How can anything created by The Lord be evil?

[Hismessenger]

And God saw everything that he had made, and behold, [it was] very good. This statement is not saying that everything that was made was good but rather that everything He had made was very good for the purpose He created it for. This is born out in the first verse of chapter two.

Gen 2:1 ¶ Thus the heavens and the earth were finished, and all the host of them.

Notice it says and all the host of them. In other words all things that made up heaven and earth and the entire creation. Some things which we will never know in this life, but He created them for His purpose and if it has purpose in His creation it is very good for that purpose. Don't believe it, take a good look at the accuser and tell me if he is not very good at what he does to our harm.

hismessenger

 

[bibleblevr]

God is creating what he wants. What seems like a long process to us is a fraction of a second to God. Also, God is not in the business of controlling minds.

If he is creating what he wants, then why does he choose to use evil? Is there no other way to make a perfect or beautiful being? If so, then how where the angels made before Lucifer fell? If not, then God made evil unnecessarily.( Or as I believe for use in the process of creating us, which he finds beautiful)

the only way to resolve this problem is to except that evil has a value in the present. God is continuing to allow it to exist, since he has the power to stop it, evil working in the world, is his "responsibility"(for lack of a better word). Knowing that God is good and all powerful, leads us to the conclusion that evil working in the present time is for good. Coupled with the argument in the above paragraph, describing that the end product is not logically God's only desire, we must conclude that the process we go through is also good and beautiful to God. It is the main reason for evil, it is the story being told not just the happily ever after, at the last page.

By the way, God doesn't need to control minds. He creates them with their original abilities and potentials, then he shapes them by placing situations that he foreknew and he people he made. He controls our nature and nurture our mind's decisions are subject to him in the same way our bodies are subject to him. We can not turn one hair on our head white or black as Jesus says. what makes us think that we have sovereign control over our minds.

 

[DonnyT]

If he is creating what he wants, then why does he choose to use evil? Is there no other way to make a perfect or beautiful being? If so, then how where the angels made before Lucifer fell? If not, then God made evil unnecessarily.( Or as I believe for use in the process of creating us, which he finds beautiful)

This is going into a whole other subject, but, in a nutshell, I believe evil is necessary to understand good. A completely "good" being would not know good from evil since it knows no evil. That's why God put the "tree of knowledge of good and evil" in the Garden of Eden. I also believe the whole story of an angel turning against God is somewhat hard to swallow because God would simply not have created him in the first place. Also, what would cause that angel to turn evil if evil never existed before it?

the only way to resolve this problem is to except that evil has a value in the present. God is continuing to allow it to exist, since he has the power to stop it, evil working in the world, is his "responsibility"(for lack of a better word). Knowing that God is good and all powerful, leads us to the conclusion that evil working in the present time is for good. Coupled with the argument in the above paragraph, describing that the end product is not logically God's only desire, we must conclude that the process we go through is also good and beautiful to God. It is the main reason for evil, it is the story being told not just the happily ever after, at the last page.

Agreed.

By the way, God doesn't need to control minds. He creates them with their original abilities and potentials, then he shapes them by placing situations that he foreknew and he people he made. He controls our nature and nurture our mind's decisions are subject to him in the same way our bodies are subject to him. We can not turn one hair on our head white or black as Jesus says. what makes us think that we have sovereign control over our minds.

Agreed to a certain degree. God gives us free will, but it's only as free as God allows. God does not create the "end product" (or perfect humans) because we would be "good" with no knowledge of good or evil; in essence, God would be controlling us.

 

[sungaunga]

Evil originates from fallen creatures. but indeed God allowed it, it did not take Him by surprise. But God's role with regard to evil is never as its author. He simply permits evil agents to work, then overrules evil for His own wise and holy ends. Ultimately He is able to make all things-including all the evil of all time-work together for a greater good.

 

[Hismessenger]

I can never understand how people continually say God allowed it like something happened which God had not foreordained and He decides at that point to let it stand. That's not the God of The creation. The God of the creation is never taken by surprise and has to allow anything. We weren't even around to make any decisions when God planned out the creation and made the choices that we would ultimately make so how is it that He allows. Can you explain that feat of human logic against the word. WE would have to have been there while He was creating the creation and made a choice which he then allowed in order for the allowance to be valid. Can you not here the absurdity in that statement.

hismessenger

 

[DonnyT]

I can never understand how people continually say God allowed it like something happened which God had not foreordained and He decides at that point to let it stand. That's not the God of The creation. The God of the creation is never taken by surprise and has to allow anything. We weren't even around to make any decisions when God planned out the creation and made the choices that we would ultimately make so how is it that He allows. Can you explain that feat of human logic against the word. WE would have to have been there while He was creating the creation and made a choice which he then allowed in order for the allowance to be valid. Can you not here the absurdity in that statement.

hismessenger

Agreed. So what you're saying is, "yes God did create evil," knowing full well what evil is and having His own intentions for it. Perhaps God created an evil entity (Lucifer) to work in opposite ways of Himself as a balance of the universe?

 

[bibleblevr]

This is going into a whole other subject, but, in a nutshell, I believe evil is necessary to understand good. A completely "good" being would not know good from evil since it knows no evil. That's why God put the "tree of knowledge of good and evil" in the Garden of Eden. I also believe the whole story of an angel turning against God is somewhat hard to swallow because God would simply not have created him in the first place. Also, what would cause that angel to turn evil if evil never existed before it?

Agreed to a certain degree. God gives us free will, but it's only as free as God allows. God does not create the "end product" (or perfect humans) because we would be "good" with no knowledge of good or evil; in essence, God would be controlling us.

I agree that evil is necessary to understand good, for us humans. That is what I usually tell atheists if they pull up the issue of evil. However, I always cross my fingers and hope they don't ask the preceding question," So, why did God make good only understandable in light of evil then?" Furthermore, if they wanted to continue the attack, they could add that God can see Jesus as Beautiful and Jesus doesn't have any flaws, why can't we be built like Jesus? The fact is, God created everything about our reality, including evil and its necessity for beauty. He could have created us in a way that doesn't need evil to understand good, or even doesn't need more than one chose to have free-will. To borrow an analogy of another thread, God could make a square circle if he wanted. In fact, if he wanted, he could make a rock so big he couldn’t lift it, and then he could lift it. After that he could make that whole interaction logically sound.

Evil is quite puzzling. I am lead to the belief that evil is not a necessity, but rather an artistic touch. Art is useless for anything but beauty, looking at a poem objectively, one would conclude that it is a very inefficient means of conveying a point, it could be done in a less cumbersome way. Neither is it an effective way of describing a scene or an emotion. The objective observer would find that making a structure detailing the number of syllables in any particular line is needless. So it is with evil. It has no "purpose" because any of it's effects could be replicated in another way, by an all-powerful, and extremely creative God. Why he believes that it is the most beautiful color to paint with, is a question I am theologically comfortable with saying that I don't know. To try to find out why, would require examining all possibilities of what could replace it, using logic, the likes of which, we may not have access to in our universe. Then, we would have to know God fully enough to select which option appeals to him most. However I am confident that this would be a foolish and impossible exercise. God has already chosen that evil is what he will use. What it boils down to is that God is God and what he has chosen to exist is what he desires most, because he is all-powerful, what he desires most, is what he would logically what to exist.


By the way in response to the second paragraph, Oh no! lets not turn this into another endless free-will vs predestination type thread.

 

[DonnyT]

I agree that evil is necessary to understand good, for us humans. That is what I usually tell atheists if they pull up the issue of evil. However, I always cross my fingers and hope they don't ask the preceding question," So, why did God make good only understandable in light of evil then?"

Because evil is the opposite of good.

Furthermore, if they wanted to continue the attack, they could add that God can see Jesus as Beautiful and Jesus doesn't have any flaws, why can't we be built like Jesus?

Once again, God doesn't make us good like Jesus because we wouldn't understand evil.

The fact is, God created everything about our reality, including evil and its necessity for beauty. He could have created us in a way that doesn't need evil to understand good, or even doesn't need more than one chose to have free-will. To borrow an analogy of another thread, God could make a square circle if he wanted. In fact, if he wanted, he could make a rock so big he couldn’t lift it, and then he could lift it. After that he could make that whole interaction logically sound.

Evil is quite puzzling. I am lead to the belief that evil is not a necessity, but rather an artistic touch. Art is useless for anything but beauty, looking at a poem objectively, one would conclude that it is a very inefficient means of conveying a point, it could be done in a less cumbersome way. Neither is it an effective way of describing a scene or an emotion. The objective observer would find that making a structure detailing the number of syllables in any particular line is needless. So it is with evil. It has no "purpose" because any of it's effects could be replicated in another way, by an all-powerful, and extremely creative God. Why he believes that it is the most beautiful color to paint with, is a question I am theologically comfortable with saying that I don't know. To try to find out why, would require examining all possibilities of what could replace it, using logic, the likes of which, we may not have access to in our universe. Then, we would have to know God fully enough to select which option appeals to him most. However I am confident that this would be a foolish and impossible exercise. God has already chosen that evil is what he will use. What it boils down to is that God is God and what he has chosen to exist is what he desires most, because he is all-powerful, what he desires most, is what he would logically what to exist.

By the way in response to the second paragraph, Oh no! lets not turn this into another endless free-will vs predestination type thread.

I agree to a certain degree. Perhaps life is just that; life. A means in which we become who we are.

 

[bling]

This is just restating the question that keeps on being asked, because we are giving very poor answers to the agnostics, skeptics and Muslim world.
If you want to hear something different and the way I have been explaining it to agnostics one on one with lots of questions follow this line of thought:
1. There are things God cannot do and one of them is making an agent that automatically has Godly type Love, that would be a robotic type of love.
2. Something can be very good in God’s sight, yet not be perfect like Christ is perfect because God cannot make a human that has Godly type Love without the agent choosing to at least accept that Love (Jesus always Loved and was not created).
3. God created humans in the first place, because His Love compelled Him to make agents that would (at least some would) Love like God Loves (this is both the greatest Gift God could give and the greatest power in the universe since it compels even God to do all He does.)
4. God will quench His own personal desires to help in every way, willing individuals to fulfill their objective. (God cannot force them to accept His Love but is totally unselfish in trying to get them to accept His Love).
5. There has to be a real choice in accepting God’s Love, it is not “take this or I torture you to death”, but for humans it is accept my love or pursue the perceived pleasures of sin for at least a season.
6. Adam and Eve prior to sinning did not have Godly type Love (…if you Love me you will obey me…), but would have had a very strong wonderful child to wonderful parent type of Love. The problem with their Garden situation (which is pointed out to them and all of us) is they did not have to humble themselves to accept “charity” (mercy/ grace/ Love/ forgiveness) because they had done nothing wrong. They had their needed human egos, which can also produce selfishness.
7. The Garden was a lousy place for humans to fulfill their objectives and sin (although hated) has a purpose. Sin is not a problem, but unforgiven sin is a huge problem.

 

[DonnyT]

This is just restating the question that keeps on being asked, because we are giving very poor answers to the agnostics, skeptics and Muslim world.
If you want to hear something different and the way I have been explaining it to agnostics one on one with lots of questions follow this line of thought:
1. There are things God cannot do and one of them is making an agent that automatically has Godly type Love, that would be a robotic type of love.
2. Something can be very good in God’s sight, yet not be perfect like Christ is perfect because God cannot make a human that has Godly type Love without the agent choosing to at least accept that Love (Jesus always Loved and was not created).
3. God created humans in the first place, because His Love compelled Him to make agents that would (at least some would) Love like God Loves (this is both the greatest Gift God could give and the greatest power in the universe since it compels even God to do all He does.)
4. God will quench His own personal desires to help in every way, willing individuals to fulfill their objective. (God cannot force them to accept His Love but is totally unselfish in trying to get them to accept His Love).
5. There has to be a real choice in accepting God’s Love, it is not “take this or I torture you to death”, but for humans it is accept my love or pursue the perceived pleasures of sin for at least a season.

Again this comes down to the question of whether we have free will at all.

6.

Adam and Eve prior to sinning did not have Godly type Love (…if you Love me you will obey me…), but would have had a very strong wonderful child to wonderful parent type of Love. The problem with their Garden situation (which is pointed out to them and all of us) is they did not have to humble themselves to accept “charity” (mercy/ grace/ Love/ forgiveness) because they had done nothing wrong. They had their needed human egos, which can also produce selfishness.
7. The Garden was a lousy place for humans to fulfill their objectives and sin (although hated) has a purpose. Sin is not a problem, but unforgiven sin is a huge problem.

So what your basically saying is that God gives us a reason to love Him through sin and redemption?

 

[bibleblevr]

Because evil is the opposite of good.

Why can't butterflies be the opposite of good? Why does Good need an opposite at all?, If the response is, "Well everything needs an opposite" then the question becomes, "Why did God make our reality like that? Why does reason have to work that way?"

Once again, God doesn't make us good like Jesus because we wouldn't understand evil.

But Jesus understands evil, and he is not evil why can't we be like him? What ever campacity Jesus has to understand evil and not be tainted by it, could be given to us in God wanted to give it.

 

[DonnyT]

Why can't butterflies be the opposite of good? Why does Good need an opposite at all?, If the response is, "Well everything needs an opposite" then the question becomes, "Why did God make our reality like that? Why does reason have to work that way?"

That's God creating order out of chaos. Why do we need order? Because order is good and God is good.

But Jesus understands evil, and he is not evil why can't we be like him? What ever campacity Jesus has to understand evil and not be tainted by it, could be given to us in God wanted to give it.

You have to understand that it is possible for Jesus to understand both good and evil because Jesus is also God. IMO evil cannot exist where God exists because He is good. The exception to that rule is God himself because He is omniscient. If there were creatures who knew evil, they would essentially be evil. But, I think God overcomes this by making us good through the sacrifice of Jesus.

 

[bling]

Again this comes down to the question of whether we have free will at all.

So what your basically saying is that God gives us a reason to love Him through sin and redemption?

You cannot Love like God Loves without free will.

Unfortunately we seem to need a good reason to humble ourselves to the point of accepting charity.

 

[DonnyT]

You cannot Love like God Loves without free will.

Unfortunately we seem to need a good reason to humble ourselves to the point of accepting charity.

Yes; IMO we have a "relative free will." No one can say their will is truly free since all things are under God's control. But since we do not know our destiny's we make our own choices as best as we can. God doesn't leave us without direction, however. The "charity" as you put it (I'm assuming you mean Jesus' sacrifice) is a way of directing our wills (drawing us to God)

 

[bling]

Yes; IMO we have a "relative free will." No one can say their will is truly free since all things are under God's control. But since we do not know our destiny's we make our own choices as best as we can. God doesn't leave us without direction, however. The "charity" as you put it (I'm assuming you mean Jesus' sacrifice) is a way of directing our wills (drawing us to God)

It is more than just "relative free will".
The gift God is trying to give all humans is the gift of Godly type Love, which is the greatest gift He could give and is the greatest power in the universe, since it is the power that compels God Himself to do what He does. God cannot force this love on us (Love or I shoot you) and God can not make us so we have Godly type Love automatically (it is not robotic type love). It must be accepted as a free undeserving and unconditional gift (Charity).
God is doing all and everything He can to help those that are just a little willing to accept His gift and that everything includes allowing: Christ going to the cross, satan to roam the earth, tragedies, hell, heaven and even sin to happen.

 

[DonnyT]

It is more than just "relative free will".
The gift God is trying to give all humans is the gift of Godly type Love, which is the greatest gift He could give and is the greatest power in the universe, since it is the power that compels God Himself to do what He does. God cannot force this love on us (Love or I shoot you) and God can not make us so we have Godly type Love automatically (it is not robotic type love). It must be accepted as a free undeserving and unconditional gift (Charity).
God is doing all and everything He can to help those that are just a little willing to accept His gift and that everything includes allowing: Christ going to the cross, satan to roam the earth, tragedies, hell, heaven and even sin to happen.

Free will thread
http://www.christianforums.com/t7437315/

 

[Hismessenger]

In order to answer this question, first we must define evil. Not according to our own understanding but according to what the bible has to say about it.

hismessenger

 

[_JJM]

How can anything created by The Lord be evil?

Im writing this post because of something i read some time ago.
During the time of Crommwell, (late 17th century) There was a group of Christians, of which the name has slipped me for the moment who had the following thesis: "God has created all, thus God has created sin. All that God has created is good, thus sin is good."
This leads to the following question: How can evil exists if the being that we refer to as Our Father, created only good? And if He created evil, surely this must have a purpose?

When discussing this problem, i usually reach the answer that He might be testing us, but why? Surely The Lord can know what is there with His knowledge?
For myself, i reached the conclusion wich some Theologists had reached during the age of enlightenment: They made the comparison between The Lord and a clockmaker. This means that He did, indeed, create the world and paradise, but He no longer actively influences the world. Thus it is clear that man would be the creator of sin.

I would like to have your personal thoughts on this subject, as I find that the thoughts of others are often refreshing.

Praise to The Father,

Oriax

God made the flesh, it was good.

God made man, he was good.

God made the law (knowledge of Good and Evil), it was good.

God commanded Man to not ingest the law, this was good.

Man disobeyed and ate the fruit, gained consciousness of law, this was bad.

Man + Flesh in enmity against God with knowledge of Law, this was bad.

Man dies in wickedness because of law.

Everything God made was good.

Man disobeyed and mixed law with flesh = wickedness.

God = Good
Man = Wicked

 

[Jpark]

Never mind.

 

[yashua1970]

Im writing this post because of something i read some time ago.
During the time of Crommwell, (late 17th century) There was a group of Christians, of which the name has slipped me for the moment who had the following thesis: "God has created all, thus God has created sin. All that God has created is good, thus sin is good."
This leads to the following question: How can evil exists if the being that we refer to as Our Father, created only good? And if He created evil, surely this must have a purpose?

When discussing this problem, i usually reach the answer that He might be testing us, but why? Surely The Lord can know what is there with His knowledge?
For myself, i reached the conclusion wich some Theologists had reached during the age of enlightenment: They made the comparison between The Lord and a clockmaker. This means that He did, indeed, create the world and paradise, but He no longer actively influences the world. Thus it is clear that man would be the creator of sin.

I would like to have your personal thoughts on this subject, as I find that the thoughts of others are often refreshing.

Praise to The Father,

Oriax

Well that should be very simple.

Is a Gun evil or the person with a wrong intention?

Is a lion evil for ripping a child apart, even though the lion was hungry?

Everything God has made is good as God stated, but what man does with what God has made with an intention not for the betterment of mankind is what we humans would call evil. I don't think we have spiritually evolved enough to "know" what the "knowledge of good and evil" really represents.

Is suffering, dying children an evil thing to "allow?"
I would think so, but there might be a greater reason beyond us as to "why" something like this even happens?
This whole world "could" end any type of hunger, but why doesn't it?
Is there a greater force at work that does not allow it to end?
If so, what is it that "we" don't comprehend from this injustice to humanity?

I used to hate hearing it so much, but "God works in mysterious ways"