter?Again, it is you who begs the question: If you cannot choose to engage in A, then who does choose to?
It's actually far from saying that. Creation and foreknowledge equal causation, not just foreknowledge. Knowledge is not a causal relation as has been pointed out.
What does that have to do with God, seeing as how he actually is a creator and a foreknower?
If everything is known simultaneously, then all events must exist simultaneously.God knows everything from eternity and eternity is not the moment of creation.
It must in order for God to know it.Again, the future of say for example me choosing A does not exist with the rest of the universe at the moment of creation as A is not a reality.
There is no difference when everything is already known. The universe is just one long video tape. The whole movie exists at the same time on the same cassette, even if you only look at one part of it at a time.Reality is the state of some affair as it actually exists, not as it is going to exist which is how God foreknows.
This is completely wrong for reasons already given in plenty.It would depend on what it means here to 'exist.' As noted above the event A foreknown does not 'exist' as an actuality when it is foreknown, but the event 'exist' in the mind of God, that is conceptually and consciously.
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