How can I come back from being apostate? (Hebrews 6)

akaDaScribe said:

Just curious, did you ask God what to do?

I'm short on time, so I can't look it up right now, but there is a story about one of the prophets. His wife was being a continuous harlot but he took her back in the end. It was an example of God with Israel lived out. Obviously it has an impact on the relationship, but it does not have to be over. I have to tell you though, enough is enough. You need to assert your will in alignment with God because you are in a very dangerous place. No more games.

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Curtis697 said:

Can you expand on the last paragraph? Why you think that would prove beneficial to show love and mercy?

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akaDaScribe said:

I'm short on time, so I can't look it up right now, but there is a story about one of the prophets. His wife was being a continuous harlot but he took her back in the end. It was an example of God with Israel lived out.

Click to expand...

Curtis697 said:

I first want to start by requesting that you'll only answer if you have a solid foundation on bible doctrines. Saying to me, "well that doesn't apply to you because God is love He wouldn't send you to hell; or well you care so you're saved;" will not help at all, nor is biblically sound. I desperately need help, but I need the help to be correct..

I grew up in a Christian home. It was forced on me by my parents, so naturally I rebelled against it in my teenage years. I became an, "atheist." Well one day, when I just turned 18, my football coach offered salvation through Jesus Christ to me. I declined, but due to circumstances set up by God, accepted his offer a week later. I chose to believe in Jesus Christ as savior, but He was not yet Lord. But God did deliver me from the insurmountable situation. I have been told my whole life that I have a Call of God on my life.

God called me to bible college in 2013, and I obeyed Him and went. There, I was heavily trained in Bible Theology, as well as ministry. I received hands-on experience with how to be used by the Holy Ghost as a vessel. I preached to people, was persecuted, had demons manifest around me, laid hands on the sick and saw miraculous healings, ect. (even saw a broken bone snap back into play with a loud, "pop" sound.)
The problem was that It was never truly about the Lord to me. I wanted to marry a girl that went to the college with me. She was an idol to me, and I never truly put God before her. I would only serve God with her in mind as the end result. It was never about the Lord Jesus Christ.

By the end of my time in the bible college in 2015, she decided to be with someone else, whom she is to this day married to. I left the bible college as well as the call of God on my life. I said to God, something to the extent of, "Jesus, God, Holy Spirit, I'm done with you."
I then began sinning intentionally with the specific intent and purpose of silencing the voice of the Holy Ghost in my heart. Since then, I have slept with 30 women, and have fallen into a more sinful state than I ever was previously in. 7 times worse sounds about right.

Since then, I have found myself in a place of absolute despair. I have found no place in my heart for repentance of any sort. I feel no sorrow for my sins, cannot hear from God, continue living a wicked lifestyle.. ect. I'm telling you, I cannot seem to break through this problem. I cry out day and night, but my heart remains wicked. If i'm honest, I only care because I know hell is at stake.

I can almost believe with certainty that nobody currently alive has studied Hebrews 6 more than I have. I have read what seems to be every commentary, every translation, and every interpretation many times over. I probably have, without exaggeration, put 100 hours study into Hebrews 6:4-6. I know the Calvanist, Armenian, and pretty much every other interpretation, as well as the flaws behind them.
The only interpretation that is completely flawed throughout is the one that says, "the writer is describing that it is impossible to fall away and lose your salvation." - the bible does not speak in such complex verbiage. It is made to where the simple minded can understand. I'm no slouch when it comes to the English Language, but trying to read it in the way they describe is completely confusing and asinine.

That being said, I have decided, based on 100 hours of research that this verse means either one of two things.

1. If a person is indulged in the things of God to the extent that I was, and does not backslide, but rather consciously turns their back on the faith.. then it is impossible that they, under any circumstance, ever return to repentance. It's not that God wouldn't forgive them if they did, but rather that their hearts will never be able to be changed, due to their prior exposal to the things of God.

2. If a person falls away after being in the fulness of the things of God, then it is impossible for any man to lead them back to the way of righteousness. (There are numerous scriptures in the NT talking about leading people going astray, back to repentance.) This interpretation says that BECAUSE they are crucifying to themselves the Son of God afresh, it is impossible. They cannot be reasoned with. But if they decide to, then they can come back.
I truly do not know which one of these is correct.

Does anybody have anything that I have missed? Does anybody have insight or a first hand experience related to this? All answered are greatly appreciated.



If you have read enough and just want answer the quick question, then stop here.. but i'm going to further expand on the backstory in this situation, to show you how crazy it really is if you keep reading.


6 months after leaving bible college, I got into a motorcycle accident that almost killed me. Before leaving the house that night, I felt something nudging at me as if insisting me to put on my motorcycle helmet, which i never would normally wear. My life was spared because of that.
In the hospital, I felt what I believed to be the presence of God, flooding the hospital room. It was to the point where even a single thought about God would make me begin weeping uncontrollably. I can't say that I've had such easy access to His presence in my lifetime.
However, in the hospital, I decided that when I recovered, I would go back into the world, once more. And so I did. This time, darker and deeper than before.

A year and a half goes by, and I meet a girl in Rhode Island. The way we met was as if supernatural coincidence set it up. (I'll spare the details but please take my word for it)… If anyone had met a person in this manner, and had the connection with the other person the way that we did, and they didn't know better.. they would think that God matched us up together. But I know what the voice of Jesus is like, and it was not Him orchestrating this meeting. I knew it was Satan.
Anyways, when I flew to see her a month later, we were staying together in a hotel for a week, doing nothing good.. when she went to take a shower. When I was sitting on the bed, I suddenly had a vision: I saw myself, with her. I saw in the vision, her distracting me... and hell was beneath us. I saw a large black arm rise out of hell, grab me, and pull me into hell. The vision was so profound and intense that it made my body physically jump, though I carried on in my life without paying any mind to it.
A year later, her and I broke up. I thought to myself, "well, at least the vision didn't come to pass." But, lo and behold; 6 month later, due to supernatural circumstance, we began speaking again, and ended up getting back together.
Well, my spirit man was constantly eating at me about this.. I could not shake the vision I had of me going to hell a year prior.
So I began to pray, more fervently than I have ever prayed before: With tears and screaming, I said "Jesus, if I'm going to end up fulfilling the vision by being with her, at least make it to where I know I'm on the way to hell without a shadow of a doubt!!"
The next morning I woke up to a text from my most radical Christian friend, who knows nothing about me. the text says the following message that I'm going to copy and paste:

"I felt God told me to anoint myself with oil and then to sit down and listen. I did so, and immediately I heard the word "friend". I continued to listen and set my heart upon Him, when I began to see a vision. It was you, walking behind a girl. I couldn't see her face at first, but only her back. She wore a long dress that followed behind her. She seemed to be young and beautiful. Delicacies like candy and color objects followed close to her.

I saw you and it seemed you were drawn to her, as if you wanted to be with her. You were attracted to her and had a desire to engage with her. You got close and even tried to touch her dress and even smell it; it seemed you would even taste it if you could.

The girl continued to walk with her back to me until I came closer to her front. I then saw her face and it looked like that of a living corpse, even a hideous insect. There was obvious evil and wickedness about her. She then turned to you and grabbed you and killed you in front of me. She left the scene and all I saw was your grave.

I was then taken to another vision in which I saw you with God. In this scene you had refused the woman and were drawn to the Lord. He showed you creation and brought you through mountains and valleys. You were both friends. He brought you before many people and you proclaimed the message of salvation to them. You were enraptured by Him and He with you.

In this scene I have just mentioned, you were consumed with love for God and it did not matter that you were single. Marriage was not even on your mind. You were fulfilled in your relationship with Jesus Christ. "

Terror struck my soul upon reading this text message. I contacted her and told her that we were over, and that I would never speak to her again. I also told her why. She was very understanding.. and it was deeply hurtful to both of us.
I, however, believe that I felt an absolute assurance from the Holy Ghost that I was a child of God at that point. I felt a peace beyond understanding, despite the immense pain, and breaking of my willpower this burdened me with.
The following 3 to 4 nights, I began pleading with God that He would allow me to be with her without it taking me to hell. I told God how much I loved her. I told God, "even if she isn't the best you have for me, I want to be with her. I love her." I talked to her about all of this and she ended up one night, saying a prayer to give her life to the Lord, and began taking it upon herself to read the word for hours on end, and pray. However, I was skeptical that it may have been a false conversion, just to get me back.

While I was seeking the answer.. I BELIEVE to have had the Lord say this to me... "I will allow you to marry her without it taking you to hell. However, if you do, you will never be able to fulfill the calling I have place upon your life."

I chose to marry her. It felt like I was doing the wrong thing, but I went through with it.
Now you're pretty much caught up to where I'm currently at.

What are your thoughts? Does Hebrews 6 describe the reason why I keep falling back into darkness, and just have not been able to truly repent?
Please, any advice is helpful. God bless.

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HTacianas said:

I have to say first, both of your interpretations of Hebrews 6 are, as you said of others', flawed. As you also said, the bible is not complicated, but it gets complicated when we hear others trying to shoehorn their own tradition to fit into the bible.

As Hebrews 6 says, "it is impossible". That means impossible to renew a person to repentance...after they fall away. Salvation is a gift given only once, according to the bible.

During the last couple of Roman persecutions against the Church, there were scores of Christians, both laymen and clergy, who renounced Christ (in the most horrendous of words) and burned incense to the Roman gods to escape either death, torture, or forfeiture of their property. They had "fallen away" of their own accord. They did not "persevere to the end".

After the Roman persecutions ended, the question came up as to what to do with those who had lapsed, known as the lapsis, who then wanted to return to the Church. One camp held that, according to Hebrews 6, it was impossible to renew them once again to repentance, therefore they were excommunicated eternally.

The other camp held that the mercy of God, acting through the Church, should allow the lapsis to rejoin the Church after a period of penance. Penance included standing outside the doors to the Church and begging forgiveness of those going in, often lasting for seven to ten years.

In the end, the Church set aside Hebrews 6, in favor of mercy, and allowed the lapsis to return.

Now, we are in the position of choosing between scripture, in this case Hebrews 6, and the Tradition of the Church. The interpretation of Hebrews 6, and its application to the Church, are best left to the Church.

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Curtis697 said:

I first want to start by requesting that you'll only answer if you have a solid foundation on bible doctrines. Saying to me, "well that doesn't apply to you because God is love He wouldn't send you to hell; or well you care so you're saved;" will not help at all, nor is biblically sound. I desperately need help, but I need the help to be correct..

I grew up in a Christian home. It was forced on me by my parents, so naturally I rebelled against it in my teenage years. I became an, "atheist." Well one day, when I just turned 18, my football coach offered salvation through Jesus Christ to me. I declined, but due to circumstances set up by God, accepted his offer a week later. I chose to believe in Jesus Christ as savior, but He was not yet Lord. But God did deliver me from the insurmountable situation. I have been told my whole life that I have a Call of God on my life.

God called me to bible college in 2013, and I obeyed Him and went. There, I was heavily trained in Bible Theology, as well as ministry. I received hands-on experience with how to be used by the Holy Ghost as a vessel. I preached to people, was persecuted, had demons manifest around me, laid hands on the sick and saw miraculous healings, ect. (even saw a broken bone snap back into play with a loud, "pop" sound.)
The problem was that It was never truly about the Lord to me. I wanted to marry a girl that went to the college with me. She was an idol to me, and I never truly put God before her. I would only serve God with her in mind as the end result. It was never about the Lord Jesus Christ.

By the end of my time in the bible college in 2015, she decided to be with someone else, whom she is to this day married to. I left the bible college as well as the call of God on my life. I said to God, something to the extent of, "Jesus, God, Holy Spirit, I'm done with you."
I then began sinning intentionally with the specific intent and purpose of silencing the voice of the Holy Ghost in my heart. Since then, I have slept with 30 women, and have fallen into a more sinful state than I ever was previously in. 7 times worse sounds about right.

Since then, I have found myself in a place of absolute despair. I have found no place in my heart for repentance of any sort. I feel no sorrow for my sins, cannot hear from God, continue living a wicked lifestyle.. ect. I'm telling you, I cannot seem to break through this problem. I cry out day and night, but my heart remains wicked. If i'm honest, I only care because I know hell is at stake.

I can almost believe with certainty that nobody currently alive has studied Hebrews 6 more than I have. I have read what seems to be every commentary, every translation, and every interpretation many times over. I probably have, without exaggeration, put 100 hours study into Hebrews 6:4-6. I know the Calvanist, Armenian, and pretty much every other interpretation, as well as the flaws behind them.
The only interpretation that is completely flawed throughout is the one that says, "the writer is describing that it is impossible to fall away and lose your salvation." - the bible does not speak in such complex verbiage. It is made to where the simple minded can understand. I'm no slouch when it comes to the English Language, but trying to read it in the way they describe is completely confusing and asinine.

That being said, I have decided, based on 100 hours of research that this verse means either one of two things.

1. If a person is indulged in the things of God to the extent that I was, and does not backslide, but rather consciously turns their back on the faith.. then it is impossible that they, under any circumstance, ever return to repentance. It's not that God wouldn't forgive them if they did, but rather that their hearts will never be able to be changed, due to their prior exposal to the things of God.

2. If a person falls away after being in the fulness of the things of God, then it is impossible for any man to lead them back to the way of righteousness. (There are numerous scriptures in the NT talking about leading people going astray, back to repentance.) This interpretation says that BECAUSE they are crucifying to themselves the Son of God afresh, it is impossible. They cannot be reasoned with. But if they decide to, then they can come back.
I truly do not know which one of these is correct.

Does anybody have anything that I have missed? Does anybody have insight or a first hand experience related to this? All answered are greatly appreciated.



If you have read enough and just want answer the quick question, then stop here.. but i'm going to further expand on the backstory in this situation, to show you how crazy it really is if you keep reading.


6 months after leaving bible college, I got into a motorcycle accident that almost killed me. Before leaving the house that night, I felt something nudging at me as if insisting me to put on my motorcycle helmet, which i never would normally wear. My life was spared because of that.
In the hospital, I felt what I believed to be the presence of God, flooding the hospital room. It was to the point where even a single thought about God would make me begin weeping uncontrollably. I can't say that I've had such easy access to His presence in my lifetime.
However, in the hospital, I decided that when I recovered, I would go back into the world, once more. And so I did. This time, darker and deeper than before.

A year and a half goes by, and I meet a girl in Rhode Island. The way we met was as if supernatural coincidence set it up. (I'll spare the details but please take my word for it)… If anyone had met a person in this manner, and had the connection with the other person the way that we did, and they didn't know better.. they would think that God matched us up together. But I know what the voice of Jesus is like, and it was not Him orchestrating this meeting. I knew it was Satan.
Anyways, when I flew to see her a month later, we were staying together in a hotel for a week, doing nothing good.. when she went to take a shower. When I was sitting on the bed, I suddenly had a vision: I saw myself, with her. I saw in the vision, her distracting me... and hell was beneath us. I saw a large black arm rise out of hell, grab me, and pull me into hell. The vision was so profound and intense that it made my body physically jump, though I carried on in my life without paying any mind to it.
A year later, her and I broke up. I thought to myself, "well, at least the vision didn't come to pass." But, lo and behold; 6 month later, due to supernatural circumstance, we began speaking again, and ended up getting back together.
Well, my spirit man was constantly eating at me about this.. I could not shake the vision I had of me going to hell a year prior.
So I began to pray, more fervently than I have ever prayed before: With tears and screaming, I said "Jesus, if I'm going to end up fulfilling the vision by being with her, at least make it to where I know I'm on the way to hell without a shadow of a doubt!!"
The next morning I woke up to a text from my most radical Christian friend, who knows nothing about me. the text says the following message that I'm going to copy and paste:

"I felt God told me to anoint myself with oil and then to sit down and listen. I did so, and immediately I heard the word "friend". I continued to listen and set my heart upon Him, when I began to see a vision. It was you, walking behind a girl. I couldn't see her face at first, but only her back. She wore a long dress that followed behind her. She seemed to be young and beautiful. Delicacies like candy and color objects followed close to her.

I saw you and it seemed you were drawn to her, as if you wanted to be with her. You were attracted to her and had a desire to engage with her. You got close and even tried to touch her dress and even smell it; it seemed you would even taste it if you could.

The girl continued to walk with her back to me until I came closer to her front. I then saw her face and it looked like that of a living corpse, even a hideous insect. There was obvious evil and wickedness about her. She then turned to you and grabbed you and killed you in front of me. She left the scene and all I saw was your grave.

I was then taken to another vision in which I saw you with God. In this scene you had refused the woman and were drawn to the Lord. He showed you creation and brought you through mountains and valleys. You were both friends. He brought you before many people and you proclaimed the message of salvation to them. You were enraptured by Him and He with you.

In this scene I have just mentioned, you were consumed with love for God and it did not matter that you were single. Marriage was not even on your mind. You were fulfilled in your relationship with Jesus Christ. "

Terror struck my soul upon reading this text message. I contacted her and told her that we were over, and that I would never speak to her again. I also told her why. She was very understanding.. and it was deeply hurtful to both of us.
I, however, believe that I felt an absolute assurance from the Holy Ghost that I was a child of God at that point. I felt a peace beyond understanding, despite the immense pain, and breaking of my willpower this burdened me with.
The following 3 to 4 nights, I began pleading with God that He would allow me to be with her without it taking me to hell. I told God how much I loved her. I told God, "even if she isn't the best you have for me, I want to be with her. I love her." I talked to her about all of this and she ended up one night, saying a prayer to give her life to the Lord, and began taking it upon herself to read the word for hours on end, and pray. However, I was skeptical that it may have been a false conversion, just to get me back.

While I was seeking the answer.. I BELIEVE to have had the Lord say this to me... "I will allow you to marry her without it taking you to hell. However, if you do, you will never be able to fulfill the calling I have place upon your life."

I chose to marry her. It felt like I was doing the wrong thing, but I went through with it.
Now you're pretty much caught up to where I'm currently at.

What are your thoughts? Does Hebrews 6 describe the reason why I keep falling back into darkness, and just have not been able to truly repent?
Please, any advice is helpful. God bless.

Click to expand...

Halbhh said:

Isn't this resolved by seeing/realizing that once true conversion in the heart happens, the person will willingly die for Christ?

In other words, those that didn't willingly die for Him hadn't yet converted fully in the heart yet, usually.

Therefore, they had not already been fully there, and so would be coming to Him for the first time -- in real spirit and in truth -- regardless of any appearances otherwise.

Therefore of course Hebrews 6 does not apply to such individuals.

Click to expand...

Curtis697 said:

I first want to start by requesting that you'll only answer if you have a solid foundation on bible doctrines. Saying to me, "well that doesn't apply to you because God is love He wouldn't send you to hell; or well you care so you're saved;" will not help at all, nor is biblically sound. I desperately need help, but I need the help to be correct..

I grew up in a Christian home. It was forced on me by my parents, so naturally I rebelled against it in my teenage years. I became an, "atheist." Well one day, when I just turned 18, my football coach offered salvation through Jesus Christ to me. I declined, but due to circumstances set up by God, accepted his offer a week later. I chose to believe in Jesus Christ as savior, but He was not yet Lord. But God did deliver me from the insurmountable situation. I have been told my whole life that I have a Call of God on my life.

God called me to bible college in 2013, and I obeyed Him and went. There, I was heavily trained in Bible Theology, as well as ministry. I received hands-on experience with how to be used by the Holy Ghost as a vessel. I preached to people, was persecuted, had demons manifest around me, laid hands on the sick and saw miraculous healings, ect. (even saw a broken bone snap back into play with a loud, "pop" sound.)
The problem was that It was never truly about the Lord to me. I wanted to marry a girl that went to the college with me. She was an idol to me, and I never truly put God before her. I would only serve God with her in mind as the end result. It was never about the Lord Jesus Christ.

By the end of my time in the bible college in 2015, she decided to be with someone else, whom she is to this day married to. I left the bible college as well as the call of God on my life. I said to God, something to the extent of, "Jesus, God, Holy Spirit, I'm done with you."
I then began sinning intentionally with the specific intent and purpose of silencing the voice of the Holy Ghost in my heart. Since then, I have slept with 30 women, and have fallen into a more sinful state than I ever was previously in. 7 times worse sounds about right.

Since then, I have found myself in a place of absolute despair. I have found no place in my heart for repentance of any sort. I feel no sorrow for my sins, cannot hear from God, continue living a wicked lifestyle.. ect. I'm telling you, I cannot seem to break through this problem. I cry out day and night, but my heart remains wicked. If i'm honest, I only care because I know hell is at stake.

I can almost believe with certainty that nobody currently alive has studied Hebrews 6 more than I have. I have read what seems to be every commentary, every translation, and every interpretation many times over. I probably have, without exaggeration, put 100 hours study into Hebrews 6:4-6. I know the Calvanist, Armenian, and pretty much every other interpretation, as well as the flaws behind them.
The only interpretation that is completely flawed throughout is the one that says, "the writer is describing that it is impossible to fall away and lose your salvation." - the bible does not speak in such complex verbiage. It is made to where the simple minded can understand. I'm no slouch when it comes to the English Language, but trying to read it in the way they describe is completely confusing and asinine.

That being said, I have decided, based on 100 hours of research that this verse means either one of two things.

1. If a person is indulged in the things of God to the extent that I was, and does not backslide, but rather consciously turns their back on the faith.. then it is impossible that they, under any circumstance, ever return to repentance. It's not that God wouldn't forgive them if they did, but rather that their hearts will never be able to be changed, due to their prior exposal to the things of God.

2. If a person falls away after being in the fulness of the things of God, then it is impossible for any man to lead them back to the way of righteousness. (There are numerous scriptures in the NT talking about leading people going astray, back to repentance.) This interpretation says that BECAUSE they are crucifying to themselves the Son of God afresh, it is impossible. They cannot be reasoned with. But if they decide to, then they can come back.
I truly do not know which one of these is correct.

Does anybody have anything that I have missed? Does anybody have insight or a first hand experience related to this? All answered are greatly appreciated.

If you have read enough and just want answer the quick question, then stop here.. but i'm going to further expand on the backstory in this situation, to show you how crazy it really is if you keep reading.

6 months after leaving bible college, I got into a motorcycle accident that almost killed me. Before leaving the house that night, I felt something nudging at me as if insisting me to put on my motorcycle helmet, which i never would normally wear. My life was spared because of that.
In the hospital, I felt what I believed to be the presence of God, flooding the hospital room. It was to the point where even a single thought about God would make me begin weeping uncontrollably. I can't say that I've had such easy access to His presence in my lifetime.
However, in the hospital, I decided that when I recovered, I would go back into the world, once more. And so I did. This time, darker and deeper than before.

A year and a half goes by, and I meet a girl in Rhode Island. The way we met was as if supernatural coincidence set it up. (I'll spare the details but please take my word for it)… If anyone had met a person in this manner, and had the connection with the other person the way that we did, and they didn't know better.. they would think that God matched us up together. But I know what the voice of Jesus is like, and it was not Him orchestrating this meeting. I knew it was Satan.
Anyways, when I flew to see her a month later, we were staying together in a hotel for a week, doing nothing good.. when she went to take a shower. When I was sitting on the bed, I suddenly had a vision: I saw myself, with her. I saw in the vision, her distracting me... and hell was beneath us. I saw a large black arm rise out of hell, grab me, and pull me into hell. The vision was so profound and intense that it made my body physically jump, though I carried on in my life without paying any mind to it.
A year later, her and I broke up. I thought to myself, "well, at least the vision didn't come to pass." But, lo and behold; 6 month later, due to supernatural circumstance, we began speaking again, and ended up getting back together.
Well, my spirit man was constantly eating at me about this.. I could not shake the vision I had of me going to hell a year prior.
So I began to pray, more fervently than I have ever prayed before: With tears and screaming, I said "Jesus, if I'm going to end up fulfilling the vision by being with her, at least make it to where I know I'm on the way to hell without a shadow of a doubt!!"
The next morning I woke up to a text from my most radical Christian friend, who knows nothing about me. the text says the following message that I'm going to copy and paste:

"I felt God told me to anoint myself with oil and then to sit down and listen. I did so, and immediately I heard the word "friend". I continued to listen and set my heart upon Him, when I began to see a vision. It was you, walking behind a girl. I couldn't see her face at first, but only her back. She wore a long dress that followed behind her. She seemed to be young and beautiful. Delicacies like candy and color objects followed close to her.

I saw you and it seemed you were drawn to her, as if you wanted to be with her. You were attracted to her and had a desire to engage with her. You got close and even tried to touch her dress and even smell it; it seemed you would even taste it if you could.

The girl continued to walk with her back to me until I came closer to her front. I then saw her face and it looked like that of a living corpse, even a hideous insect. There was obvious evil and wickedness about her. She then turned to you and grabbed you and killed you in front of me. She left the scene and all I saw was your grave.

I was then taken to another vision in which I saw you with God. In this scene you had refused the woman and were drawn to the Lord. He showed you creation and brought you through mountains and valleys. You were both friends. He brought you before many people and you proclaimed the message of salvation to them. You were enraptured by Him and He with you.

In this scene I have just mentioned, you were consumed with love for God and it did not matter that you were single. Marriage was not even on your mind. You were fulfilled in your relationship with Jesus Christ. "

Terror struck my soul upon reading this text message. I contacted her and told her that we were over, and that I would never speak to her again. I also told her why. She was very understanding.. and it was deeply hurtful to both of us.
I, however, believe that I felt an absolute assurance from the Holy Ghost that I was a child of God at that point. I felt a peace beyond understanding, despite the immense pain, and breaking of my willpower this burdened me with.
The following 3 to 4 nights, I began pleading with God that He would allow me to be with her without it taking me to hell. I told God how much I loved her. I told God, "even if she isn't the best you have for me, I want to be with her. I love her." I talked to her about all of this and she ended up one night, saying a prayer to give her life to the Lord, and began taking it upon herself to read the word for hours on end, and pray. However, I was skeptical that it may have been a false conversion, just to get me back.

While I was seeking the answer.. I BELIEVE to have had the Lord say this to me... "I will allow you to marry her without it taking you to hell. However, if you do, you will never be able to fulfill the calling I have place upon your life."

I chose to marry her. It felt like I was doing the wrong thing, but I went through with it.
Now you're pretty much caught up to where I'm currently at.

What are your thoughts? Does Hebrews 6 describe the reason why I keep falling back into darkness, and just have not been able to truly repent?
Please, any advice is helpful. God bless.

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HTacianas said:

For it not to apply to those who are fully Christian is to say that we don't know how a person becomes a Christian. A person can only be made a "partaker of the Holy Spirit" during their conversion. Once that is completed that person becomes a Christian.

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HTacianas said:

For it not to apply to those who are fully Christian is to say that we don't know how a person becomes a Christian.

Click to expand...

Samaritan Woman said:

Curtis697 -



It seems that you are pulling Hebrews 6:4-6 out of context which is quite common. To begin with, it is assumed by most scholars that the letter's recipients were Jewish Christians and/or Gentile Christians who were being drawn back into the practices and requirements of the Mosaic Law by the Judaizers which were nullified by Jesus' death and resurrection. Consider Hebrews 6:1-2 which precludes the warning of verses 4-6 -

Therefore leaving the elementary teaching about the Christ, let us press on to maturity, not laying again a foundation of repentance from dead works and of faith toward God, of instruction about washings and laying on of hands, and the resurrection of the dead and eternal judgment.

In other words, it can be inferred these immature believers were disregarding the basic doctrines of the faith in lieu of the Judaizer's false teachings .

While verse 6 does use the word “repentance”, it is often assumed to mean “salvation” thus inducing fear within those Christians leading a rebellious lifestyle that they have lost their salvation. However, “repentance” in the Greek has nothing to do with that; rather it means a “reversal of mind; abhorrence of one's past sins”. Additionally, consider Hebrews 6:7-8



For ground that drinks the rain which often falls on it and brings forth vegetation useful to those for whose sake it is also tilled, receives a blessing from God; but if it yields thorns and thistles, it is worthless and close to being cursed, and it ends up being burned.

This passage is similar to I Corinthians 3:11-5 in which Paul was addressing immature, carnal believers:

For no man can lay a foundation other than the one which is laid, which is Jesus Christ. Now if any man builds on the foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, straw, each man’s work will become evident; for the day will show it because it is to be revealed with fire, and the fire itself will test the quality of each man’s work. If any man’s work which he has built on it remains, he will receive a reward. If any man’s work is burned up, he will suffer loss; but he himself will be saved, yet so as through fire.

Often people assume from passages like these that “burned” and “fire” means hell and lost salvation. However, they reflect the numerous teachings of Jesus regarding rewards for earthly works done on behalf of Him. If a believer remains carnal and immature, he/she will not be rewarded at the judgment seat of Christ but will still remain saved. I consider you currently in that state but you don't have to remain there!

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Curtis697 said:

I first want to start by requesting that you'll only answer if you have a solid foundation on bible doctrines. Saying to me, "well that doesn't apply to you because God is love He wouldn't send you to hell; or well you care so you're saved;" will not help at all, nor is biblically sound. I desperately need help, but I need the help to be correct..

I grew up in a Christian home. It was forced on me by my parents, so naturally I rebelled against it in my teenage years. I became an, "atheist." Well one day, when I just turned 18, my football coach offered salvation through Jesus Christ to me. I declined, but due to circumstances set up by God, accepted his offer a week later. I chose to believe in Jesus Christ as savior, but He was not yet Lord. But God did deliver me from the insurmountable situation. I have been told my whole life that I have a Call of God on my life.

God called me to bible college in 2013, and I obeyed Him and went. There, I was heavily trained in Bible Theology, as well as ministry. I received hands-on experience with how to be used by the Holy Ghost as a vessel. I preached to people, was persecuted, had demons manifest around me, laid hands on the sick and saw miraculous healings, ect. (even saw a broken bone snap back into play with a loud, "pop" sound.)
The problem was that It was never truly about the Lord to me. I wanted to marry a girl that went to the college with me. She was an idol to me, and I never truly put God before her. I would only serve God with her in mind as the end result. It was never about the Lord Jesus Christ.

By the end of my time in the bible college in 2015, she decided to be with someone else, whom she is to this day married to. I left the bible college as well as the call of God on my life. I said to God, something to the extent of, "Jesus, God, Holy Spirit, I'm done with you."
I then began sinning intentionally with the specific intent and purpose of silencing the voice of the Holy Ghost in my heart. Since then, I have slept with 30 women, and have fallen into a more sinful state than I ever was previously in. 7 times worse sounds about right.

Since then, I have found myself in a place of absolute despair. I have found no place in my heart for repentance of any sort. I feel no sorrow for my sins, cannot hear from God, continue living a wicked lifestyle.. ect. I'm telling you, I cannot seem to break through this problem. I cry out day and night, but my heart remains wicked. If i'm honest, I only care because I know hell is at stake.

I can almost believe with certainty that nobody currently alive has studied Hebrews 6 more than I have. I have read what seems to be every commentary, every translation, and every interpretation many times over. I probably have, without exaggeration, put 100 hours study into Hebrews 6:4-6. I know the Calvanist, Armenian, and pretty much every other interpretation, as well as the flaws behind them.
The only interpretation that is completely flawed throughout is the one that says, "the writer is describing that it is impossible to fall away and lose your salvation." - the bible does not speak in such complex verbiage. It is made to where the simple minded can understand. I'm no slouch when it comes to the English Language, but trying to read it in the way they describe is completely confusing and asinine.

That being said, I have decided, based on 100 hours of research that this verse means either one of two things.

1. If a person is indulged in the things of God to the extent that I was, and does not backslide, but rather consciously turns their back on the faith.. then it is impossible that they, under any circumstance, ever return to repentance. It's not that God wouldn't forgive them if they did, but rather that their hearts will never be able to be changed, due to their prior exposal to the things of God.

2. If a person falls away after being in the fulness of the things of God, then it is impossible for any man to lead them back to the way of righteousness. (There are numerous scriptures in the NT talking about leading people going astray, back to repentance.) This interpretation says that BECAUSE they are crucifying to themselves the Son of God afresh, it is impossible. They cannot be reasoned with. But if they decide to, then they can come back.
I truly do not know which one of these is correct.

Does anybody have anything that I have missed? Does anybody have insight or a first hand experience related to this? All answered are greatly appreciated.



If you have read enough and just want answer the quick question, then stop here.. but i'm going to further expand on the backstory in this situation, to show you how crazy it really is if you keep reading.


6 months after leaving bible college, I got into a motorcycle accident that almost killed me. Before leaving the house that night, I felt something nudging at me as if insisting me to put on my motorcycle helmet, which i never would normally wear. My life was spared because of that.
In the hospital, I felt what I believed to be the presence of God, flooding the hospital room. It was to the point where even a single thought about God would make me begin weeping uncontrollably. I can't say that I've had such easy access to His presence in my lifetime.
However, in the hospital, I decided that when I recovered, I would go back into the world, once more. And so I did. This time, darker and deeper than before.

A year and a half goes by, and I meet a girl in Rhode Island. The way we met was as if supernatural coincidence set it up. (I'll spare the details but please take my word for it)… If anyone had met a person in this manner, and had the connection with the other person the way that we did, and they didn't know better.. they would think that God matched us up together. But I know what the voice of Jesus is like, and it was not Him orchestrating this meeting. I knew it was Satan.
Anyways, when I flew to see her a month later, we were staying together in a hotel for a week, doing nothing good.. when she went to take a shower. When I was sitting on the bed, I suddenly had a vision: I saw myself, with her. I saw in the vision, her distracting me... and hell was beneath us. I saw a large black arm rise out of hell, grab me, and pull me into hell. The vision was so profound and intense that it made my body physically jump, though I carried on in my life without paying any mind to it.
A year later, her and I broke up. I thought to myself, "well, at least the vision didn't come to pass." But, lo and behold; 6 month later, due to supernatural circumstance, we began speaking again, and ended up getting back together.
Well, my spirit man was constantly eating at me about this.. I could not shake the vision I had of me going to hell a year prior.
So I began to pray, more fervently than I have ever prayed before: With tears and screaming, I said "Jesus, if I'm going to end up fulfilling the vision by being with her, at least make it to where I know I'm on the way to hell without a shadow of a doubt!!"
The next morning I woke up to a text from my most radical Christian friend, who knows nothing about me. the text says the following message that I'm going to copy and paste:

"I felt God told me to anoint myself with oil and then to sit down and listen. I did so, and immediately I heard the word "friend". I continued to listen and set my heart upon Him, when I began to see a vision. It was you, walking behind a girl. I couldn't see her face at first, but only her back. She wore a long dress that followed behind her. She seemed to be young and beautiful. Delicacies like candy and color objects followed close to her.

I saw you and it seemed you were drawn to her, as if you wanted to be with her. You were attracted to her and had a desire to engage with her. You got close and even tried to touch her dress and even smell it; it seemed you would even taste it if you could.

The girl continued to walk with her back to me until I came closer to her front. I then saw her face and it looked like that of a living corpse, even a hideous insect. There was obvious evil and wickedness about her. She then turned to you and grabbed you and killed you in front of me. She left the scene and all I saw was your grave.

I was then taken to another vision in which I saw you with God. In this scene you had refused the woman and were drawn to the Lord. He showed you creation and brought you through mountains and valleys. You were both friends. He brought you before many people and you proclaimed the message of salvation to them. You were enraptured by Him and He with you.

In this scene I have just mentioned, you were consumed with love for God and it did not matter that you were single. Marriage was not even on your mind. You were fulfilled in your relationship with Jesus Christ. "

Terror struck my soul upon reading this text message. I contacted her and told her that we were over, and that I would never speak to her again. I also told her why. She was very understanding.. and it was deeply hurtful to both of us.
I, however, believe that I felt an absolute assurance from the Holy Ghost that I was a child of God at that point. I felt a peace beyond understanding, despite the immense pain, and breaking of my willpower this burdened me with.
The following 3 to 4 nights, I began pleading with God that He would allow me to be with her without it taking me to hell. I told God how much I loved her. I told God, "even if she isn't the best you have for me, I want to be with her. I love her." I talked to her about all of this and she ended up one night, saying a prayer to give her life to the Lord, and began taking it upon herself to read the word for hours on end, and pray. However, I was skeptical that it may have been a false conversion, just to get me back.

While I was seeking the answer.. I BELIEVE to have had the Lord say this to me... "I will allow you to marry her without it taking you to hell. However, if you do, you will never be able to fulfill the calling I have place upon your life."

I chose to marry her. It felt like I was doing the wrong thing, but I went through with it.
Now you're pretty much caught up to where I'm currently at.

What are your thoughts? Does Hebrews 6 describe the reason why I keep falling back into darkness, and just have not been able to truly repent?
Please, any advice is helpful. God bless.

Click to expand...

JimBeta said:

"How many times should we forgive?" they asked Jesus.
"7x70" He answered.
If Jesus asks us to forgive eachother, each time they repent, then why would He himself not do the same?

Click to expand...

Curtis697 said:

I first want to start by requesting that you'll only answer if you have a solid foundation on bible doctrines. Saying to me, "well that doesn't apply to you because God is love He wouldn't send you to hell; or well you care so you're saved;" will not help at all, nor is biblically sound. I desperately need help, but I need the help to be correct..

I grew up in a Christian home. It was forced on me by my parents, so naturally I rebelled against it in my teenage years. I became an, "atheist." Well one day, when I just turned 18, my football coach offered salvation through Jesus Christ to me. I declined, but due to circumstances set up by God, accepted his offer a week later. I chose to believe in Jesus Christ as savior, but He was not yet Lord. But God did deliver me from the insurmountable situation. I have been told my whole life that I have a Call of God on my life.

God called me to bible college in 2013, and I obeyed Him and went. There, I was heavily trained in Bible Theology, as well as ministry. I received hands-on experience with how to be used by the Holy Ghost as a vessel. I preached to people, was persecuted, had demons manifest around me, laid hands on the sick and saw miraculous healings, ect. (even saw a broken bone snap back into play with a loud, "pop" sound.)
The problem was that It was never truly about the Lord to me. I wanted to marry a girl that went to the college with me. She was an idol to me, and I never truly put God before her. I would only serve God with her in mind as the end result. It was never about the Lord Jesus Christ.

By the end of my time in the bible college in 2015, she decided to be with someone else, whom she is to this day married to. I left the bible college as well as the call of God on my life. I said to God, something to the extent of, "Jesus, God, Holy Spirit, I'm done with you."
I then began sinning intentionally with the specific intent and purpose of silencing the voice of the Holy Ghost in my heart. Since then, I have slept with 30 women, and have fallen into a more sinful state than I ever was previously in. 7 times worse sounds about right.

Since then, I have found myself in a place of absolute despair. I have found no place in my heart for repentance of any sort. I feel no sorrow for my sins, cannot hear from God, continue living a wicked lifestyle.. ect. I'm telling you, I cannot seem to break through this problem. I cry out day and night, but my heart remains wicked. If i'm honest, I only care because I know hell is at stake.

I can almost believe with certainty that nobody currently alive has studied Hebrews 6 more than I have. I have read what seems to be every commentary, every translation, and every interpretation many times over. I probably have, without exaggeration, put 100 hours study into Hebrews 6:4-6. I know the Calvanist, Armenian, and pretty much every other interpretation, as well as the flaws behind them.
The only interpretation that is completely flawed throughout is the one that says, "the writer is describing that it is impossible to fall away and lose your salvation." - the bible does not speak in such complex verbiage. It is made to where the simple minded can understand. I'm no slouch when it comes to the English Language, but trying to read it in the way they describe is completely confusing and asinine.

That being said, I have decided, based on 100 hours of research that this verse means either one of two things.

1. If a person is indulged in the things of God to the extent that I was, and does not backslide, but rather consciously turns their back on the faith.. then it is impossible that they, under any circumstance, ever return to repentance. It's not that God wouldn't forgive them if they did, but rather that their hearts will never be able to be changed, due to their prior exposal to the things of God.

2. If a person falls away after being in the fulness of the things of God, then it is impossible for any man to lead them back to the way of righteousness. (There are numerous scriptures in the NT talking about leading people going astray, back to repentance.) This interpretation says that BECAUSE they are crucifying to themselves the Son of God afresh, it is impossible. They cannot be reasoned with. But if they decide to, then they can come back.
I truly do not know which one of these is correct.

Does anybody have anything that I have missed? Does anybody have insight or a first hand experience related to this? All answered are greatly appreciated.



If you have read enough and just want answer the quick question, then stop here.. but i'm going to further expand on the backstory in this situation, to show you how crazy it really is if you keep reading.


6 months after leaving bible college, I got into a motorcycle accident that almost killed me. Before leaving the house that night, I felt something nudging at me as if insisting me to put on my motorcycle helmet, which i never would normally wear. My life was spared because of that.
In the hospital, I felt what I believed to be the presence of God, flooding the hospital room. It was to the point where even a single thought about God would make me begin weeping uncontrollably. I can't say that I've had such easy access to His presence in my lifetime.
However, in the hospital, I decided that when I recovered, I would go back into the world, once more. And so I did. This time, darker and deeper than before.

A year and a half goes by, and I meet a girl in Rhode Island. The way we met was as if supernatural coincidence set it up. (I'll spare the details but please take my word for it)… If anyone had met a person in this manner, and had the connection with the other person the way that we did, and they didn't know better.. they would think that God matched us up together. But I know what the voice of Jesus is like, and it was not Him orchestrating this meeting. I knew it was Satan.
Anyways, when I flew to see her a month later, we were staying together in a hotel for a week, doing nothing good.. when she went to take a shower. When I was sitting on the bed, I suddenly had a vision: I saw myself, with her. I saw in the vision, her distracting me... and hell was beneath us. I saw a large black arm rise out of hell, grab me, and pull me into hell. The vision was so profound and intense that it made my body physically jump, though I carried on in my life without paying any mind to it.
A year later, her and I broke up. I thought to myself, "well, at least the vision didn't come to pass." But, lo and behold; 6 month later, due to supernatural circumstance, we began speaking again, and ended up getting back together.
Well, my spirit man was constantly eating at me about this.. I could not shake the vision I had of me going to hell a year prior.
So I began to pray, more fervently than I have ever prayed before: With tears and screaming, I said "Jesus, if I'm going to end up fulfilling the vision by being with her, at least make it to where I know I'm on the way to hell without a shadow of a doubt!!"
The next morning I woke up to a text from my most radical Christian friend, who knows nothing about me. the text says the following message that I'm going to copy and paste:

"I felt God told me to anoint myself with oil and then to sit down and listen. I did so, and immediately I heard the word "friend". I continued to listen and set my heart upon Him, when I began to see a vision. It was you, walking behind a girl. I couldn't see her face at first, but only her back. She wore a long dress that followed behind her. She seemed to be young and beautiful. Delicacies like candy and color objects followed close to her.

I saw you and it seemed you were drawn to her, as if you wanted to be with her. You were attracted to her and had a desire to engage with her. You got close and even tried to touch her dress and even smell it; it seemed you would even taste it if you could.

The girl continued to walk with her back to me until I came closer to her front. I then saw her face and it looked like that of a living corpse, even a hideous insect. There was obvious evil and wickedness about her. She then turned to you and grabbed you and killed you in front of me. She left the scene and all I saw was your grave.

I was then taken to another vision in which I saw you with God. In this scene you had refused the woman and were drawn to the Lord. He showed you creation and brought you through mountains and valleys. You were both friends. He brought you before many people and you proclaimed the message of salvation to them. You were enraptured by Him and He with you.

In this scene I have just mentioned, you were consumed with love for God and it did not matter that you were single. Marriage was not even on your mind. You were fulfilled in your relationship with Jesus Christ. "

Terror struck my soul upon reading this text message. I contacted her and told her that we were over, and that I would never speak to her again. I also told her why. She was very understanding.. and it was deeply hurtful to both of us.
I, however, believe that I felt an absolute assurance from the Holy Ghost that I was a child of God at that point. I felt a peace beyond understanding, despite the immense pain, and breaking of my willpower this burdened me with.
The following 3 to 4 nights, I began pleading with God that He would allow me to be with her without it taking me to hell. I told God how much I loved her. I told God, "even if she isn't the best you have for me, I want to be with her. I love her." I talked to her about all of this and she ended up one night, saying a prayer to give her life to the Lord, and began taking it upon herself to read the word for hours on end, and pray. However, I was skeptical that it may have been a false conversion, just to get me back.

While I was seeking the answer.. I BELIEVE to have had the Lord say this to me... "I will allow you to marry her without it taking you to hell. However, if you do, you will never be able to fulfill the calling I have place upon your life."

I chose to marry her. It felt like I was doing the wrong thing, but I went through with it.
Now you're pretty much caught up to where I'm currently at.

What are your thoughts? Does Hebrews 6 describe the reason why I keep falling back into darkness, and just have not been able to truly repent?
Please, any advice is helpful. God bless.

Click to expand...

Samaritan Woman said:

Curtis697 -



It seems that you are pulling Hebrews 6:4-6 out of context which is quite common. To begin with, it is assumed by most scholars that the letter's recipients were Jewish Christians and/or Gentile Christians who were being drawn back into the practices and requirements of the Mosaic Law by the Judaizers which were nullified by Jesus' death and resurrection. Consider Hebrews 6:1-2 which precludes the warning of verses 4-6 -

Therefore leaving the elementary teaching about the Christ, let us press on to maturity, not laying again a foundation of repentance from dead works and of faith toward God, of instruction about washings and laying on of hands, and the resurrection of the dead and eternal judgment.

In other words, it can be inferred these immature believers were disregarding the basic doctrines of the faith in lieu of the Judaizer's false teachings .

While verse 6 does use the word “repentance”, it is often assumed to mean “salvation” thus inducing fear within those Christians leading a rebellious lifestyle that they have lost their salvation. However, “repentance” in the Greek has nothing to do with that; rather it means a “reversal of mind; abhorrence of one's past sins”. Additionally, consider Hebrews 6:7-8



For ground that drinks the rain which often falls on it and brings forth vegetation useful to those for whose sake it is also tilled, receives a blessing from God; but if it yields thorns and thistles, it is worthless and close to being cursed, and it ends up being burned.

This passage is similar to I Corinthians 3:11-5 in which Paul was addressing immature, carnal believers:

For no man can lay a foundation other than the one which is laid, which is Jesus Christ. Now if any man builds on the foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, straw, each man’s work will become evident; for the day will show it because it is to be revealed with fire, and the fire itself will test the quality of each man’s work. If any man’s work which he has built on it remains, he will receive a reward. If any man’s work is burned up, he will suffer loss; but he himself will be saved, yet so as through fire.

Often people assume from passages like these that “burned” and “fire” means hell and lost salvation. However, they reflect the numerous teachings of Jesus regarding rewards for earthly works done on behalf of Him. If a believer remains carnal and immature, he/she will not be rewarded at the judgment seat of Christ but will still remain saved. I consider you currently in that state but you don't have to remain there!

Click to expand...

Curtis697 said:

When I would minister at certain times, actually, before i even got the chance to mention Jesus.. this guy actually started getting angry and said to me, "i don't want anything to do with your Jesus. " and proceded to punch me in the face. Hence why i say demons manifested.

I have an example of that one.

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