How can creation week be literal 24 hour days?

Jamsie said:

That you consider St. Augustine's thoughts to be "self-conflicted and oft-conflicted ramblings of the ancients" speaks volumes. Augustine, Aquinas, and others are as relevant today as they were then. ...

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Amen to that

Ex 20
8 “Remember the Sabbath day, to keep it holy. 9 Six days you shall labor and do all your work, 10 but the seventh day is a sabbath of the Lord your God; in it you shall not do any work, you or your son or your daughter, your male or your female servant or your cattle or your sojourner who stays with you. 11 For in six days the Lord made the heavens and the earth, the sea and all that is in them, and rested on the seventh day; therefore the Lord blessed the sabbath day and made it holy.


Ex 16
11 And the Lord spoke to Moses, saying, 12 “I have heard the grumblings of the sons of Israel; speak to them, saying, ‘At twilight you shall eat meat, and in the morning you shall be filled with bread; and you shall know that I am the Lord your God.’”
...
22 Now on the sixth day they gathered twice as much bread, two omers for each one. When all the leaders of the congregation came and told Moses, 23 then he said to them, “This is what the Lord meant: Tomorrow is a sabbath observance, a holy Sabbath to the Lord. Bake what you will bake and boil what you will boil, and all that is left over put aside to be kept until morning.” 24 So they put it aside until morning, as Moses had ordered, and it did not become foul nor was there any worm in it. 25 Moses said, “Eat it today, for today is a sabbath to the Lord; today you will not find it in the field. 26 Six days you shall gather it, but on the seventh day, the Sabbath, there will be none.”
27 It came about on the seventh day that some of the people went out to gather, but they found none. 28 Then the Lord said to Moses, “How long do you refuse to keep My commandments and My instructions?

Genesis 2
Thus the heavens and the earth were completed, and all their hosts. 2 By the seventh day God completed His work which He had done, and He rested on the seventh day from all His work which He had done. 3 Then God blessed the seventh day and sanctified it, because in it He rested from all His work which God had created and made.

So then many good examples of a 7 day week - where the english term "week" is not there. Still ... easy for the reader to see it.

Jamsie said:

If as the Bible plainly states that the word of God is the sole operative agent of creation then by any logic what follows must be explanatory.

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If as the Bible states the work was fully completed by the 7th day then by any logic what follows each statement on each day -- is the completion of the work as stated each day such that by the 7th day it is done.

again "the details" your argument "must avoid" in its blind appeal to Augustine over scripture.

You would have to suggest that God's command was insufficient,

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nonsense.

The argument that when God SAYS "in six days the Lord MADE..." we should then wildly imagine to ourselves that it would be "suggesting God's word is insufficient" to actually believe that "in six days the Lord MADE..." is an argument I find hard to take seriously


Are you really suggesting that?

============== question for you --

you have given me the 'easy task' of just believing "that in six days the LORD MADE ... and that by the 7th day all the work was done.

You on the other hand have left yourself with the very difficult task of trying to re-work the text so that to believe "that in six days the Lord MADE.." and then rested at the completion of all the work on the 7th day -- is not correct at all and one must imagine "in six days the Lord made nothing".

So here is my question for that steep uphill slogging you have assigned yourself... what is your incentive for all that gymnastics and creativity??

Jamsie said:

It is only an uphill slogging when one is involved in the labor of researching and studying scripture,

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Still it would be good if you would answer the question. You have left me with the easy task of accepting what the text says ... and to you you have left the difficult task of having to avoid those 3 key texts I keep quoting.

You feel quite comfortable sitting at the base of the hill

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In fact -- a level plain because I merely have to accept the text for what it says -- instead of being forced to "avoid the text" at every turn in a desperate attempt to get my argument "can survive it".

You counter with massive inference and extreme speculation -- ok fine. You have free will ... you can choose such fluff if you wish. I will stick with the Word of God.

Jamsie said:

So you reject Psalm 33:6, Hebrews 11:3, and 2 Peter 3:5

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Not even remotely.

You employ the logical fallacy of "either or" when in fact the truth is "both-and" -- The text of Genesis 1:2-2:3 says God both spoke and acted such that he had finished his work by the 7th day.

Just when wild speculation and extreme inference would "imagine for us" that "God did nothing" by the 7th day.

Were we simply "not supposed to notice"??

BobRyan said:

Thanks for that.

In any case how nice that you highly affirm the guy that says your "did nothing in 6 days" idea is sooo wrong that in fact God did it all in less than 6 days. I find your position there less than consistent in that you affirm the guy that says you are even more wrong than I would claim.

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You are welcome...and as per usual you are so quick not to understand what has been posted you just go off like a broken record. You are welcome none the less and though you pick and choose:

"Augustine (354-430) was a philosopher and theologian and the most famous and influential of the church fathers for the Latin (Western) church. After his conversion, memorably described in his Confessions, Augustine became a priest and soon a bishop in Hippo in northern Africa.

His most famous writings include On the Trinity and City of God, in which he described human history as an ongoing struggle between two kingdoms – the city of God and the city of man.

Augustine is the preeminent member of the great tradition of Christian Platonism, and his thought had an enormous impact both on the Scholastics of the medieval period and on the Protestant Reformers."

BobRyan said:

So then many good examples of a 7 day week - where the english term "week" is not there. Still ... easy for the reader to see it.

If as the Bible states the work was fully completed by the 7th day then by any logic what follows each statement on each day -- is the completion of the work as stated each day such that by the 7th day it is done.

again "the details" your argument "must avoid" in its blind appeal to Augustine over scripture.

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The problem is that that you do not understand the "work", and that is clearly from your total misreading of the creation narrative. This has been pointed out to you but your blind appeal to the rigid interpretation regardless of what the narrative plainly states allows for your "fluff" without due consideration.

BobRyan said:

nonsense.
The argument that when God SAYS "in six days the Lord MADE..." we should then wildly imagine to ourselves that it would be "suggesting God's word is insufficient" to actually believe that "in six days the Lord MADE..." is an argument I find hard to take seriously
Are you really suggesting that?

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I'm strongly suggesting that you are too myopic to actually logically deal with the Genesis creation narrative. Again, perhaps you need to sharpen your reading comprehension skills...what I said was that God's word was all-sufficient...you are the one who is attempting to deny this by saying no spoke wasn't sufficient he had to make too. Again, show me that said and made are synonyms?

BobRyan said:

you have given me the 'easy task' of just believing "that in six days the LORD MADE ... and that by the 7th day all the work was done.
You on the other hand have left yourself with the very difficult task of trying to re-work the text so that to believe "that in six days the Lord MADE.." and then rested at the completion of all the work on the 7th day -- is not correct at all and one must imagine "in six days the Lord made nothing".

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Again, you are so anxious to constantly regurgitate the same things over and over that you fail to ever address what I have posted. Why not take a deep breath and try and read what has been said, and what scripture plainly states.

This is what I wrote but of course you failed to respond or acknowledge thus the inane above sentence. Post #197 - "What was completed was God's command to "Let the land bring forth or produce vegetation/living creatures/ etc. That is what the Bible states though you appear to reject that God's spoken commands were all sufficient and that he had to have "made" directly, when actually the narrative clearly states that He spoke a process and through that process made...to not see that is to wrench-bend scripture.

Again, it might be helpful if you actually comprehended what was written and responded to it, instead you prefer to just copy and paste what has already been addressed by me.

BobRyan said:

So here is my question for that steep uphill slogging you have assigned yourself... what is your incentive for all that gymnastics and creativity??

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First, I would suggest that it is not gymnastics or creativity so the it is an innocuous question, should I ask you if you study the Bible and seek amplification from Theologians, Bible scholars, scientists? I would suggest that you do not now or have ever really taken a close look at Genesis/Creation...just like you don't read or understand the posts.

BobRyan said:

You have left me with the easy task of accepting what the text says ... and to you you have left the difficult task of having to avoid those 3 key texts I keep quoting.

In fact -- a level plain because I merely have to accept the text for what it says -- instead of being forced to "avoid the text" at every turn in a desperate attempt to get my argument "can survive it".

You counter with massive inference and extreme speculation -- ok fine. You have free will ... you can choose such fluff if you wish. I will stick with the Word of God.

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No, your texts have been answered just like I noted above your reading comprehension skills appear quite lacking...this time I'm not going back to show you that your generalizations were answered. I truly hope that you stick to the word of God as opposed to reading through without considered rumination...you have failed to answer my questions but want me to answer yours.

BobRyan said:

Not even remotely.
You employ the logical fallacy of "either or" when in fact the truth is "both-and" -- The text of Genesis 1:2-2:3 says God both spoke and acted such that he had finished his work by the 7th day.

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So what you are suggesting is that God spoke but then had to make...which would be both/and. And it is not a false dilemma because the scriptures that were given support that "And God said, …" was all sufficient. Therefore, "God made" is explanatory...unless of course you are saying that God made each various shrubs, plants, trees, animals, birds, etc. by hand...does God have hands? OR since the command was a mediate one directed at created matter, land, water, etc.) perhaps "God setting in motion all of the laws for the incipient powers, elements, material, etc. as to the natural processes of phenomena to be produced? The immutable God ordered the processes then throughout history and just as we see today."

BobRyan said:

Just when wild speculation and extreme inference would "imagine for us" that "God did nothing" by the 7th day. Were we simply "not supposed to notice"??

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Again, since you are obviously not prone to reading all of this was answered but you wouldn't know that unless you read the posts. One should read with some care, may do well to closely read Genesis again, and again if necessary.

Still many questions you have not or refuse to address, so perhaps you can refrain from simply make superficial remarks about illusive, fluff, straw men, twisting words, etc. and actually address the information you seem intent on avoiding.

BobRyan said:

You counter with massive inference and extreme speculation -- ok fine. You have free will ... you can choose such fluff if you wish. I will stick with the Word of God.

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I have countered you directly from scripture and it seems, for instance that you have difficulty understanding the difference between said and made. Now this was further explained as to completion and use but again you simply choose not to read or comprehend what has been said. (and it is either /or not both/and...scripture does not allow that)

I take the subject seriously because I have spent years, many books, and such searching out Genesis. If you simply want to avoid a serious discussion but prefer to continue ,making pejorative remarks, without foundation, then let us call it a day so as you don't have to answer the questions or actually comprehend what is written. Other wise I would suggest that we limit it all to a limited range of questions at a time. For example:

The distinction between said and made, and how Said conforms to both the specific day and what Completion entails. Your choice.........….

Jamsie said:

I have countered you directly from scripture

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Well in real life - you have countered by completely ignoring the texts I keep bringing back up to you from Genesis 2:1-3, from Exodus 20:8-11, from Exodus 16.

I think we both know that.

and it seems, for instance that you have difficulty understanding the difference between said and made.

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Let's try this again

"For in six days the LORD MADE..." Exodus 20:11 is this where you are struggling?

OR how about Gen 2:1-3 "COMPLETED

Thus the heavens and the earth were finished, and all the host of them.
2 And on the seventh day God ended his work which he had made; and he rested on the seventh day from all his work which he had made.
3 And God blessed the seventh day, and sanctified it: because that in it he had rested from all his work which God created and made.

What part of "MADE" are you not getting??

Now this was further explained as to completion and use but again you simply choose not to read or comprehend what has been said. It is BOTH-AND God both SPOKE and MADE ... as Genesis 1:2-2:3 and Exodus 20:11 remind us.

Were we simply "not supposed to notice"

I take the subject seriously because I have spent years, many books, and such searching out Genesis

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That would be nice ... and so how is it you appear to be stuck "on the easy part"??

. If you simply want to avoid a serious discussion but prefer to continue ,making pejorative remarks, without foundation, then let us call it a day so as you don't have to answer the questions or actually comprehend what is written.

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That is pretty funny. are you sure you do not notice a "pejorative remark" in that statement? Or did we all just imagine it??

For example:The distinction between said and made .

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And we have BOTH in Genesis 1:2-2:3 are you just not reading the posts... or the text??

Genesis 1:3 "And God said..."
Genesis 1:4 "And God divided.." vs 5 "the first day"
Genesis 1:6 "And God said..."
Genesis 1:7 "And God MADE.." vs 8 "the second day"
Genesis 1:9 "And God said..." vs 13 "the third day"
Genesis 1:14 "And God said ..."
Genesis 1:16 "And God MADE.." vs 19 "the fourth day"

Genesis 2
Thus the heavens and the earth were finished, and all the host of them.
2 And on the seventh day God ended his work which he had made; and he rested on the seventh day from all his work which he had made.
3 And God blessed the seventh day, and sanctified it: because that in it he had rested from all his work which God created and made.

What part of "MADE" are you not getting??

. 11 For in six days the Lord made the heavens and the earth, the sea and all that is in them, and rested on the seventh day; therefore the Lord blessed the sabbath day and made it holy.

Jamsie said:

So what you are suggesting is that God spoke but then had to make...which would be both/and. .

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"suggesting"???

Are you not reading the text?

You seem to be imagining even as I point you to the very details you spin it back as "me suggesting" -- deal with the text as a starting point.

Ex 20
8 “Remember the Sabbath day, to keep it holy. 9 Six days you shall labor and do all your work, 10 but the seventh day is a sabbath of the Lord your God; in it you shall not do any work, you or your son or your daughter, your male or your female servant or your cattle or your sojourner who stays with you. 11 For in six days the Lord made the heavens and the earth, the sea and all that is in them, and rested on the seventh day; therefore the Lord blessed the sabbath day and made it holy.

It is hard to take your argument seriously when you keep positioning it as if the only way it can survive is by ignoring the very details in the text that have refuted it.

In the "details" God both "said..." and "made" in each day and then at the end of the consecutive six days completed "his WORK which He had MADE" .. the very point where you want to argue "He made nothing"... which of course would be you inserting fiction just at the point that the text refutes it.

BobRyan said:

What part of "MADE" are you not getting??
"suggesting"???
Are you not reading the text?
You seem to be imagining even as I point you to the very details you spin it back as "me suggesting" -- deal with the text as a starting point.

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This was answered in the previous post...I've read the text countless times, have you? I mean really studied the text... deal with what the text actually states.

BobRyan said:

It is hard to take your argument seriously when you keep positioning it as if the only way it can survive is by ignoring the very details in the text that have refuted it.

In the "details" God both "said..." and "made" in each day and then at the end of the consecutive six days completed "his WORK which He had MADE" .. the very point where you want to argue "He made nothing"... which of course would be you inserting fiction just at the point that the text refutes it.

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It is a weak argument when one resorts to the construction of straw persons...can you please show me where exactly I stated that "He made nothing"? If you are unable to do so it would seem that someone else is inserting "fiction", and as one is unable to actually engage in the discussion they deem it appropriate to wallow is such nonsense.

Again, this is addressed in post #210. I understand that it is difficult to take my argument seriously when you have a superficial understanding of the narrative. You have not in any way understood the relationship between SAID and MADE so hopefully the previous post will give some reason to consider...though it seems you are quite obdurate in this regard.

Again, what you fail to address is the clauses of each day where "And God said,..." is the independent clause and subsequent clause are dependent to that main clause. Therefore, the completion is based on the command so that what has been completed is God's fiat. This has been said elsewhere but again you don't seem to actually read what has been answered or said.

As for "time" you force God into your time frame when the mediate nature of the commands require no such limitation...except with a simplistic reading. Again, the commands are for 5 of the days clearly and incontrovertibly mediate. The question raised as to completion was asked as to exactly why if Gen. 1:3 states plainly "And God said, Let there be light and there was light..." why then would not the subsequent commands follow the same structure if immediacy was intended? However, all of the following commands are directed at pre-existing matter. If immediacy/completion was what was to be stated why then do not the commands state "And God said, Let there be vegetation and there was vegetation..." or "And God said, Let there be living creatures and there was living creatures..."? My answer is that the completion was to the certain efficacy of the God's commands, which is very much inline with scripture.

2 Peter 3:8 so closely aligned with 2 Peter 3:5, perhaps because God's time is not our time. It need not be taken as exactly 1,000 years = 1 day but rather to have us understand that God's time/timing is very different than our concept of time. Any attempt to fit an infinite God into a finite box is simply the folly of man. 6 days equals a work week, whether God did so consecutively or sequentially over time by His command matters little to the overall. So when the Bible states "in six days" you force them into your time frame when God's time frame may be much different though finally it comes into our understanding of time. Again, one can read scripture with a closed mind or can be open to the reasoned and scriptural possibilities of a God we can not know "from beginning to end"

Jamsie said:

This was answered but again you simply ignore or just continue to have comprehension deficits. When "made" is used within the narrative it is explanatory, ​

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Your practice of carefully deleting the actual text to then post a highly speculative remark as-if that is some sort of better-substitute for detail ignored, or substantive proof for "speculation preferred" is not compelling to someone who does not already share your preferences.

Genesis 1:3 "And God said..."
Genesis 1:4 "And God divided.." vs 5 "the first day"
Genesis 1:6 "And God said..."
Genesis 1:7 "And God MADE.." vs 8 "the second day"
Genesis 1:9 "And God said..." vs 13 "the third day"
Genesis 1:14 "And God said ..."
Genesis 1:16 "And God MADE.." vs 19 "the fourth day"

Genesis 2
Thus the heavens and the earth were finished, and all the host of them.
2 And on the seventh day God ended his work which he had made; and he rested on the seventh day from all his work which he had made.
3 And God blessed the seventh day, and sanctified it: because that in it he had rested from all his work which God created and made.

What part of "MADE" are you not getting??

. 11 For in six days the Lord made the heavens and the earth, the sea and all that is in them, and rested on the seventh day; therefore the Lord blessed the Sabbath day and made it holy.

Jamsie said:

So what you are suggesting is that God spoke but then had to make...which would be both/and. .

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"suggesting"???

Are you not reading the text?

You seem to be imagining even as I point you to the very details you spin it back as "me suggesting" -- deal with the text as a starting point.

Ex 20
8 “Remember the Sabbath day, to keep it holy. 9 Six days you shall labor and do all your work, 10 but the seventh day is a sabbath of the Lord your God; in it you shall not do any work, you or your son or your daughter, your male or your female servant or your cattle or your sojourner who stays with you. 11 For in six days the Lord made the heavens and the earth, the sea and all that is in them, and rested on the seventh day; therefore the Lord blessed the sabbath day and made it holy.

It is hard to take your argument seriously when you keep positioning it as if the only way it can survive is by ignoring the very details in the text that have refuted it.

In the "details" God both "said..." and "made" in each day and then at the end of the consecutive six days completed "his WORK which He had MADE" .. the very point where you want to argue "He made nothing"... which of course would be you inserting fiction just at the point that the text refutes it.

Jamsie said:

It is a weak argument when one resorts to the construction of straw persons...can you please show me where exactly I stated that "He made nothing"?

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It is possible that you are arguing that he said and made what he said inside the chronological time-boxed sequence just as stated. In which case you would have been agreeing with me this entire time.

Not sure any of us saw that coming.

Jamsie said:

Again, you need to address this if you disagree "On each day it is clear that God has not Done something but rather to have Said something, not to have Made something but to have Commanded something." .

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oh no wait! I guess I did not post a straw-man after all.

Genesis 1:3 "And God said..."
Genesis 1:4 "And God divided.." vs 5 "the first day"
Genesis 1:6 "And God said..."
Genesis 1:7 "And God MADE.." vs 8 "the second day"
Genesis 1:9 "And God said..." vs 13 "the third day"
Genesis 1:14 "And God said ..."
Genesis 1:16 "And God MADE.." vs 19 "the fourth day"

Genesis 2
Thus the heavens and the earth were finished, and all the host of them.
2 And on the seventh day God ended his work which he had made; and he rested on the seventh day from all his work which he had made.
3 And God blessed the seventh day, and sanctified it: because that in it he had rested from all his work which God created and made.

What part of "MADE" are you not getting??

. 11 For in six days the Lord made the heavens and the earth, the sea and all that is in them, and rested on the seventh day; therefore the Lord blessed the Sabbath day and made it holy.

BobRyan said:

It is a historic report of fact. Deleting "made" in all historic accounts would have horrific results.
This is the the obvious detail such that by the 7th day it was "completed".​

Your practice of carefully deleting the actual text to then post a highly speculative remark as-if that is some sort of better-substitute for detail ignored, or substantive proof for "speculation preferred" is not compelling to someone who does not already share your preferences.

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Please show me where I hinted or implied deleting "made"? Please show me where exactly I've deleted texts? Please show what details I've ignored?

BobRyan said:

Genesis 1:3 "And God said..."
Genesis 1:4 "And God divided.." vs 5 "the first day"
Genesis 1:6 "And God said..."
Genesis 1:7 "And God MADE.." vs 8 "the second day"
Genesis 1:9 "And God said..." vs 13 "the third day"
Genesis 1:14 "And God said ..."
Genesis 1:16 "And God MADE.." vs 19 "the fourth day"

Genesis 2
Thus the heavens and the earth were finished, and all the host of them.
2 And on the seventh day God ended his work which he had made; and he rested on the seventh day from all his work which he had made.
3 And God blessed the seventh day, and sanctified it: because that in it he had rested from all his work which God created and made.

What part of "MADE" are you not getting??

. 11 For in six days the Lord made the heavens and the earth, the sea and all that is in them, and rested on the seventh day; therefore the Lord blessed the sabbath day and made it holy.



"suggesting"???

Are you not reading the text?

You seem to be imagining even as I point you to the very details you spin it back as "me suggesting" -- deal with the text as a starting point.

Ex 20
8 “Remember the Sabbath day, to keep it holy. 9 Six days you shall labor and do all your work, 10 but the seventh day is a sabbath of the Lord your God; in it you shall not do any work, you or your son or your daughter, your male or your female servant or your cattle or your sojourner who stays with you. 11 For in six days the Lord made the heavens and the earth, the sea and all that is in them, and rested on the seventh day; therefore the Lord blessed the sabbath day and made it holy.

It is hard to take your argument seriously when you keep positioning it as if the only way it can survive is by ignoring the very details in the text that have refuted it.

In the "details" God both "said..." and "made" in each day and then at the end of the consecutive six days completed "his WORK which He had MADE" .. the very point where you want to argue "He made nothing"... which of course would be you inserting fiction just at the point that the text refutes it.



It is possible that you are arguing that he said and made what he said inside the chronological time-boxed sequence just as stated. In which case you would have been agreeing with me this entire time.

Not sure any of us saw that coming.



oh no wait! I guess I did not post a straw-man after all.

Genesis 1:3 "And God said..."
Genesis 1:4 "And God divided.." vs 5 "the first day"
Genesis 1:6 "And God said..."
Genesis 1:7 "And God MADE.." vs 8 "the second day"
Genesis 1:9 "And God said..." vs 13 "the third day"
Genesis 1:14 "And God said ..."
Genesis 1:16 "And God MADE.." vs 19 "the fourth day"

Genesis 2
Thus the heavens and the earth were finished, and all the host of them.
2 And on the seventh day God ended his work which he had made; and he rested on the seventh day from all his work which he had made.
3 And God blessed the seventh day, and sanctified it: because that in it he had rested from all his work which God created and made.

What part of "MADE" are you not getting??

. 11 For in six days the Lord made the heavens and the earth, the sea and all that is in them, and rested on the seventh day; therefore the Lord blessed the sabbath day and made it holy.

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I fail to see any response to what has been written, if you prefer to simply regurgitate the same material over and over it is rather pointless I fully understand your inability to actually respond or address what has been said but to simply avoid.

Jamsie said:

Please show me where I hinted or implied deleting "made"? Please show me where exactly I've deleted texts? Please show what details I've ignored?

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I post the text of Genesis 1, and 2 and Exodus 20:11 saying "made" and you respond with "not MADE - but said"

Jamsie said:

Again, you need to address this if you disagree "On each day it is clear that God has not Done something but rather to have Said something, not to have Made something but to have Commanded something." .

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And you explicitly rejected my solution of "both said AND made" in each of the 24 hour consecutive days - in that chronological time-boxed sequence given in the historic account of Genesis 1-2

BobRyan said:

I post the text of Genesis 1, and 2 and Exodus 20:11 saying "made" and you respond with "not MADE - but said"

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Where did I say "not made"? Here is what I wrote: "This was answered but again you simply ignore or just continue to have comprehension deficits. When "made" is used within the narrative it is explanatory, when it is used elsewhere the question that should come to a reasoned person's mind is HOW? and that is explained in the narrative...which you choose to ignore. So let's try again...

Let's go beyond your superficial reading of Genesis. Although in our English translations we are accustomed to reading in verses, in Hebrew they are arbitrary, rather they are a set of clauses. A clause represents a single thought, a clause can be independent or dependent. An independent clause can stand on it's own while a dependent clause "depends" on the independent clause and does not stand alone.

So for example when one reads Gen. 1:24-25 it is clear that "And God said, Let the land produce..." it is the main clause (independent) all clauses following would then be dependent. Thus when the Bible says "God made" it is dependent on "God said" therefore explanatory and should be understood in the HOW? context. In other words Made must be joined with SAID.

What you have done by confusing SAID and MADE is to cause God's command to be ineffective requiring further action in terms of MADE, unless you understand how made functions to SAID. As noted this is supported by Psalm 33:6, Hebrews 11:3, and 2 Peter 3:5 along with the proper reading of the creation narrative. The proper way is to understand MADE is it being dependent on SAID which prompts the conjoining of How with MADE. SAID is independent and MADE is dependent, otherwise it is simply an unnecessary redundancy. This is what you are ignoring or simply are incapable of understanding...that is exactly what the creation text says...unequivocally."

BobRyan said:

And you explicitly rejected my solution of "both said AND made" in each of the 24 hour consecutive days - in that chronological time-boxed sequence given in the historic account of Genesis 1-2

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No, actually I didn't but if you read carefully what was said was: "MADE only has meaning when it is joined with SAID which explains the how of being MADE. The only way that one can not distort the text by both/and is to define MADE with HOW to arrive at SAID".

What I mean quite clearly from the narrative is that MADE must be in reference to SAID...because HOW God MADE was by word or thought - spoke/said. If one doesn't see that made must refer to how and thus said...then in fact all of the supporting scriptures and Genesis are wrong as God's spoken command would NOT be all-sufficient. In addition the references in Exodus or anywhere else fall under the same defining obligation.

Clearly, I did not say anything approaching deleting "made" but rather defined and explained it's usage which is totally in line with scripture. No, I did not delete any texts, and No ignoring of details...in fact the opposite.

Jamsie said:

Again, you need to address this if you disagree "On each day it is clear that God has not Done something but rather to have Said something, not to have Made something but to have Commanded something." .

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Jamsie said:

Where did I say "not made"?

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I find your logic "illusive" just then.

Jamsie said:

So for example when one reads Gen. 1:24-25 it is clear that "And God said, Let the land produce..." it is the main clause

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More Bible ... less "creative writing" please.

====================

Genesis 1:3 "And God said..."
Genesis 1:4 "And God divided.." vs 5 "the first day"
Genesis 1:6 "And God said..."
Genesis 1:7 "And God MADE.." vs 8 "the second day"
Genesis 1:9 "And God said..." vs 13 "the third day"
Genesis 1:14 "And God said ..."
Genesis 1:16 "And God MADE.." vs 19 "the fourth day"

Genesis 2
Thus the heavens and the earth were finished, and all the host of them.
2 And on the seventh day God ended his work which he had made; and he rested on the seventh day from all his work which he had made.
3 And God blessed the seventh day, and sanctified it: because that in it he had rested from all his work which God created and made.

What part of "MADE" are you not getting??

. 11 For in six days the Lord made the heavens and the earth, the sea and all that is in them, and rested on the seventh day; therefore the Lord blessed the sabbath day and made it holy.

Jamsie said:

What you have done by confusing SAID and MADE is to cause God's command to be ineffective

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utter nonsense .. you write as if I authored the text that you apparently so disapprove of that you cannot even bring yourself to admit the details highlighted for you over and over again.

It is the text that keeps putting "said" and "made" together for each day ... just when you insist it does not exist.

How "instructive" for the unbiased objective reader.

Jamsie said:

"MADE only has meaning when it is joined with SAID .

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utter nonsense. you do it only by the tactic of ignoring entirely the texts I keep quoting for you -- about a dozen times by now.

Case in point.

in the last text of this sequence it is EXACTLY the case of "made" without "said" having full meaning.


Genesis 1:3 "And God said..."
Genesis 1:4 "And God divided.." vs 5 "the first day"
Genesis 1:6 "And God said..."
Genesis 1:7 "And God MADE.." vs 8 "the second day"
Genesis 1:9 "And God said..." vs 13 "the third day"
Genesis 1:14 "And God said ..."
Genesis 1:16 "And God MADE.." vs 19 "the fourth day"

Genesis 2
Thus the heavens and the earth were finished, and all the host of them.
2 And on the seventh day God ended his work which he had made; and he rested on the seventh day from all his work which he had made.
3 And God blessed the seventh day, and sanctified it: because that in it he had rested from all his work which God created and made.

What part of "MADE" are you not getting??

. 11 For in six days the Lord made the heavens and the earth, the sea and all that is in them, and rested on the seventh day; therefore the Lord blessed the Sabbath day and made it holy.

read.

Then respond to the detail in the texts given because they are the texts for this thread topic.

Doveaman said:

I do believe, however, that all six days of creation week were literal 24 hour days.

But how do we give such a literal explanation to anyone who ask, since the literal evidence (the sun made on day four) does not seem to support it?

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1. There is evening and morning "the third day" when plants are made.
2. There is evening and morning "the fourth day" when sun and moon are made "two great lights"

Regardless of what the "light source" was for day 3 - is it your argument that it is more logical to argue that the plants existed for "1 billion years before the sun" -- as compared to the Bible text that says they existed for "1 day" before the sun?

In other words ... "where is the problem"???