How can anything created by The Lord be evil?

[Oriax]

Im writing this post because of something i read some time ago.
During the time of Crommwell, (late 17th century) There was a group of Christians, of which the name has slipped me for the moment who had the following thesis: "God has created all, thus God has created sin. All that God has created is good, thus sin is good."
This leads to the following question: How can evil exists if the being that we refer to as Our Father, created only good? And if He created evil, surely this must have a purpose?

When discussing this problem, i usually reach the answer that He might be testing us, but why? Surely The Lord can know what is there with His knowledge?
For myself, i reached the conclusion wich some Theologists had reached during the age of enlightenment: They made the comparison between The Lord and a clockmaker. This means that He did, indeed, create the world and paradise, but He no longer actively influences the world. Thus it is clear that man would be the creator of sin.

I would like to have your personal thoughts on this subject, as I find that the thoughts of others are often refreshing.

Praise to The Father,

Oriax

 

[Spartan Warrior]

If God is Lord of lords, King of kings, the Alpha and Omega and all the Greek letters in between He must have totall control over all good and evil.

Im writing this post because of something i read some time ago.
During the time of Crommwell, (late 17th century) There was a group of Christians, of which the name has slipped me for the moment who had the following thesis: "God has created all, thus God has created sin. All that God has created is good, thus sin is good."
This leads to the following question: How can evil exists if the being that we refer to as Our Father, created only good? And if He created evil, surely this must have a purpose?

When discussing this problem, i usually reach the answer that He might be testing us, but why? Surely The Lord can know what is there with His knowledge?
For myself, i reached the conclusion wich some Theologists had reached during the age of enlightenment: They made the comparison between The Lord and a clockmaker. This means that He did, indeed, create the world and paradise, but He no longer actively influences the world. Thus it is clear that man would be the creator of sin.

I would like to have your personal thoughts on this subject, as I find that the thoughts of others are often refreshing.

Praise to The Father,

Oriax

 

[we are called]

God created us in His image: Free thinking and of free will. He gave us instructions on what we should do, but He gave us the free will to do as we choose.

I think that God still has enormous influence over the world, He's just picky about WHAT he influences. The same way that you let your child ride a bicycle, knowing that he could fall and hurt himself, God lets us learn and grow and the come to realize that His way really was the best way afterall: As the old saying goes, no matter the journey, there's no place like home.

 

[Biker Angel]

Read Isaiah 45:7
in the King James it says:
"I form the light and create darkness,
I make peace and create evil. I the Lord
do all these things."

Other versions say:
" I bring prosperity and create disaster/calamity."

Go Figure:o

 

[Spartan Warrior]

This might be true, but when it comes to salvation this is not scriptural. Now if the moderators will all God's people to debate in stead of control what needs to be said perhaps we can have true openness to explore God's Word openly.

God created us in His image: Free thinking and of free will. He gave us instructions on what we should do, but He gave us the free will to do as we choose.

I think that God still has enormous influence over the world, He's just picky about WHAT he influences. The same way that you let your child ride a bicycle, knowing that he could fall and hurt himself, God lets us learn and grow and the come to realize that His way really was the best way afterall: As the old saying goes, no matter the journey, there's no place like home.

 

[Spartan Warrior]

Who created who, who controls what?

Did Satan create God?
Did Satan pull the wool over God's eyes?
Is God; God or is just god and soverign only over good and evil is out of God's control?

 

[Gary777]

Sin is in fact anyting that doesnt come trough faith, that is doesnt have its source in God. (rom 14) The evil works we do, the perverted acts of sin, are just the fruit of not being connected to God. Yes, God must have created the possibility to not be connectet to God since we have choice. Sin as an active force trough fallen agenls and demosn was not created, but is originally good creatures that is no longer connected and works out form a pervertet form of Gods will. God creted worship because it is right and good to worship the creator. The act of worship exists in all evil creaturs but it is the dricetion that makes it wrong. Hate and violence is really not something that is created but is perverted forms of the ability to love. Love DOES attack enemies, but a perverted form loves himself more than others and attacks vicsiously others that that seems like a threat to its won evelated status.

All this is just free thinking, sorry if it doesnt make any sense.

 

[Hayzel]

God made everything perfectly. Adam and Eve in the Garden of Eden, all the angels and at one time, Satan was also perfect. However God gave us our own will. The tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil was also, not evil. It was simply a door. Eve and Adam ate the apple, which opened the door for sin because they disobeyed God.

In the beginning, what God made was good. We as humans messed it up, we were the ones who let Evil into the world.

Also, if you think about what we consider evil, it only related to humanity. Murder is when one man kills another, so if God takes someone away from us he is not murdering. To sin is to transgress, or disobey the law. Whatever God says, is law. We simply have to be careful that we are not defining God by our terms.

 

[Doucit2]

This is a very interesting thread proposing a question that often crops up when discussing the origin of all things with a logical atheist.

A while back I came across a (true) story that, for me, explained it very well......

Back in the early part of the 20th century there was a theology professor in a German university. He was a self described atheist and was renown throughout the country for his impeccable logic, and systematic dismantling of all those who argued against him. One of his most favored propositions, which he often liked to try on his christian students, was the following -
Do you believe the bible to be true? the student would answer yes
Do you believe that before God created all things, there was nothing? again, the answer was yes
So by implication, ALL things are from God, whether directly or indirectly? again, yes.
Do you believe there to be anything beyond Gods ability? the answer, no.
Do you believe God created the Devil with the capacity to be evil? since the Devil is evil, and you just conceded ALL things are from God, God must have been the first to conceive evil, and thus brought it forth from nothing. for if nothing is beyond Gods ability, he could have created free will, and the devil and all other things without the capacity for evil..
It was at this point most of his students were subdued....Until one day..
A young student, replied with the following questions for the professor -
Do you believe that cold exists? the professor mocking replied yes, of course it exists, have you never been cold??!!
The young student corrected the professor by saying, in fact cold does NOT exist, what we perceive to be cold is simply the absence of heat...there is no way of measuring coldness other than measuring how much heat is present. at absolute zero, there is no activity and nothing to measure.
He then went on, do you believe darkness exists? the professor cautiously answered yes, we all know of darkness, so it must exist.
again, the student corrected him by saying, darkness does NOT exist, for us it is simply the absence of light, for the only way to measure darkness is to measure the amount of light present. so as it goes for coldness and darkness, evil does NOT exist in its own right, it is simply the absence of God. Evil is the darkness men suffer when they don't have the presence of God in their heart.

I found this explanation the most accurate i have heard. incidentally, the student was Albert Einstein.

 

[miggles]

I'm not an Einstien fan but I think he was right on the absence of heat and light analogy.

There's a lot we don't understand fully so we just have to trust God that He knows what He's doing. There's a reason for good and evil. I think Mary said that evil exists so that we may be the better for it. Evil is like sandpaper to ragged wood. She didn't say that but I think that's what she meant. So I think that's why the Almighty created evil.

 

[miggles]

I'm not an Einstein fan but I tend to agree with his absence of heat and light analogy.

I think Mary said that evil exists so that we may be the better for it. Like sandpaper and rough wood. She didn't say it like that but I think that's about the closest explanation we have.

 

[Jeffwhosoever]

Mod Hat On​

Thread Moved From Formal Date To Hamartilogy​

Thread Now Re-opened​

Mod Hat Off​

 

[Jpark]

Im writing this post because of something i read some time ago.
During the time of Crommwell, (late 17th century) There was a group of Christians, of which the name has slipped me for the moment who had the following thesis: "God has created all, thus God has created sin. All that God has created is good, thus sin is good."
This leads to the following question: How can evil exists if the being that we refer to as Our Father, created only good? And if He created evil, surely this must have a purpose?

When discussing this problem, i usually reach the answer that He might be testing us, but why? Surely The Lord can know what is there with His knowledge?
For myself, i reached the conclusion wich some Theologists had reached during the age of enlightenment: They made the comparison between The Lord and a clockmaker. This means that He did, indeed, create the world and paradise, but He no longer actively influences the world. Thus it is clear that man would be the creator of sin.

I would like to have your personal thoughts on this subject, as I find that the thoughts of others are often refreshing.

Praise to The Father,

Oriax

We don't know.

All we know is this:

Evil is.

However, I believe God created all things good. I don't believe God created evil.

 

[bibleblevr]

God defiantly created evil. lets look at so typical arguments against this:

*God created only good, evil is an absence of good. my response is that God created the evil by not putting something in it's place. What if a surgeon didn't plug an artery and his patient bled to death, who created the problem?

* God gave us free-will so it is us who created evil. my response is that God must have known what we would do before he made us. He gave us "free-will" anyway thus bringing evil into existence.

* God made the world, and now the world is just playing out uninfluenced by God. Evil is a result of what the world has created. my response is that this suffers from both of the previous problems. He knew what the world would become and made it anyways and he has the ability to stop it and doesn't

* Evil is a test. my response is that God knows the result before the test, so whats the point?

* Satan made evil, my response is then why did God make Satan then? and if you mention "free-will" then check out the first argument.

* Evil is a tool to improve us. although this is true, God could have made us to be better to begin with.

My view is that God made evil to make our story more interesting. Any good book or movie has a villain and a struggle. God is not evil anymore than an author or a director is evil for the results of his masterpiece. God is not liable for evil acts anymore than J K Roweling should be punished for the acts on voldimort. If we could see the whole picture like God does and not just selected evil parts, we would agree that it is the most awesome and beautiful picture ever painted, and that the unfortunate shadows necessary only add to the effect.

 

[DonnyT]

Im writing this post because of something i read some time ago.
During the time of Crommwell, (late 17th century) There was a group of Christians, of which the name has slipped me for the moment who had the following thesis: "God has created all, thus God has created sin. All that God has created is good, thus sin is good."
This leads to the following question: How can evil exists if the being that we refer to as Our Father, created only good? And if He created evil, surely this must have a purpose?

When discussing this problem, i usually reach the answer that He might be testing us, but why? Surely The Lord can know what is there with His knowledge?
For myself, i reached the conclusion wich some Theologists had reached during the age of enlightenment: They made the comparison between The Lord and a clockmaker. This means that He did, indeed, create the world and paradise, but He no longer actively influences the world. Thus it is clear that man would be the creator of sin.

I would like to have your personal thoughts on this subject, as I find that the thoughts of others are often refreshing.

Praise to The Father,

Oriax

If God no longer actively influences the world, he has no power over it, therefor he is not all powerful. Wrong. There are many passages in the Bible that say that God created good and evil and allows evil. I go with your first theory that sin although is bad now, ultimately serves a good purpose. Think about it. Are you a better Christian because of sin? If you answered yes, the Heavens rejoice. If no, repent.

 

[DonnyT]

God defiantly created evil. lets look at so typical arguments against this:

*God created only good, evil is an absence of good. my response is that God created the evil by not putting something in it's place. What if a surgeon didn't plug an artery and his patient bled to death, who created the problem?

* God gave us free-will so it is us who created evil. my response is that God must have known what we would do before he made us. He gave us "free-will" anyway thus bringing evil into existence.

* God made the world, and now the world is just playing out uninfluenced by God. Evil is a result of what the world has created. my response is that this suffers from both of the previous problems. He knew what the world would become and made it anyways and he has the ability to stop it and doesn't

* Evil is a test. my response is that God knows the result before the test, so whats the point?

* Satan made evil, my response is then why did God make Satan then? and if you mention "free-will" then check out the first argument.

* Evil is a tool to improve us. although this is true, God could have made us to be better to begin with.

My view is that God made evil to make our story more interesting. Any good book or movie has a villain and a struggle. God is not evil anymore than an author or a director is evil for the results of his masterpiece. God is not liable for evil acts anymore than J K Roweling should be punished for the acts on voldimort. If we could see the whole picture like God does and not just selected evil parts, we would agree that it is the most awesome and beautiful picture ever painted, and that the unfortunate shadows necessary only add to the effect.

Interesting things are relative. Why would God care about an interesting story if it just serves the purpose of being interesting?

I go with your improvement theory. The "better to begin with" part is life as you see it. Life with all it's struggles and hardships is the "beginning."

 

[bibleblevr]

Interesting things are relative. Why would God care about an interesting story if it just serves the purpose of being interesting?

I go with your improvement theory. The "better to begin with" part is life as you see it. Life with all it's struggles and hardships is the "beginning."

why would he want an interesting story? well why do you like interesting stories? God, like us sympathies with the characters, loves them and watches as they overcome obstacles, defeat villains, and ultimately find themselves "happily ever after".

I believe that the improvement theory is incomplete. If all he cares about is the finished product after it has been improved to the extent he wishes, then he would simply created what he wanted immediately without a drawn out and often painful process. He can make angles without shaping them using evil, why not us to? this can not be the reason for evil because God could have avoided using evil altogether if he wanted.

God does not care about the end product, or the improved version of us, He cares about the progression! He likes the progression and if he didn't, he wouldn't require one to achieve the product(which is of course important too or it would not exist).

 

[DonnyT]

If all he cares about is the finished product after it has been improved to the extent he wishes, then he would simply created what he wanted immediately without a drawn out and often painful process.

God is creating what he wants. What seems like a long process to us is a fraction of a second to God. Also, God is not in the business of controlling minds.

 

[Austin Arreguin]

Read Isaiah 45:7
in the King James it says:
"I form the light and create darkness,
I make peace and create evil. I the Lord
do all these things."

Other versions say:
" I bring prosperity and create disaster/calamity."

Isaiah 45:7
The parallelism here shows that this is not to be understood in the sense of all evil, but of that which is the opposite of peace and prosperity. That is, God directs judgments, disappointments, trials, and calamities; he has power to suffer the mad passions of people to rage, and to afflict nations with war; he presides over adverse as well as prosperous events. The passage does not prove that God is the author of moral evil, or sin, and such a sentiment is abhorrent to the general strain of the Bible, and to all just views of the character of a holy God.

 

[holyrokker]

In Isaiah 45 God is speaking to Cyrus about 120 before he is born:
For the sake of my servant Jacob,
and Israel my chosen,
I call you by your name,
I name you, though you do not know me.
I am the LORD, and there is no other,
besides me there is no God;
I equip you, though you do not know me,
that people may know, from the rising of the sun
and from the west, that there is none besides me;
I am the LORD, and there is no other.
I form light and create darkness,
I make well-being and create calamity,
I am the LORD, who does all these things.
God is making a declaration of His sovereignty. He is telling Cyrus: "Look, I don't need your permission to accomplish my plans. I can and will use you for my purposes whether you go along with it or not.

There is nothing in the context to indicate that God "created" evil.

Evil is not a "thing"; neither is sin. Evil and sin are what grow from the intentions of a man's heart.
Do you commit sin? Do you plot and execute evil schemes? These come from within your own dark selfish heart.

The apostle Paul tells us that the love of money is a root of all kinds of evils.
God is not the originator of evil, for God cannot be tempted with evil, and he himself tempts no one. But each person is tempted when he is lured and enticed by his own desire. Then lust when it has conceived gives birth to sin, and sin when it is fully grown brings forth death.